Ultimate Reconciliation?

[ZAB]

Hi there,
Out of curiosity, what are everyone's views on the unpopular doctrine of "ultimate reconciliation". I personally have only heard this taught one time, and that was very hush hush! haha. I'm not sure why? I guess we want people to burn in hell! Wow.
For those of you who don't know what this is, it basically teaches that hell is temporary, and that one day (who knows when) all people will willingly bow to the Lord Jesus (Phil 2:10). Hell was simply a drastic means to bring them realization of His Lordship. This teaching views "fire" (as in "hell fire") as primarily a spiritual truth, and not necessarily natural fire. There are a couple other places in Scripture as well that are used to make this claim. Just for the record, I neither adhere to nor deny this doctrine. I haven't really studied it, so please don't burn me at the stake .
So what do you all think?

Z

[RUN2GOD]

Even though I've never heard of this doctrine, I've often thought about the subject of eternal hellfire. As a child, this is what scared me into getting saved(living in the bible belt). When i grew up, i didn't feel like i even deserved to go to church, because of the expectations and fear of not being perfect. So I started really reading my bible, and soon realized that all this time i was trying to avoid going to hell, i was missing out on so much more. God is love.
I know that there is an eternal consequence to the choices i make in my life. It does seem harsh to burn in hell eternally for the things you may have done in your life. For some, does the punishment fit the crime? I believe God is more just than that. I am, however, thankful for the seed being planted all those years ago, even if it was out of fear. It led me to get to know the loving God who is with me always. God bless

[David Taylor]

UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.

What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

[Izdaari]

Here's the wiki on it for background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

It's something I wish were true, but I don't think it is. But it has much more support in early church history than I was aware of, so I'll have to give it some serious study.

[ZAB]

UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.

What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

I hear where you're coming from. From the U.R. perspective, I dont think they look at Heaven as the ultimate goal. I think they assume levels of reward once in heaven. To those who were not saved while on earth, they will have little to no reward. While those who did receive Jesus while on earth will have other rewards. Seeing from a distance those who have overcome and sit with the Lord in His throne would be more punishment I could handle, personally. Is "hell" simply spatial separation? U.R. proponents would say that eternal physical hellfire seems a bit harsh for someone who simply grew up with opposing viewpoints. It's not their fault they were born Muslim, etc.

However, on the other hand, I've heard it said that while yes God is love personfied, He is also justice personified. Judgment is inevitable. Will it be forever and ever amen? I'm not sure. I need to study it out. I've heard some say that the Greek words for "forever" and "eternal" do not all mean the same thing. Some mean "age lasting" or something equivolent. I'll have to do a word study. Pretty interesting though .

[markedward]

UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord

Honestly, it looks like you're building and arguing against a strawman. You're saying UR denies the need for Christ's sacrifice, and that people will be saved whether they believe in him or not. That isn't what it is teaching... at least according to the OP's description:

"one day (who knows when) all people will willingly bow to the Lord Jesus"

In the words of the OP, UR teaches that Christ's atonement was necessary, and simply that eventually all people will receive and accept it. One might say they were "forced" into it because of hell, but in the manner in which hell is viewed from the UR perspective, it's not any different than someone simply going through a rough time in this life before turning to Christ.

That said, I still disagree with it, because it's simply not found in Scripture. The statement that "all people" will bow before God doesn't mean "all people" are going to be saved, whether right away or eventually. Hence, people are handed over to "shame and eternal contempt" and "eternal punishment" and "eternal destruction".

[brdhggns]

Ultimate Reconciliation if true would eliminate one of the two needs of the millennial reign. which that docterine is a questionable docterine to some. to me in all my studys the millennial reign.. well i have no doubts that its true, but the two needs of it are

1) fullfill all the promises to the children of Isreal
2) get rid of human rebellion in the human race

the ultimate reconciliation would defeat the need of point two..

i know alot of people outside of the faith see hell as evil on the behalf of God but its not God who sends people to hell.. its themselves.. is a judge evil for upholding the law? no, when a judge upholds the law the judge is just.

and now hell is the punishment for the rebellion of man. if mans punishment was lifted it would only bring the rebellion back

sorry if i went off on a tanget. feel like i did but I also feel like all of what i said applied to my point, and if you dont agree with the millennial im sorry lol.. i do haha

love in christ

[joztok]

'Ultimate Reconciliation'... Isn't that universalism or a form of it?

[apothanein kerdos]

UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.

What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

To back up what was said here, this isn't a strawman. It might appear as such, but it's actually a good argument.

The purpose of the atonement is for us to enter into a relationship with Christ (that is the end); Heaven is a by-product of this relationship. Therefore, if UR eventually gets us to Heaven, despite the fact that we've neglected a relationship with Him this side of eternity, then the atonement is ultimately universal and the death doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things.

Regardless, from a purely logical standpoint it doesn't make any sense. People go to Hell because they reject the sacrifice of Christ - yet they're still covered by it? If this is the case, why do they need to be punished? The punishment was already taken on the cross.

We go to Hell because in denying Christ's act on the cross, we must pay for our sins ourselves. Since we are finite beings and God is infinite, any sin committed against Him is infinitely evil, thus requiring an infinite (eternal) punishment. Only an eternal being can cancel out infinite evil. Since those in Hell have denied the eternal One who did just that, they must face their own sins for eternity.

[David Taylor]

U.R. proponents would say that eternal physical hellfire seems a bit harsh for someone who simply grew up with opposing viewpoints. It's not their fault they were born Muslim, etc.

They simply show their infamiliarity with the Scriptures.

It isn't anyone's fault who they are born (Muslim).
It is completely their responsibility, however, that they chose to follow after false gods and idolatry instead of trusting, believing, and following after the One True God who at some point in their existence, manifested Himself to them, and they chose to reject Him in favor of their false gods or beliefs.

There is no such things as an 'excuse'; therefore God is a big unfair meanie.

God won't allow unrepentent sinners who reject His Word, His Scripture, His revelation to them, His son, etc...into His Heaven.

That's why UR is such a dangerous and heretical doctrine. It makes God to be something He far from is (incapable, unfair, etc...) and builds a false rosey picture of the truly damned still getting into Heaven in their unrepentent state nonetheless.

Calvary is meaningless to a Universalist.

[theBelovedDisciple]

They simply show their infamiliarity with the Scriptures.

It isn't anyone's fault who they are born (Muslim).
It is completely their responsibility, however, that they chose to follow after false gods and idolatry instead of trusting, believing, and following after the One True God who at some point in their existence, manifested Himself to them, and they chose to reject Him in favor of their false gods or beliefs.

There is no such things as an 'excuse'; therefore God is a big unfair meanie.

God won't allow unrepentent sinners who reject His Word, His Scripture, His revelation to them, His son, etc...into His Heaven.

That's why UR is such a dangerous and heretical doctrine. It makes God to be something He far from is (incapable, unfair, etc...) and builds a false rosey picture of the truly damned still getting into Heaven in their unrepentent state nonetheless.

Calvary is meaningless to a Universalist.

excellent post! thanks!

[tt1106]

It makes alot of sense if we can reduce God to a human with human emotions and rationalizations.
The problem as I see it is the nature of God. In what way does it glorify God for him to receive everyone including unbelievers?
So much of the Bible would be simply invalidated. We would not need reconciliation with God. Christ would not have needed to die. In fact,
Adam and Eve could have stayed in the Garden. The Earth would not have needed to be cursed.Since God alludes to a savior coming in Genesis, this would be totally unnecessary if God was going to shower everybody with love and forgiveness regardless of their sins and regardless of whether there was a blood propitiation.

[Jerome1]

Wouldn't UR mean that everyone's will would be united with God's? I just don't think it is realistic to believe that there would be a time where person(s) would not rebel against God.

There are people and principalities who will never desire to serve or be obedient to God, therefore the only place for them is Hell.

[Athanasius]

I think what people forget is that these people don't want to be with God, seeing Him won't change their minds.

[Partaker of Christ]

I think what people forget is that these people don't want to be with God, seeing Him won't change their minds.

You know this, how?

Who are 'these people'?