Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mid-Trib Rapture Scripture

[LaurieF]

Can someone direct me to where in the scriptures are the basis for each of these views.

I'm not trying to get out of studying (I'm trying to go deeper),but I just can't see them. I have been getting more serious by reading Rev, Daniel, and Matt and praying for understanding. I would like to be able to get into a deeper comparison on the different beliefs for myself so I hope this thread doesn't turn into a debate. I just seek direction from different views and hope everyone respects each others opinions.

Laurie

[Searcher1]

I can direct you to the post trib scriptures.

True post-trib is the belief that the wrath that the bride will not go through is the Day of the Lord's wrath, known as Armageddon. This means the church will be on the earth through the tribulations of the last days and even the bowls of God's wrath being poured out on the beast. But Armageddon is the valley of decision. The final trial. Of that we believers have no part in, other than to be behind the Lord as part of His armies.

So I found there is one event that always comes before the resurrection rapture and that is the fall of Babylon.

Find that and you will see it followed by the rapture.

I'll just give two witnesses to this order. One is found in Rev 14.

First the angel announces that Babylon has fallen in verse 8 and in verse 14 Johns see the reaping of the harvest of the earth which is now ripe. This is the reaping of the believers from the whole earth, the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of the living believers. These are called the Bride of Christ in other scripture.

This is followed by an angel being being told to harvest the grapes, nonbelievers, and throw them into the wine press of God's wrath and the blood flows to the horses bridle. This is the day of the battle of Armageddon.

The second place we find that same order is in Chap 19. In verse 2 we see that Jesus has avenged the blood of the saints on the great Harlot and the smoke of her will go up forever. This is the fall of Babylon the Great Harlot.

Next John see in verse 7 the Bride of Christ being prepared for the wedding. "For the wedding of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready" and she is given her wedding clothes.

This is followed by the battle of Armageddon. Jesus rides out of heaven and His army with Him. The birds of the earth are called to the Great supper of God. The armies of the earth are gathered together to make war with against Jesus.


So, there is the order of events told in two places. The question now would be when does Babylon fall?

We have to look at the final things to find that timing. The bowls of God's wrath. In the 6th bowl of God's wrath demons like frogs go out to gather the armies to Armageddon. Jesus also warns that He is coming as a thief and be prepared. We all have heard through the scriptures that Jesus will come like a thief in the night, well this is it. In the 7th trump the harlot city falls.

Now, the scripture in chap's 14 and 19 has already shown us that the rapture happens after the fall of Babylon the harlot city, so this is the moment of the rapture. Meaning Jesus comes in the clouds in great Glory (on His horse). He sends out his angels to gather the harvest of believers, the elect of God to Him in the air. Next He is seen with all the saints with Him and His foot touches down on the Mount of Olives, where He comes to fight for the inhabitance of Jerusalem, Zec 12-14. He destroys all the armies that have been gathered to fight on that day.

So that is why I am post tribe.

God bless
Norma

[LaurieF]

Thanks, as someone without an opposing view, Rev 19:7 is a clincher that should have jumped out at me. Is the book of Rev in chronological order or does John kind of drift around? Is the fall of Babylon after the seals, vials and all that?

Thanks again. It is really hard to find someone knowledgeable enough to direct me on end times. The traditional church sure stays away from it and most my friends don't delve into the Bible this deep.

Hopefully I get another view and remember I'm just looking for scriptual reference that I can seek on my own. Not a debate on Norma's view.

[markedward]

Matthew 13: Christ tells a parable about the wheat and the weeds, in which a field of wheat has many weeds in it. The owner of the field says "leave both in until the time of the harvest, then throw the weeds in the fire." Christ explains that the harvest is the end of the age, and that the wheat are the righteous while the weeds are the wicked. This explicitly shows both the wicked and righteous being left in the world until the end. Nothing in the text indicates a removal of the righteous beforehand.

Matthew 24: Christ's prophecies describe the signs and trials of the end of the age. Nowhere in the text is a removal of the righteous described as taking placing before or during this time period. Christ then describes the Coming of the Son of Man, and only then does he describe the gathering of the righteous... at the end of events.

Special Notice: The one text that the "rapture" doctrine was originally based off of was the "catching up" of the saints in one of Paul's epistles. This was turned into a "pre-tribulation secret rapture" by certain Dispensationalists. The thing they don't tell you is this: the description of the event is almost exactly the same description as the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24, which takes place at the end of events. Likewise, the description of the "rapture" is exactly the same thing as the "resurrection".

The "rapture" is the resurrection. They're not two different things.

[Searcher1]

You're welcome. I like to share those things I have managed to see in the text. Took a long time to see them though.

Is the book of Rev in chronological order or does John kind of drift around? Is the fall of Babylon after the seals, vials and all that?

Oh my, that would fill a whole thread. and I don't want to distract from what you have going here.

But I can say that the fall of Babylon is in the last vial. So is one of the last things to happen. Everything, including the vials, is complete at the blowing of the last trump, if that helps.

God bless
Norma

[rom826]

Matthew 13: Christ tells a parable about the wheat and the weeds, in which a field of wheat has many weeds in it. The owner of the field says "leave both in until the time of the harvest, then throw the weeds in the fire." Christ explains that the harvest is the end of the age, and that the wheat are the righteous while the weeds are the wicked. This explicitly shows both the wicked and righteous being left in the world until the end. Nothing in the text indicates a removal of the righteous beforehand.

Matthew 24: Christ's prophecies describe the signs and trials of the end of the age. Nowhere in the text is a removal of the righteous described as taking placing before or during this time period. Christ then describes the Coming of the Son of Man, and only then does he describe the gathering of the righteous... at the end of events.

Special Notice: The one text that the "rapture" doctrine was originally based off of was the "catching up" of the saints in one of Paul's epistles. This was turned into a "pre-tribulation secret rapture" by certain Dispensationalists. The thing they don't tell you is this: the description of the event is almost exactly the same description as the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24, which takes place at the end of events. Likewise, the description of the "rapture" is exactly the same thing as the "resurrection".

The "rapture" is the resurrection. They're not two different things.

The term "secret" rapture is a term only used by non pre-tribbers to describe pre-trib. I have never heard as of yet a pre-tribber describe their position as a "secret" rapture. Pre-tribbers believe in a "secret" rapture about the same as a-millers believe in "replacement" theology.

The "rapture" is the resurrection. They're not two different things.

No matter what viewpoint one holds as to the timing of when it happens, I would have to say that the "rapture" is significantly different than the resurrection since the resurrection is for dead people and the "rapture" is for living people.

[markedward]

I know it's not "secret" exactly... since I formerly believed in it. I use the term "secret" to refer to how it is believed to take place without any signs to herald it, and that it allegedly happens within a split-second and the "raptured" people are suddenly disappeared.

You misinterpret what I mean by "secret".

[LaurieF]

Rom826, instead of disputing here, could you just give your understanding and belief with scripture like Searcher1 did if you are pre-trib. I'm am seriously just wanting to know all the standings not the arguments so I can search and make my own conclusions.

Thanks, I'm really interested in the pre-trib theory if you will share it.

Laurie

[rom826]

Rom826, instead of disputing here, could you just give your understanding and belief with scripture like Searcher1 did if you are pre-trib. I'm am seriously just wanting to know all the standings not the arguments so I can search and make my own conclusions.

Thanks, I'm really interested in the pre-trib theory if you will share it.

Laurie

I was not trying to dispute. Just pointing out some things. I am still undecided at to where I stand as far as when the rapture occurs in relation to the tribulation. I Thess 4:17 tells us about the "rapture", or the "catching up" of the church.

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (translated from harpazo)together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the only place in scripture that the "harpazo" of the church is specifically mentioned and the timing of it is not given in relation to the tribulation in the section itself. Therefore, all viewpoints need to rely on other scriptures to support their viewpoint. As far as the timing of the rapture, I personally to not believe it is as cut and dry as any camp makes it out to be.

As of right now, I lean toward the rapture occuring Rev 14:15-16

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I believe that this happens after the beast(anti-Christ) is revelaed and before the vials of wrath in Rev 16. By the way, do you have any specific questions on pre-trib or any of the viewpoints you mentioned?

[MarleVVLL]

Matt 24 inductively proves that the catching up of the saints is after the tribulation. However, here are other Scriptures:

1 thess 4 proves that the rapture and the ressurection is at the same time. Note: at the sound of a trumpet.

1st Cor 15:52 says that at the LAST trumpet, we will be changed at the twinkling of an eye and the ressurection occurs.

When is the last trumpet?

Rev 11.

There ya go.

[Bible2]

LaurieF posted in message #1 of this thread:

Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mid-Trib Rapture Scripture

Can someone direct me to where in the scriptures are the basis for
each of these views.

Greetings.

First we have to define what the rapture is. The English word
"rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which
was how the old Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible rendered
"caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the rapture is the church
being "caught up". 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows that this will
occur right after the entire church is resurrected at the second
coming of Jesus Christ.

Now we can begin to look for other scriptures which indicate the
timing of the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 event with relation to the
tribulation. First, note that the church will be "caught up together"
(1 Thessalonians 4:17) at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15).
The church being "caught up together" at the second coming is the
same as the church being "gathered together" at the second coming
(2 Thessalonians 2:1). And the church won't be "gathered together"
(Matthew 24:31) at the second coming (Matthew 24:30) until
"Immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29). So the rapture
is post-trib. This is confirmed by 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, which says
that Jesus cannot come and gather together the church until
sometime after there is an apostasy (falling away) in the church
(Matthew 24:9-13) and the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). The church will go
through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4). Everyone who has faith in Jesus is part of the church
(Ephesians 4:4-5). When Jesus comes to gather together and marry
the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,
Revelation 19:7,20).

The rapture will only take the church as high as the clouds to meet
Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After the church is in the clouds with
Jesus, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and
then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the
church mounts white horses and descends back down from the sky
(the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he brings God's
post-tribulation wrath upon the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

[Bible2]

LaurieF posted in message #3 of this thread:

Is the book of Rev in chronological order or does John kind of drift
around?

Revelation could be in chronological order insofar as the tribulation
could begin with seals two through six (Revelation 6:3-14). Out of
the seventh seal could come the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2).
Then the first six trumpets could happen (Revelation 8:7-9:21).
Then the 3.5-year world-reign of the Antichrist could happen; the
3.5 years could be shown from four different angles in Revelation
chapters 11-14. Then the seventh trumpet could announce the end
of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh
trumpet's temple-opening could come the seven plagues of the
seven vials of wrath (Revelation 11:19, 15:5-16:1). Then the
second coming could happen (Revelation 19:7-21).

[Bible2]

markedward posted in message #4 of this thread:

Nothing in the text indicates a removal of the righteous beforehand.

Greetings.

Amen. The righteous won't be removed from the earth (Proverbs
10:30, John 17:15,20).

[David2]

Can someone direct me to where in the scriptures are the basis for each of these views.

Fine, look at the scriptures, but please remember, there are different ways to approach the Bible. Reading the Bible as though we are still under the Israel covenants, will make it impossible for you to see or understand the rapture. No covenant theologian believes in the pre-trib rapture.
The rapture is believed by people who approach the Bible dispensationaly, in other words, they see the Church, the body of Christ, as a new creation (Ef. 2:15) and not a linear development of the Israel covenants.

Matthew 13: Christ tells a parable about the wheat and the weeds, in which a field of wheat has many weeds in it. The owner of the field says "leave both in until the time of the harvest, then throw the weeds in the fire." Christ explains that the harvest is the end of the age, and that the wheat are the righteous while the weeds are the wicked. This explicitly shows both the wicked and righteous being left in the world until the end. Nothing in the text indicates a removal of the righteous beforehand.

This quote is a case in point. The rapture is not taught in Matthew simply because God,s new creation, the body of Christ, consisting of peoples of all nations without distinction, was not in existence at that time. Only Israel eschatology is taught in Matthew. But, as I said, people from the covenant/ reformed tradition will not believe this.

[Truthinlove]

Can someone direct me to where in the scriptures are the basis for each of these views.

I'm not trying to get out of studying (I'm trying to go deeper),but I just can't see them. I have been getting more serious by reading Rev, Daniel, and Matt and praying for understanding. I would like to be able to get into a deeper comparison on the different beliefs for myself so I hope this thread doesn't turn into a debate. I just seek direction from different views and hope everyone respects each others opinions.

Laurie

Hi Laurie,

I'll give you support for my view, pre-wrath, which is not synonymous with mid-trib...they are different but sometimes lumped together as the same.

Instead of simply giving you scriptures, I will post my blog on it in which I give they KEY verses that support pre-wrath and why they do.

God bless you in your searching and studying

________________________________________________

The Rapture of the Church


by "Truthinlove"
5/25/07


I believe Scripture clearly defines when the rapture will happen in relation to other end-time events. My desire is that instead of taking my word for it, this article would encourage you to compare the Scriptures to each other and pray and see if you come to the same conclusion.

The Bible tells us that we won't know the day or hour of the rapture (Matt. 24:36), but just a couple of verses earlier (vs. 32 &33), He teaches us that we can know the season.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives us a name in regards to the timing of the rapture, it is the Day of the Lord. Clearly the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the ....temple.. of ..God...., claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.

I see these two texts as essential to knowing the timing of the rapture.

The Day of the Lord not a 24 hour day, it is a time period of unknown duration when God will pour out His judgment on the wicked during the 70th week. The Day of the Lord contains the wrath of God. Believers will not endure the wrath of God. (1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9, Romans 5:9)

In Revelation, the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. 8, after the signs in the sun, moon & stars and after the rapture of the saints which is shown as the great multitude in heaven having come out of the great tribulation. The rapture occurs at the 6th seal in Revelation. After the cosmic signs, but before the Day of the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 we are told "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" in relation to the signs in the sun, moon and stars, because the rapture will take place after those signs and then God's wrath will begin.

2 Thess. 1:6-8 says "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are given relief (raptured) from affliction (persecution by antichrist, aka - great tribulation) when Jesus comes, and then He will punish the wicked.

The days of the 2nd Coming are compared to the days of Noah and ..Lot.. (Matt. 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).
The righteous were rescued and the wicked destroyed on the same day. It will be "just the same" when Jesus returns. Also, the wicked mocked Noah for preparing and building the ark, but they were destroyed in the flood. It will be the same in the last days (2 Peter 3:3-4).

From the comparison of these Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that the rapture will happen at the 6th seal of Rev. sometime during the 2nd half of the 7 years, after the great tribulation by the antichrist. Then the wrath of God will be poured out in the Day of the Lord via the trumpet and bowl judgments.