Did Jesus Die For All Humanity?

[The Mighty Sword]

Only God knows Judas' heart.

God also knew Judas before the foundation of the world, So Judas betraying Jesus would have to have been predestined, God knowing all things would have known that. Thanks.

[Butch5]

Only God knows Judas' heart.

God also knew Judas before the foundation of the world, So Judas betraying Jesus would have to have been predestined, God knowing all things would have known that. Thanks.

Why would it have to be predestined?

[Butch5]

I believe that you are correct on both counts. People read Romans 7 as if the issue Paul were addressing was some kind of general treatment about the inability of humans to obey "general moral laws". Well, it may indeed be true that humans have that problem. But that is not what Paul is addressing in Romans 7.

Romans 7 is about the difficulty of the Jew keeping Torah.

The issue in Romans 7 is Torah:

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

This is Paul’s treatment about delivery from Torah. And who can be delivered from Torah? A Gentile? No. Paul is addressing Jews here – telling them that faith in Christ will deliver them from the bondage of Torah. This Torah-specificity of the introductory material to Romans 7 is a hint that what follows is not a treatment of Christians in general, but rather is about the Jew.

What Paul goes on to say here makes it clear that, in keeping with the Torah focus of the first part of chapter 7, the “I” of Romans 7 is not a Christian after all, but is rather a Jew under Torah:

For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

The commandment “Do not covet” is from the 10 commandments – delivered at Sinai. Verse 9 makes the case that the “I” is the Jew under Torah. Paul places himself at Sinai both pre-delivery and post-delivery of the 10 commandments (or more generally, the Torah). Before the Torah is given, Paul is “alive”, then the commandment is delivered, and then Paul dies.

Romans 7 is Paul's analysis of the plight of the Jew under Torah from Paul's Christian perspective.

Agreed, Paul is directing his argument to the Jews from 7:1 to 11:13.

[Butch5]

Alaska---The phrase, "the law of sin and death" is not found in the section you quoted but in the beginning of the next chapter where Paul continues his train of thought.

You are correct. However, notice what Paul says. There is therefore no condemnation. The word therefore means that he is drawing a conclusion based on what he has just said. In other words, based on what he said in chapter 7, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. The first verse of chapter 8 is based on what Paul said in chapter seven.

[Butch5]

Alaska---We deserved death but he died in our stead.


Isa. 53:
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


1 Pet. 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Neither of these say that a debt was owed. They teach that Christ died for sins but that does not have to be a debt. As I stated in the classic view Christ still died for sins. Isaiah would be the closest to supporting your position, however, I try not to use the English translations of the Hebrew OT because the use the Masoretic text. If you look at the Bible that Jesus and the apostles used you will find that Isaiah 53:6 reads differently.

Masoretic text from the KJV

Isaiah 53:4-8 ( KJV )
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The Septuagint, which is the Bible that Jesus and the apostles used.

4 He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction. 5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed. 6 All we as sheep have gone astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and the Lord gave him up for our sins.

There is a difference between the Lord giving him up and the Lord laying our iniquities on him.

For support I am posting this comparison.


Below are several New Testament quotes, I have given the the corresponding verses in the Old Testament, from both the Masoretic text which is the text used in almost all of the current English Bibles, and the Septuagint or the LXX, which is the Greek text used in the time of Christ. Notice how the Masoretic text does not follow the New Testament quotes as the Septuagint does. This is just a few, there are a lot more.

New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43

Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
Where are the words, "And let all the angels of God worship him"?

Septuagint
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.


New Testament
Hebrews 10:5 ( KJV ) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Psalm 40:6

Masoretic text
Psalms 40:6 ( KJV ) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Where are the words, " but a body hast thou prepared me:"? This is an important part to leave out since it speaks of the incarnation of Christ.

Septuagint
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.


New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31

Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) 31Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?



New Testament
Matthew 3:3 ( KJV ) 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Here Mtthew quotes Isaiah 40:3

Masoretic text
Isaiah 40:3 ( KJV ) 3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Septuagint
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.


New Testament
James 4:6 ( KJV ) 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Here James quotes Proverbs 3:34


Masoretic text
Proverbs 3:34 ( KJV ) 34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Septuagint
Proveerbs 3:34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.


New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13

Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.

New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) 16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.

Alaska---You have still not made it clear what exactly the deal is with you.
Lay it out plain.

What is it you would have me lay out?

[The Mighty Sword]

Butch5

Post # 167

To fullfill the prophecy!

[John146]

Knowing that Jesus died for all humanity, did he also die for those he knew would not come to him?
Example, Judas Iscariot.

Absolutely. Just because many deny Him doesn't mean that He didn't die for them so that they would have the opportunity to be saved. Just because God knows things beforehand doesn't mean He predetermined who would believe and who wouldn't. Look at this:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus died even for those false teachers who bring in heresies among the church. They denied the Lord by willful choice and not because they were not able to accept Him.

[BroRog]

Another way to get at this question is to ask,

When Jesus died on the cross, what actual transaction took place?

1) Jesus made an agreement to voluntarily allow himself to be murdered. And in exchange for that, God would accredit this act as "justice served."

If this is the case, Jesus didn't die for us, he died for God. God demanded justice and justice was done. God couldn't stand to allow evil to go unpunished and so he punished Jesus for sins that we did. It didn't matter to God who got punished as long as someone suffered for these sins. God wanted a killing to be done and he got it.

Also, forgiveness is unnecessary since justice has been served. It would be silly of me to ask God for forgiveness since he already accounted justice served. I don't owe God a thing since he took Jesus' murder as payment for my crimes. Once Jesus did that, I'm off the hook according to this scenario.

2) Jesus agreed to allow himself to be murdered in order that God might demonstrate his righteousness. He accepted this from Jesus as an appeasement of his wrath for all mankind in general, which opens the door for us to make our appeal to God for mercy.

In this scenario, Jesus didn't buy us forgiveness, he bought us reconciliation with God. Jesus didn't die for God, he died in order to mend our alienation from God, a separation resulting from the hostility between us, so that he might be free to forgive us and that we might be able to ask.

[Butch5]

Butch5

Post # 167

To fullfill the prophecy!

What prophecy would that be?

[Alaska]

You are correct. However, notice what Paul says. There is therefore no condemnation. The word therefore means that he is drawing a conclusion based on what he has just said. In other words, based on what he said in chapter 7, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. The first verse of chapter 8 is based on what Paul said in chapter seven.

Obviously I haven't said anything against your above correct conclusion.
Because of the introduction of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation to those truly in Christ Jesus because they are walking in a genuine good conscience no longer yielding themselves to the works of the flesh. This is not of themselves lest they should boast but by the grace working in them to both will and do of God's good pleasure, the ability to do now being possible by the new law (principle) that can override the strength of the still existing old law(principle).

[The Mighty Sword]

Butch 5, This prophecy, Forgive me, but are you serious?
The Prophecy of Christ!


Daniel 9:24-26


24 “ Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d]
Even in troublesome times.
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolation's are determined

[Alaska]

Neither of these say that a debt was owed.

The Masoretic doesn't seem to change it at all.

The scape goat from the OT also portrays the principle of sins being laid on another for payment to defer wrath.

The blood on the doorpost also symbolised blood for blood as a kind of exchange, which is extremely appropriate to the discussion seeing that Jesus is our passover; his blood for our blood as a substitute payment made by God in Jesus, presented to mankind to benefit from eternally on stipulation of meeting the conditions connected to the payment.

The wages of sin is death. A payment was owed us by declarion of God's unmoveable decree.
Christ's death was made as a substuitution for ours, like the blood on the doorposts.

What is it you would have me lay out?

Explain how Christ's death was payment and why.

[Butch5]

[UOTE]Alaska---The Masoretic doesn't seem to change it at all.

The scape goat from the OT also portrays the principle of sins being laid on another for payment to defer wrath.

The blood on the doorpost also symbolised blood for blood as a kind of exchange, which is extremely appropriate to the discussion seeing that Jesus is our passover; his blood for our blood as a substitute payment made by God in Jesus, presented to mankind to benefit from eternally on stipulation of meeting the conditions connected to the payment.

The wages of sin is death. A payment was owed us by declarion of God's unmoveable decree.
Christ's death was made as a substuitution for ours, like the blood on the doorposts.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't say the Masoretic text changed it, the Septuagint does.

Masoretic Text

Isaiah 53:6 ( KJV )
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Septuagint

6 All we as sheep have gone astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and the Lord gave him up for our sins.

The blood on the door posts symbolized that innocent blood would be shed in order to save the guilty. That fits my view just as easily as it fits yours. It does not have to be a payment. Again, you keep saying payment but we have no Scripture telling us a payment was necessary. Also you have spoken more than once of God's immovable decree, could you please provide Scripture?

Alaska---Explain how Christ's death was payment and why.

I have done this, Christ's death among other things, was a ransom to redeem mankind from the kingdom of darkness.

[Butch5]

Obviously I haven't said anything against your above correct conclusion.
Because of the introduction of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation to those truly in Christ Jesus because they are walking in a genuine good conscience no longer yielding themselves to the works of the flesh. This is not of themselves lest they should boast but by the grace working in them to both will and do of God's good pleasure, the ability to do now being possible by the new law (principle) that can override the strength of the still existing old law(principle).

I agree, only through the law of the Spirit can we overcome the flesh.

[Alaska]

Also you have spoken more than once of God's immovable decree, could you please provide Scripture?

Just because death of our bodies occurs, this does not mean that a second death to our souls has to be immediately at the same time.

Gen. 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eating of it in itself was a sin but notice what the tree was.
Before eating of this tree the knowledge of good and evil was not part of their reality. Simultaneous sentence of death for eating along with this knowledge that would only exacerbate this situation of their entering into sin and guilt.
Paul refers to this state experienced by all of mankind of sin having connection to knowledge through a fallen nature:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Since he is using 'thou shalt not covet' as his example, he is referring to law as pertaining to human conscience, in other words the basic knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil) inherited from Adam.
Receiving the knowledge of good and evil insured the continuation of sinfulness because they began to experience this new sinful nature as a result of receiving it. They in the garden had not been created to deal with "right and wrong" "good and evil". Hence their and our failures in that area and hence all have sinned and the wages of sin is death.


The payment, is a price, is a ransom. It has been payed for us so that we can now deal with right and wrong and not fail anymore but by walking in the Spirit, that "concupiscence" or fleshly nature to sin would no longer express itself to the extent of us committing sin. Not to say we will not be tempted like even Jesus was, but he did not yield and commit sin like his body now is also supposed to be not yielding and not sinning.

Ez. 18:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The NT reveals the prospect of eternal life not clearly revealed before. Likewise the reality of two deaths. The flesh and the soul.

Matthew 10:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This death of the soul is apparently designated to be performed at a time at the very end. So even those who have passed on way back at the beginning of time may be waiting in sleep (death) until they are awoken for the big gathering of the goats on the left and the sheep on the right.

Isaiah 53:6 ( KJV )

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Septuagint

6 All we as sheep have gone astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and the Lord gave him up for our sins.

If the way the Masoretic says it makes somehow a difference and is therefore not correct, I think we need an explanation.
To who or what did God pay the price of death in our stead by Jesus' death?
I say he was paying it to fulfil his own decree from the beginning that goes along with, 'the wages of sin is death': him being unable to change it because he cannot lie. He had to work within the boundaries that he had established and committed himself to. He said the wages of sin is death and he could not then counter his own word, Him being a man of his word.
If not so, then why was he constrained to make the payment? was it only to show that he loved us so much he was willing to die for us but with no real, as it were 'legal', bind or necessity?
Did he pay it to Satan?
And how did Satan have authority to require it, or how did a deal become arrived at, between God and Satan?