Atonement and propitiation are two words for the same thing, and neither one requires a victim. The only requirement is that the offended party accept a remedy of some kind.Atonement is a favorable exchange or reconciling back to God. Propitiation speaks of the atoning victim; e.g. Christ is the expiator.
This is kind of a tricky question. The bible says he died for all the sins of the world. That's not the question that needs asking. The question is whether Christs death on the cross, shedding of blood, and subsequent resurrection is effective for all the world (humanity) to be saved. Is it effectual in saving all, and the answer to that has to be no, because while Christ made the way to cross that great Chasm, it still takes a step of faith to come to him and accept that his sacrifice was sufficient for your own sins.
Oh c'mon guys. Are we "right fighting" here? John 3:16 settles it. "For God so loved the world (mankind) that He gave His only Son the whosoever (anyone who chooses to follow Him) believes in Him (God) should not perish but have everlasting life". God made the offer, man must accept it or it doesn't do him any good and he will be lost. It's that simple. One's salvation does not depend on another's interpretation of Scripture. As long as the above criteria is met one is saved.
John 3:16 settles why Christ came but not for whom definitively.
I know where you are coming from but theology does matter as it drives our work for the kingdom. Even those who espouse a "don't give me theology only the Bible" have a theology, it is usually just unnamed...
You are asking me to read every passage in that list before replying to you? I have three degrees in biblical studies and I have been in the word heavily for several years... while appreciate your invitation to read 1/3 of the Bible right now, I'll pass.
In fact, if the criteria of my being "wrong" or "Right" hinges upon that assignment, then you're right and I'm wrong...
Last edited by PilgrimPastor; May 30th 2009 at 02:03 PM.
Think of it this way. Did Christ die for all humanity? Yes. Mankind was in bondage to Satan and sin, Christ died to redeem mankind. He did that. Jesus said in John that man is condemned already because he does not believe, not because of sin. The problem is with Anselm's model of the atonement, which says that Christ paid the price for sins to appease the wrath of God. Under this model, if we say that Christ died for all of mankind, we wind up with universalism, or we haveto break it down and say was it effectual for all mankind? However, if we reject Anselm's model for the original model, the Classic view, which is much more in depth, we have Christ giving Himself as a sacrificial lamb to buy back (redeem) from the kidnapper (Satan) God's beloved creation. In the Classic view there is no payment to God. If we look at Scripture there is no mention of a payment to God. I believe there are serious problems with Anselm's model, the main one being this, if Christ paid the price for our sins, what is there for God to forgive? There is no need to forgive a debt that has been paid.
Good thoughts. Indeed the ransom theory makes sense of some of this but what about the rather highly elevated position it gives Satan? Christ HAD to die to buy us back from a being inferior to Himself? I'll admit that the warfare view and ransom theory do alleviate some of the problems with Anselm's understanding of the atonement, but is it perhaps at too high a price?
John is simply saying that Christ is the True Light, and that all "through Him" might believe. He is not saying, as you imply that Christ gives Light to every man. If he were he would be contradicting what he has already said.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
When John says, "which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" it is simply an expression denoting the whole human race. Jesus came to be a light to lighten the Gentiles, as well as the Jews.
Lu 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Scripture makes it plain that Christ being the Light that brings Light to the whole humanity does not mean that every man can or does embrace The True Light of Christ.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
So who will come to the True Light of Christ? Not the world because the world does not know Him (Pretty much encompasses every human). Not His own (Hebrew people; Jews) because His own will not receive Him. It is only those who receive Him, to them alone He GIVES (not offers) power to become sons of God. These alone believe on His name, being born of God alone (not of blood, not of the flesh, nor of the will of man)!
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This really isn't a very good comparison of salvation. We can use your analogy with a few changes to make is useful in defining how we become saved. The free gift of salvation, like a large inheritance, is GIVEN to our account but we don't have to do anything to receive the inheritance. It simply goes into our account because the One GIVING the inheritance has already done all the necessary work, and since this inheritance is ours because it is GIVEN by His grace, through His gift of faith, we simply receive all the benefits of salvation without any work at all to help save ourselves. We don't want to confuse obedience that comes after salvation with salvation by grace alone.
This is the way it must be because the GIVER of this great inheritance insists that His gift is of His grace alone, otherwise it will not be of His grace, but of debt. He (the GIVER of this inheritance) will not share His glory with us! Lest we begin to think He is some how indebted to us, giving us something we neither earn nor deserve...we MUST UNDERSTAND salvation is all of grace from beginning to end!
To answer the thread question, yes, of course Jesus died for all.
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