Did Jesus Die For All Humanity?

[RogerW]

Christ could do no less. As God He loved the soul of every man. For it is not the will of God that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. This is known as the soverign will of God. Yet somehow we must reconcile this with the permissive will of God. We know that not all will come to repentance because they love darkness rather than light.

Historically Calvinism and Armenianism have represented the two sides of the argument. One claiming works and the other grace. The merits of grace over works is obvious yet to make grace irresistable as some would teach from Calvin is to constrain God where He has not gone.

Did all look to the serpent in the camp or did some refuse? Numbers 21:7-9 Some later corrupted the serpent and burned insense to it. 2Kings 18:4 So oft goes the way of man.

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

Greetings Roger & Welcome,

I find a problem in what you have presented here. Are there really only some men who love darkness rather than light, and therefore will not come to the true light for life? (See Ro 3:9-18) If this is true why only some men and not all men? I assume you will say because we must all choose to accept or reject Christ, and those who reject Him are the ones who love darkness rather than the True Light. Why? Why are only some men able to make the right choice (Christ), while others cling to their love of darkness?

Many Blessings,
RW

[notuptome]

Greetings Roger & Welcome,

I find a problem in what you have presented here. Are there really only some men who love darkness rather than light, and therefore will not come to the true light for life? (See Ro 3:9-18) If this is true why only some men and not all men? I assume you will say because we must all choose to accept or reject Christ, and those who reject Him are the ones who love darkness rather than the True Light. Why? Why are only some men able to make the right choice (Christ), while others cling to their love of darkness?

Many Blessings,
RW

John 3:19 They loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. If you have a red letter edition of the bible these words are in red. All men are sinners by choice but some when confronted with the righteousness of Christ and the judgment of God upon all ungodlyness repent. Those who despite knowing the judgment of God do them and have pleasure in them. Romans 1:18-32 esp 32

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

[PilgrimPastor]

Greetings Pilgrim Pastor,

As Scripture tells us and you affirm, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Perhaps your problem is not with the doctrine of John Calvin, but with the fact that only some who hear the Word are given the gift of faith unto eternal life. It seems you want to reconcile why God enables some to receive faith to "hear" and why He leaves others without faith that should come by hearing His Word? Do you have a Biblical answer to this problem?

Many Blessings,
RW

That is really right at the heart if this issue - indeed. Is the faith necessary for the receipt of Christ offer the sovereign gift of God to a given individual who is elect or must the person choose completely for himself to receive Christ? My answer to that question will no doubt cause a Calvinist to call me Semi-Pelagian and if so; so be it.

We must exercise our God-Given Free Will in the receipt of Christ as a child reaches out his hand to receive the any gift from his father. The gift from a father to child is totally of the father, the cost of the gift etc. but this does not negate the child's "part" in the process, albeit a very small if nonexistent part indeed.

I think the real trouble here is the constant assumption on the part of Western Christians that in order to be orthodox we must systematize the Bible even in its most minute of details. Calvin was first a lawyer and this makes sense given the propensity of Western Christians to view the entire of Scripture in legalistic terms. We even often use terms of law with regard to salvation and Christ atonement; properly perhaps in many cases but I think this belies our tendency to want to make faith into mathematical equations and fit nicely into our theological systems.

Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and we have been grafted into the houshold of faith. When Jesus preached and taught along the dusty trails of the Holy Land was He speaking to some elect, some non-elect, and sifting them out? Or was He making a REAL and VALID offer of salvation to all who would recieve it? The reverse of your question is equelly valid.

Are all who hear the gopsel GENUINELY in a position to respond favorable in faith? Or are they not? I would argue that if some are predestined for eternal damnation in a fixed eternal sense, then many are not even able to respond, as Calvin's system would neccesitate, and thus the offer of Christ salvation to the world is not a genuine offer at all.

I fall very closely to an Amyraldian position on soteriology, in fact if I had to affirm a creed, which as a Congregational Pastor I do not, I would affirm something along those lines.

[gophgetter]

Greetings Goph,

I see a bit of a conflict in what you are saying here. You say you don't believe in limited atonement to any degree, but then you divide His sheep from the Jewish religious leaders (hirelings). Seems you too limit atonement to His sheep?

Many Blessings,
RW

If you will reread what I posted you will find that is not what I said by any means.

[BroRog]

The Reformed 5 pointers align themselves with Calvin because Calvin's doctrine aligns itself with the doctrine of the Bible to the point it cannot be denied.

Actually, the Bible teaches unlimited atonement, according to the Biblical concept of atonement.

The problem came about when St. Anselm redefined the concept of atonement in new terms that were foreign to the Bible. It is Anslem's view of the atonement, the one most Christians accept today, that the doctrine of "Limited Atonement" seeks to solve.

Since most Christians have accepted Anselm's view, the current picture of damnation goes something like this. I am a sinner and because I have all this unpaid moral debt, I am subject to being thrown into hell. Without any intervention, I have a death sentence on my head, a dead man walking, and my sentence is to rot in hell for my sins.

The current view of salvation is like this. Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sins. He took all my moral debt to justice on himself, which paid my debt to justice and allows God to grant me eternal life.

The problem this view creates, of course, is that the Bible teaches universal atonement as it says that Christ was the propitiation for the entire world, as John says. Peter says that Christ died for our sins, the just for the unjust.

The doctrine of limited atonement isn't a Biblical doctrine as the Bible teaches an unlimited propitiation for the entire world. The Calvinist Doctrine is an attempt to deny universalism, which is a good thing to deny, but addresses a question that Anselm raised, not the Bible. The Bible doesn't share Anselm's view of the atonement and once we remove Anselm's view, we have no need to create a "fix" to our doctrine of the atonement.

Propitiation isn't expiation.

[RogerW]

John 3:19 They loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. If you have a red letter edition of the bible these words are in red. All men are sinners by choice but some when confronted with the righteousness of Christ and the judgment of God upon all ungodlyness repent. Those who despite knowing the judgment of God do them and have pleasure in them. Romans 1:18-32 esp 32

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

Greetings Roger,

This really does not answer my questions. We don't become sinners when we commit sin, we sin because we are born with fallen natures wholly inclined to sin. It is not that we are as evil as we can be, but that our whole being is in fact born without Spiritual life necessary to know or enter the Kingdom of God. Since the fall every man is born in bondage to Satan, sin and death and without ability to come to Christ for life. Every man born into this world loves the darkness and their sin and will not come to the Light even when confronted with their sinfulness...unless/until Christ intervenes, changing their hearts and making them willing. Truth is that if Christ, through His Word and Spirit does not intervene in the hearts of some men, then no man would be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

[RogerW]

That is really right at the heart if this issue - indeed. Is the faith necessary for the receipt of Christ offer the sovereign gift of God to a given individual who is elect or must the person choose completely for himself to receive Christ? My answer to that question will no doubt cause a Calvinist to call me Semi-Pelagian and if so; so be it.

We must exercise our God-Given Free Will in the receipt of Christ as a child reaches out his hand to receive the any gift from his father. The gift from a father to child is totally of the father, the cost of the gift etc. but this does not negate the child's "part" in the process, albeit a very small if nonexistent part indeed.

Greetings Pilgrim Pastor,

If you are willing, think this through with me for a moment. I will not argue against the fact that all men have faith. The question; is the faith that every man has able to give him eternal life? In our fallen condition the faith we possess is not saving faith. It is a faith that can assent to who Christ is, but man's fallen faith cannot save him. If it could then even the devils could be saved because even they profess, "Thou art the Son of God." Prior to regeneration our fallen faith is like that of the devils, and without eternal life. So is our fallen will truly free since the only faith possible in fallen man will not give them eternal life? According to the Bible before we are born again, we are in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Can we be truly free since we are indeed in bondage?

When you liken God's free gift of salvation to that of an earthly father, you have made God into the image of fallen man. Where does the Bible tell us that Christ offers eternal life to all who believe? Does not the Bible tell us that Christ will GIVE eternal life to all who believe? What you are doing is making the gospel call which is offered to all mankind with the gift of salvation that is GIVEN to all who believe.

We are commanded to go into all the world with the "good news", the gospel of salvation. Why? Because God uses the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Who will believe...who can believe? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But not all who hear the Word receive saving faith. Why? Because Christ calls His sheep, (through the power of His Word and Spirit) by name and they come to Him. All He calls by name will believe, and not one of them will be lost.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Men are saved by grace, not as some assume by our faith. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith that is not our own, but the gift of God's grace.

Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and we have been grafted into the houshold of faith. When Jesus preached and taught along the dusty trails of the Holy Land was He speaking to some elect, some non-elect, and sifting them out? Or was He making a REAL and VALID offer of salvation to all who would recieve it? The reverse of your question is equelly valid.

We do not know who the elect of God are. For this reason the message of salvation, commanding (not a choice) all men everywhere to repent and believe is preached unto all people. Through the power of His Word and Spirit God will GIVE salvation to all who receive the gift of faith enabling them to believe. It is NOT salvation that is offered to every man! No! The message is sent unto every man and God calls His own through the message of good news, and GIVES unto them eternal life. Eternal life is never an offer, it is the free gift GIVEN.

Are all who hear the gopsel GENUINELY in a position to respond favorable in faith? Or are they not? I would argue that if some are predestined for eternal damnation in a fixed eternal sense, then many are not even able to respond, as Calvin's system would neccesitate, and thus the offer of Christ salvation to the world is not a genuine offer at all.

All men are genuinely in a spiritually fallen position whereby none of them will turn to Christ for eternal life. Why would God need to predestine any man to damnation, since every man will go there if God does not GIVE them eternal life? Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord!

Many Blessings,
RW

[RogerW]

Actually, the Bible teaches unlimited atonement, according to the Biblical concept of atonement.

Greetings BroRog,

Either the Bible teaches atonement is limited or we must accept universalism. Of course universalism doesn't make much sense because God did create the lake of fire.

The problem this view creates, of course, is that the Bible teaches universal atonement as it says that Christ was the propitiation for the entire world, as John says. Peter says that Christ died for our sins, the just for the unjust.

The doctrine of limited atonement isn't a Biblical doctrine as the Bible teaches an unlimited propitiation for the entire world. The Calvinist Doctrine is an attempt to deny universalism, which is a good thing to deny, but addresses a question that Anselm raised, not the Bible. The Bible doesn't share Anselm's view of the atonement and once we remove Anselm's view, we have no need to create a "fix" to our doctrine of the atonement.

Propitiation isn't expiation.

Atonement is a favorable exchange or reconciling back to God. Propitiation speaks of the atoning victim; e.g. Christ is the expiator. Atonement is what Christ did for His people, while propitiation simply tells us Christ is the One who satisfied God's wrath against all sin. Just because Christ satisfied God's wrath against all sin, that does not mean that He has also made atonement for every man. Christ went to the cross to atone for or to reconcile, or restore only believers back to God. Those who are never reconciled, or restored back (atoned for) to God will die in their sins. Meaning their sins are not forgiven even though Christ is the expiator (propitiation) for the sins of the whole world. Their sins are not atoned for, so their sins must be done away in the lake of fire. Because Christ has satisfied the wrath of God against all sin, therefore all sin will be done away in Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

[PilgrimPastor]

Many Blessings,
RW

Good post. In short: I did not mean to imply that faith saves, amen to the reality that grace is what saves, sin is what separates, and faith is merely the means by which we access grace.

As to the reality that men are all damned apart the gift of grace, I agree completely. BUT this is where I part from Calvin and can not fully affirm a limited atonement; it is limited in size (those who come are not all who could come) but is not limited is scope (indeed, all could come). While you may agree on the surface with that statement, I am convinced that Calvin's system begs the question with regard to "double predestination."

It strikes me that while Calvin was perhaps not a "hyper-Calvinist" many who follow this system strictly today are. I wonder if some folks have a confused understanding of Calvin's soteriology as they have also mixed it with a predetermistic philosophy with regard to all matters of life; e.g. "its all settled and I am just along for the ride."

We are not that far apart at all on this.

[RogerW]

Good post. In short: I did not mean to imply that faith saves, amen to the reality that grace is what saves, sin is what separates, and faith is merely the means by which we access grace.

As to the reality that men are all damned apart the gift of grace, I agree completely. BUT this is where I part from Calvin and can not fully affirm a limited atonement; it is limited in size (those who come are not all who could come) but is not limited is scope (indeed, all could come). While you may agree on the surface with that statement, I am convinced that Calvin's system begs the question with regard to "double predestination."

It strikes me that while Calvin was perhaps not a "hyper-Calvinist" many who follow this system strictly today are. I wonder if some folks have a confused understanding of Calvin's soteriology as they have also mixed it with a predetermistic philosophy with regard to all matters of life; e.g. "its all settled and I am just along for the ride."

We are not that far apart at all on this.

Hi Pilgrim Pastor,

To tell you the truth I always get a little troubled by those who insist on bringing John Calvin into what is suppose to be discussion of the Bible. I know much of what Calvin teaches and mostly from what I have been told, I certainly view his doctrine as biblical. Having said that, let me also tell you that I have never actually studied the works of John Calvin myself. I made it a point not to because I did not want folks to think that my doctrine comes from the works of any man. Please don't get me wrong, I am NOT opposed to the use commentaries.

So putting aside what Calvin may or may not say regarding double predestination, do you believe my previous reply gave a biblical defense against it? As for limited atonement, you said it is limited in size, not in scope. If all men can come without God changing their hearts, making them willing, then aren't you saying that some men are more righteous or some how better than those who choose not to come?

Many Blessings,
RW

[th1bill]

Very true. There are a lot of reformed folks, 5 pointers from many denominations really, who are compelled to believe that Calvin got it SO right

... There is a basic, very basic, rule of hermeneutics that states that no scripture can be understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it. To hold to the view of Calvin on election is to totally deny many of the scriptures that God has left us concerning Himself and the freewill of man.

Salvation

• ILLUSTRATED BY
  
  • A horn
    Psalms 18:2; Luke 1:69
  • A tower
    2 Samuel 22:51
  • A helmet
    Isaiah 59:17; Ephesians 6:17
  • A shield
    2 Samuel 22:36
  • A lamp
    Isaiah 62:1
  • A cup
    Psalms 116:13
  • Clothing
    2 Chronicles 6:41; Psalms 132:16; 149:4; Isaiah 61:10
  • Wells
    Isaiah 12:3
  • Walls and bulwarks
    Isaiah 26:1; 60:18
  • Chariots
    Habakkuk 3:8
  • A victory
    1 Corinthians 15:57
  • Typified by the bronze serpent
    Numbers 21:4-9; John 3:14,15
  • See ATONEMENT
  
  
• UNCLASSIFIED SCRIPTURES RELATING TO
  Genesis 12:1,3; Exodus 15:2; Deuteronomy 30:19,20; 32:15; 2 Samuel 14:14; 1 Kings 8:41-43; 1 Chronicles 16:35; 2 Chronicles 6:41; Psalms 3:8; 36:8,9; 37:39; 46:4; 63:5,6; 65:4; 68:18-20; 86:13; 90:14; 91:16; 95:1; 98:2,3; 106:8; 107:9; 121:1-8; 132:16; Proverbs 1:20,21; 8:1-5; 9:1-6; Isaiah 1:18; 2:5; 25:6,7; 29:18,19,24; 32:1-4; 35:8; 44:3; 45:17; 46:12,13; 49:10,11; 50:10; 51:4,5; 52:10,15; 55:1-3,6,7; 56:1,6-8; 57:18,19; 61:1-3; 63:9; Jeremiah 3:23; 21:8; Ezekiel 18:32; Joel 2:32; Amos 5:4; Zechariah 14:8; Malachi 4:2; Matthew 1:21; 3:9; 11:28-30; 18:14; 21:31; 22:9,10,14; 23:37; 24:14; 28:19; Mark 2:17; 16:15,16; Luke 2:10,31,32; 3:6; 5:31,32; 7:47; 13:29,30; 14:16-24; 15:2,4-32; 19:10; 24:47; John 1:7; 3:14-17; 4:14,22; 5:40; 6:35,37; 7:37,38; 10:16; 11:51,52; 12:32; 15:4,5; Acts 2:39; 4:12; 5:20; 11:17,18; 13:26,38,39,47; 15:7-9,11; 16:17,30,31; 20:21; 28:28; Romans 1:5,14,16,17; 2:26; 3:21-26,28-30; 4:1-25; 5:1,2,15-21; 7:24,25; 9:30-33; 10:4,8-13; 11:1-36; 15:9,16; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17,20; 6:1,17; 7:10; Galatians 1:4; 2:16; 3:1-28; Ephesians 1:9,10,13; 2:1,3-5,8,9,14,15,17; 3:6,9; 5:14; Philippians 2:12; 3:7-11; Colossians 1:5,6,20-23,26,27; 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10; 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14; 1 Timothy 1:13,15,16; 2:3-6; 4:10; 2 Timothy 1:9,10; 2:10; 3:15; Titus 2:11; 3:3-7; Hebrews 1:14; 2:3,10; 4:1-10; 5:9; 7:25; James 1:21; 1 Peter 1:5,9,10; 2 Peter 3:9,15; 1 John 2:25; 4:9,10; 5:11; Jude 1:3; Revelation 3:17,18,20; 5:9; 7:9,10; 14:6; 21:6; 22:17
  
  • See ADOPTION
  • See REDEMPTION
  • See REGENERATION
  • See SANCTIFICATION
  
  
• CONDITIONS OF
  Matthew 3:2; 18:3; 19:16-21; 24:13; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:8; 14:25-33; 18:18-26; John 3:3-12,14-18; 5:24; 6:28,29,47; 9:35; 11:25,26; 12:36; 20:31; Acts 2:38; 3:19,23
  
  • See BLESSINGS, CONTINGENT UPON OBEDIENCE
  • See FAITH
  • See OBEDIENCE
  • See REPENTANCE
  • See PERSEVERANCE
  
  
• PLAN OF
  Mark 4:11; John 6:37,44,45,65; 17:4; 18:11; 19:28-30; Acts 3:18; 17:3; Romans 1:16,17; 10:3-9; 16:25,26; 1 Corinthians 1:21-25; 2:7-9; 2 Corinthians 5:18,19; Galatians 4:4,5; Ephesians 1:3-23; 2:4-10; 3:1-11; 6:19; Colossians 1:19-23,26,27; 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14; 1 Timothy 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:9,10; Hebrews 2:9,10,14-18; 6:17-20; Revelation 5:2-5; 10:7
  
  • See JESUS, MISSION OF
  • See REDEMPTION
  • See REGENERATION
  • See SANCTIFICATION
  • See SIN, FORGIVENESS OF
  
  

... In the study above you will find the reasons for your point of view as well as the reasons so many of us find you to be in error. Nave's did an excellent job of referencing the scriptures and that is why I have pasted from an online copy of his work. Before you reply, please do the complete study and please remember the first and most basic rule of hermeneutics.

[Rhyfelwr]

While the above give many passages as examples relating to Christs' sacrifice as a ransom, it is also undeniable that Christ does pay a substitutionary atonement for the sins of those who believe. Passages which show a form of ransom are used by Arminians to suggest that Christ did not die as a form of penal substitution, and it is necessary to their doctrine to rule out any substitutionary atonment/propitiation. Of course, the reverse is not true, in that propititation does not rule out a form of ransom, whether it be general (4-point Calvinism) or limited to the elect (5-point Calvinism). Therefore, since the scripture mentions both a ransom and propitiation, only Calvinism allows for them to be reconciled, since propitition does not rule out a ransom for those who will believe, but on the other hand a general ransom rules out any form of propititation.

Also, any thoughts on my earlier post?

[Alaska]

So, in other words, it's up to us to apply salvation to ourselves?

If you got notice of a large inheritance but you must notify the bank of your address etc and sign to receive this money, would you make an issue that it is not a free gift since you had to do something to get it?

'Saved...not of works' is a horrible lie when applied to the idea that nothing a person can do can somehow connect to their salvation.
Would we say that nothing the person can do can effect whether or not he gets the inheritance?
Applying Paul's words in such a way is bizarre.

The strength the person finds to respond to the gospel message is attributed to the grace of God in Christ that results from believing in him.
The change a believer undergoes in behaviour and outlook is not something they can take credit for: it is not of themselves lest they should boast for it is God that works in them to both will and do of his good pleasure: these changes are God's workmanship.
A gospel not encouraging yielding to God's grace and hence living a godly life; a gospel not associating 'saved' with 'changed' is a false gospel and a false grace worthy of the most scathing condemnation.

[BadDog]

So, in other words, it's up to us to apply salvation to ourselves?

No. It is available to us to respond in faith and freely receive the gift of salvation made available by the death of God's Son in our behalf.

By your thinking should we assume that God chooses those who should gain eternal life and that he appeals to all mankind to receive His gift when it has not been offered to all?

B D

[Butch5]

Greetings Roger,

This really does not answer my questions. We don't become sinners when we commit sin, we sin because we are born with fallen natures wholly inclined to sin. It is not that we are as evil as we can be, but that our whole being is in fact born without Spiritual life necessary to know or enter the Kingdom of God. Since the fall every man is born in bondage to Satan, sin and death and without ability to come to Christ for life. Every man born into this world loves the darkness and their sin and will not come to the Light even when confronted with their sinfulness...unless/until Christ intervenes, changing their hearts and making them willing. Truth is that if Christ, through His Word and Spirit does not intervene in the hearts of some men, then no man would be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

We don't become sinners because we sin??? Tell that to Paul,

Romans 6:16 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul says we're the servant of sin if we yield to sin, not that we yield to sin because we are sinners.

Can you provide Scripture to support your claim that no one would come to the light. Especially when Christ has given light to every person born?


John 1:6-9 ( KJV )
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.