John 6 and (N)OSAS

[Colight]

Hmmm, how does this one fit in...

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This verse indicates that it affects far more than just the reward.

The law of God for us is to Believe on Christ.
Do it and you will be saved... FOREVER!

[Boo]

The law of God for us is to Believe on Christ.
Do it and you will be saved... FOREVER!

Now, I am confused as to where you stand. I thought I knew from your previous response, but I have jumped off your logic trail.

Yes, God bought us with a price. However, He did not take away our free will.

I bought a dog, but I did not take away his free will. He ran off. So can we. I did not forsake the dog. I fed him, I housed him, I blessed him with gifts and affection. The dog preferred rabbits, squirrels, and the woods down the road. He is gone.

While that seems like an oversimplification, that is how the bible shows our relationship to be. If we run off the reservation, we are gone.

Even you said "IF." So which is it? Are we bought and kept or is there an "IF?"

God said there is an "IF."

[Raybob]

...Yes, God bought us with a price. However, He did not take away our free will...

If "our free will" would rather please self, rather than pleasing Him, then we never really were a sheep to begin with, were we.

The simplest verse to solve the OSAS debate is John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

When temptation comes along, do we succumb or do we call on Him? If we succumb, then we are NOSAS.

[Boo]

If "our free will" would rather please self, rather than pleasing Him, then we never really were a sheep to begin with, were we.

The simplest verse to solve the OSAS debate is John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

When temptation comes along, do we succumb or do we call on Him? If we succumb, then we are NOSAS.

That would seem to be valid, however, there is a catch to it. Other scriptures indicate that "Christians" fall away.

Christians can fall into sin - scriptures say so. Christians can leave their first love - scripture says so. Christains can accept false-prophets - same thing. You can follow someone and subsequently stray from the path - and apparently scripture says so.

Why else would be instructed to pursue our salvation with fear and trembling? It is because we are to carefully guard our actions to stay on the path. We would not have to if it were not possible to stray from it.

We first have to accept our fallibility and then keep our minds on God and our feet on the path. The danger lies in our believing that we cannot stray. The result of straying and not returning has already been explained by Jesus.

[Raybob]

...Christians can fall into sin - scriptures say so.

Scriptures like this one?
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28)

Christians can leave their first love - scripture says so. ...

That verse isn't speaking of "Christians" but of people that say they are Christians. Just like the following passage does.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Rev 3:16)

-and-

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23)

[Boo]

Scriptures like this one?
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28)

This verse says nothing about your not being able to foresake Jesus yourself. It talks only about someone else snatching you from God's hand.

That verse isn't speaking of "Christians" but of people that say they are Christians. Just like the following passage does.

You don't know that from the scriptures. When Jesus spoke of the churches in the seven cities, he was speaking of those who were his followers. The idea that they were fakes comes from you; not from scriptures.


So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Rev 3:16)

-and-

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23)

Consider this - I already asked another person to look up Charles Templeton (google him; lots of information to work with) and tell me that he was a fake Christian before he became an aethiest. If he could have been a fake, then there is no way that any of us can know that we are truly Christians. We cannot be sure of our salvation if that is the case.

It is only by knowing that we must take care to follow Jesus, stay on the path, keep God in mind daily that we can know our destiny in the end. We must endure to the end - or end up like Charles Templeton.

Unfortunately, many will become lukewarm. Many will accept false prophets. Many will cease to do good works - fail to bear good fruit. We've been warned.

Please don't think that you can't lose what you now have. You certainly can surrender it in your own free will.

[Raybob]

Consider this - I already asked another person to look up Charles Templeton (google him; lots of information to work with) and tell me that he was a fake Christian before he became an aethiest. If he could have been a fake, then there is no way that any of us can know that we are truly Christians. We cannot be sure of our salvation if that is the case...

We can only know for sure in our heart. If we don't know it for sure, by faith alone, then we are NOSAS.

[David Taylor]

This forum has seen many threads concerning OSAS vs. NOSAS come and go. As a rule, I do not get involved in those discussions too much. As I was reading the Bible with my wife this morning, however, I came across some interesting verses. Take a look at what Jesus says here in John 6 (NASB):

Verse 37: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Verse 39: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Verse 65: "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I find these verses very interesting, since they seem to support the OSAS position. Verse 47 that everybody who the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him, verse 39 continues to say that Jesus will lose none of those that are given to Him, and verse 65 says that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father grants it to begin with! Sounds pretty straight forward: The Father picks who comes to Jesus and who doesn't, and Jesus doesn't lose any of those who come to Him.

Now, I hope we can avoid a regular OSAS vs. NOSAS bashing contest. Instead, I hope we can discuss the above verses and how they relate to the OSAS/NOSAS positions.

How do you think these verses relate to the OSAS/NOSAS debate?

IMO the OSAS/nOSAS discussion cannot be properly grounded with proper understanding and consideration for verses like this.

II Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

and

Ephesians 4:18 (unbelievers) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

and

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

and

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

These verses tell me OSAS; but they also prevent 'easy-believism' or 'get-outta-hell-freecard' mentalities that often are used to discredit OSAS.

I do not believe that true believers of Christ who He has changed to be a new creature, a new man, all things become new, walking in newness of life, etc....will ever fall away, or be snatched out of His hands....not by someone else, and not by their own choice either; because Christ has done the work to transform and metamorphisize them as the potter forming the good work of clay, from the inside out.

I complete discount the stories of old Joe, who was a great godly Christian man, who had an epipheny later in life, and decided to renounce Christ and convert to Satanism, or Islam, or any of the other stories that are often used to denote a nOSAS situation....I say based on the verses above, old Joe was never Christ's to begin with and was only playing at being a Christian for a while; a facade, a outward reflection of an inward lie.

Those who belong to Christ will never turn from Him.

So consider those verses above, when you consider John 6:37-39, 65....I think they tell us quite a bit, related to what Jesus does to us, when He makes us New in Him.

[Vhayes]

If I may build on what David Taylor has just posted, I think these verses support exactly what David has said:

Matthew 7
22 - Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 - And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Please note the word "never".

[David Taylor]

Now, I am confused as to where you stand. I thought I knew from your previous response, but I have jumped off your logic trail.

Yes, God bought us with a price. However, He did not take away our free will.

I bought a dog, but I did not take away his free will. He ran off. So can we. I did not forsake the dog. I fed him, I housed him, I blessed him with gifts and affection. The dog preferred rabbits, squirrels, and the woods down the road. He is gone.

While that seems like an oversimplification, that is how the bible shows our relationship to be. If we run off the reservation, we are gone.

I think your analogy is missing one important aspect of the salvation Christ provides to His.

He changes us from the old man, trenched in sin, to a new creature, and a new man, made clean in His righteous good works. He makes within us a new nature grounded in Him.

Since He does that work in us, I do not believe it is possible for us, like your dog analogy, to execute a free-will decision to run away and be gone...because it is against the very nature that God Himself transformed with us, to ever want to chose to leave Him.

I simply don't by the assumption that truly born-again believers choose to execute their own free will and leave God; I don't believe their free-will would ever want to leave God.

[David Taylor]

That would seem to be valid, however, there is a catch to it. Other scriptures indicate that "Christians" fall away.

Christians can fall into sin - scriptures say so. Christians can leave their first love - scripture says so. Christains can accept false-prophets - same thing. You can follow someone and subsequently stray from the path - and apparently scripture says so.

Why else would be instructed to pursue our salvation with fear and trembling? It is because we are to carefully guard our actions to stay on the path. We would not have to if it were not possible to stray from it.

We first have to accept our fallibility and then keep our minds on God and our feet on the path. The danger lies in our believing that we cannot stray. The result of straying and not returning has already been explained by Jesus.

I don't believe this above. Fake Christians can fall away; because Christ never changed them, never transformed them, never made them a new Creation in Him.

We all sin, but those who Christ has changed will never leave or abandon Him.

Stumble sure, reject Christ, never....not those who He has transformed from the darkness into the light.

[David Taylor]

Consider this - I already asked another person to look up Charles Templeton (google him; lots of information to work with) and tell me that he was a fake Christian before he became an aethiest.

That statement answers the question for you. Anyone who 'becomes an athiest' does not belong to Christ. Their nature was not transformed by Him into something new. They for whatever reason, were acting and playing at being Christian, and eventually gave into their selfish desires; and stopping faking it.

If he could have been a fake, then there is no way that any of us can know that we are truly Christians. We cannot be sure of our salvation if that is the case.

Good point. It can become very difficult for us to attempt to whip out a geiger-detector, and have it tell us if folks are true Christians or not. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing out there, I have been told.

However, for those who are His, they will remain His because He changed them; and transformed their nature to be His. Jesus told us that we can tell by their fruit, and perhaps a more intimate knowledge and daily-interaction with Charles Templeton would have shown this to those who knew him well; maybe not. But regardless of the skill or ability to deceive, noone who is Christ's will 'become an athiest'.

It is only by knowing that we must take care to follow Jesus, stay on the path, keep God in mind daily that we can know our destiny in the end. We must endure to the end - or end up like Charles Templeton.

A true follower of Christ who has been changed has no need to worry that they will be a false-Christian who might ultimately turn into an athiest. True Christians have the promise that we can be confident in Him through all circumstances, and that we will never be plucked out of His hands.

Unfortunately, many will become lukewarm. Many will accept false prophets. Many will cease to do good works - fail to bear good fruit. We've been warned.

Please don't think that you can't lose what you now have. You certainly can surrender it in your own free will.

Yes many humans will become lukewarm. Many will accept false prophets. Many humans who have been taught of God but never changed by God will fall away. But those humans who are planted in Christ, transformed by Him to a new creature, planted in the vine, in the fertile soil, will sprout up and multiply, and produce abundance. They will never fall away.

[John 8:32]

The law of God for us is to Believe on Christ.
Do it and you will be saved... FOREVER!

Can you show me that in scripture? The only connection I find with Christ and the law centers around things like this...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[John 8:32]

in fact...

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom_7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom_10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

And of course...

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

End =

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Don't see these quoted too often.

[Gadgeteer]

Paul also stated his sin nature was quite active.

Therefore I find the doctrine you promote to be out of phase with scripture.

Romans 7
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

''''''
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

this is Paul writing, who is abiding in Christ.
There is a constant conflict with the flesh and the doctrine of the mind.

You are missing the intent of what Paul wrote. Start with Romans chapter 6 --- an eloquent description of "born-again". Then read chapter 7, the war between the NEW nature and the old dead-but-not-always-gone nature. The solution to that war is in chapter 8:

...us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." 8:4

Clearly (Rm8:12-14) we are given a choice, to walk after the flesh (if we do we must die); or by the Spirit putting to death the flesh and we live. So no, we DO NOT have an active sin nature, we who are saved and abide in Jesus (in whom there is no sin! 1Jn3:5!) and who do not walk in flesh/sin-nature.

Even though we renew our mind, the sin of the flesh is still there, presenting it self in every manner of lust and enticing that it can muster,

True; but only when we SUCCUMB to lust-of-the-flesh do we die (James1:14-16!).

What do you think 1Cor10:12-13 means? Paul says (13) that temptation is always before us, but God graciously gives us an escape that we may be able to stand against sin. Verse 12:

"Therefore let he who thinks he STAND take heed, lest he FALL."

What do you think Paul meant by "fall"?

Gadgeteer View Post
"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ..."

Adam and Eve before the fall never had a sin nature..

You dismiss the reality that we have the SAME risk of deception as EVE did.

What is that "same-risk-of-deception", Colight? If one is "deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ", is he still saved?

(Hint --- NO.)

Their choice created a result that could never return to its previous state,

Actually, Jesus restored what was lost; he who abides in Jesus has the same fellowship in spirit, that Adam and Eve had in person.

He (she) who abides in that spiritual fellowship, will one day have the IN-PERSON fellowship also, that Adam and Eve had.

Then you will meet Eve, and know what he was thinking.
Perfect woman, holding fruit will be the down fall of every man,

If I were to believe that, then I would believe that no man has a defense against things like pornography. We do; the defense is to draw near to God, and He draws near to us, that we triumph over temptation.

Even if the do not repent,, the sin is still covered,,
Christ died for ALL sin, even unrepentant ones.

Oh come on!

"Unless you repent, you WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3

If UNREPENTANT sin is still covered, then how will Jesus know the SHEEP, from the GOATS? If it looks like a goat, if it SMELLS like a goat, it's a GOAT! (Unrepentant sinner.)

Cannot lose what is not ours to possess...
Psalms 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD;...

So you scratch out verses like 1Jn5:12? "He who has the Son HAS ETERNAL LIFE".

You read that (or maybe you don't), and think "We cannot have eternal life"?

We are slaves to Christ, he bought us,.
We can either be productive slaves or unproductive..

Wrong; "Every branch that does NOT bear fruit is taken away ...cut off and cast into the fire!" Jn15:2-6

But at the end of the day we are his property, FOREVER,.

Not if we reject Him!

1 Cor 6
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Hah hah hah! So those horrible reprobates of 2Pet2:14-18, who are animals fit only to be killed, but who (in verse 1) were "bought by the Master" --- they're still SAVED???

Gosh, that will tickle a lot of ears that want to walk in sin, Colight.

Prodigal Son was a son to his Father by birth,
A position he could never change for the fathers genetics are part of his very essence.

Hmmm; in verse 13 (and only Luke15:13), he was carousing and getting drunk and lying with harlots --- but he was a still-SAVED-drunk/fornicating/carouser!!!

Do you really believe that, Colight?

So even while he was out fornicating, he was his fathers son, just as much as when he was feeding the pigs, or returning home.

Wow; so exactly what IS belief, that allows a person to be SAVED but does not require CHANGE from sin and debauchery?

Somehow we get exemptions from 1Cor6:9-11, from Eph5:5-6, and from Gal5:19-21? Each of those plainly say "Those who DO these things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM".

And you find waivers that say "Oh don't worry, they'll still inherit"???

Don't you see a problem with this? Hint --- 1Jn3:5-10, "Do not be deceived; by this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed --- he who practices sin IS NOT OF GOD".

How wide is your marker when you're marking out passages like what I just cited? No offense meant.