Did Jesus Die For All Humanity?

**gophgetter** · May 28th 2009, 02:42 AM

Greetings Everyone,

I have read in certain discussion groups that there are some believers that claim that Jesus did not die for all humanity but only for "the elect". I believe that in the five points of Calvinism that this doctrine is called "Limited Atonement". I personally cannot find this teaching in the scriptures. What are your thoughts on this?

Goph

**Slug1** · May 28th 2009, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by gophgetter

Greetings Everyone,

I have read in certain discussion groups that there are some believers that claim that Jesus did not die for all humanity but only for "the elect". I believe that in the five points of Calvinism that this doctrine is called "Limited Atonement". I personally cannot find this teaching in the scriptures. What are your thoughts on this?

Goph

That's why Calvinism is false teaching... cause of what your final sentence states.

***BrckBrln*** · May 28th 2009, 03:14 AM

Why do people go to hell if their sins have been paid for?

**Clydson** · May 28th 2009, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by BrckBrln

Why do people go to hell if their sins have been paid for?

There is a difference between having funds available and the funds being used according to the benefactor’s will.

Jake

***BrckBrln*** · May 28th 2009, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Clydson

There is a difference between having funds available and the funds being used according to the benefactor’s will.

Jake

So, in other words, it's up to us to apply salvation to ourselves?

**th1bill** · May 28th 2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by BrckBrln

Why do people go to hell if their sins have been paid for?

... In the 1950's there was a ma on Death Row, here in Texas, and his last hope was for a Presidential Pardon. Remarkably, the President signed his pardon and it was delivered to the prison but this gentleman refused to accept it. Not knowing how to proceed in this matter, the attorneys went to the Supreme Court. The Justices ruled that even though the President of the United States had granted him a pardon, he must be executed because he has refused service of that instrument.
... The same is true of Salvation, if you refuse to bend your knee to God and to accept the payment made by Christ on that cross, you will, by default, spend eternity in Hell.

**gophgetter** · May 28th 2009, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by BrckBrln

So, in other words, it's up to us to apply salvation to ourselves?

I would like to know what you think of the following scriptures?

1 Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

bagofseed · May 28th 2009, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by gophgetter

Greetings Everyone,

I have read in certain discussion groups that there are some believers that claim that Jesus did not die for all humanity but only for "the elect". I believe that in the five points of Calvinism that this doctrine is called "Limited Atonement". I personally cannot find this teaching in the scriptures. What are your thoughts on this?

Goph

Yes for All!
As the scriptures clearly say.

Tit 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

Not that all avail them selves of this gift:

Many consider the blood of Jesus worthless and remain under judgment.

Others still profess Him with words but deny Him by their actions.
Faithless cowards, full of unbelief, not relying on God for saving sanctification.
They do not believe in His power to transform them into the fullness of the stature of Jesus.
They insist against scripture that man will remain enslaved to sin as long as he lives.
They push aside any call of scripture to holiness and perfection in love.
Do not abandon your Hope in Jesus for a new nature!

It up to us to embrace faith in the one who saves!

***BrckBrln*** · May 28th 2009, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by gophgetter

I would like to know what you think of the following scriptures?

1 Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

To be honest, I have no desire to debate this. I was just wondering if how I presented this view was correct. Is it?

**th1bill** · May 28th 2009, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by BrckBrln

So, in other words, it's up to us to apply salvation to ourselves?

... No! If that were true it would be salvation by works and we would have something to be proud of. It's up to us to humble ourselves, admit that we are sinners in need of a Savior and to accept the free gift.

**Slug1** · May 28th 2009, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by BrckBrln

To be honest, I have no desire to debate this. I was just wondering if how I presented this view was correct. Is it?

Spell it our clearly... you saying that we have to do nothing and will still go to heaven cause Jesus died for all our sins?

***My heart's Desire*** · May 28th 2009, 04:44 AM

I believe Jesus died for all, but not all will have faith to believe.

**apothanein kerdos** · May 28th 2009, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by bagofseed

Yes for All!
As the scriptures clearly say.

Tit 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

If taken literally, that's universalism.

I think the passages used are as follows:

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. - John 10:14-15

This doesn't seem like much, but when coupled with verse 28:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Thus, if Christ lays His life down for His sheep, and His sheep will never slip away, but not everyone is His sheep, then it follows that He didn't die for everyone.

In all honesty, I find debate on limited atonement between exclusivist (regardless of their stance on Calvinism) to be silly. They're arguing about the same thing, but from different sides.

For the non-Calvinist, they say that the atonement is for everyone who will accept it. For the Calvinist, they say the atonement is only for those who are called in Christ. So, what's the difference?

There is none. If we take the Calvinist interpretation of John 10 and compare it to the non-Calvinist interpretation of John 3:16, we have a contradiction. If, however, we take each passage as they're meant to be taken, then both sides are wrong.

The Calvinists are wrong in saying that Christ's death wasn't for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone has the atonement actualized; and that's what Calvinism is talking about, the actualization of the atonement, not the offer. Obviously the offer is out there, but due to man's total depravity (according to Calvinism) he won't accept it unless chosen.

Likewise, from the other spectrum, they say the atonement is offered to everyone, but then turn around say that if someone rejects it, it doesn't affect that person. Well...that's limited atonement.

So both sides just take it to the extreme before realizing that both John 10 and John 3:16 work together. One talks about the offer while the other talks about the effect.

bagofseed · May 28th 2009, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by BrckBrln

Why do people go to hell if their sins have been paid for?

I am not sure people will be held guilty of what has been payed for.

What I do know is that there is only one sin that is not, will not be forgiven?

Your are either cleansed by His blood or held guilty of it.

Everything culminates in Jesus.

***Moxie*** · May 28th 2009, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by apothanein kerdos

If taken literally, that's universalism.

I think the passages used are as follows:

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. - John 10:14-15

This doesn't seem like much, but when coupled with verse 28:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Thus, if Christ lays His life down for His sheep, and His sheep will never slip away, but not everyone is His sheep, then it follows that He didn't die for everyone.

In all honesty, I find debate on limited atonement between exclusivist (regardless of their stance on Calvinism) to be silly. They're arguing about the same thing, but from different sides.

For the non-Calvinist, they say that the atonement is for everyone who will accept it. For the Calvinist, they say the atonement is only for those who are called in Christ. So, what's the difference?

There is none. If we take the Calvinist interpretation of John 10 and compare it to the non-Calvinist interpretation of John 3:16, we have a contradiction. If, however, we take each passage as they're meant to be taken, then both sides are wrong.

The Calvinists are wrong in saying that Christ's death wasn't for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone has the atonement actualized; and that's what Calvinism is talking about, the actualization of the atonement, not the offer. Obviously the offer is out there, but due to man's total depravity (according to Calvinism) he won't accept it unless chosen.

Likewise, from the other spectrum, they say the atonement is offered to everyone, but then turn around say that if someone rejects it, it doesn't affect that person. Well...that's limited atonement.

So both sides just take it to the extreme before realizing that both John 10 and John 3:16 work together. One talks about the offer while the other talks about the effect.

OK.....I'm not quite following you Kerdos (I call you Kerdos because I can't pronounce your first name

) I follow the argument you make (in bold) but don't understand how that fits with the teaching that Jesus took on all of our sin so that all men would have the opportunity to come to Him.