Yes, God bought us with a price. However, He did not take away our free will.
I bought a dog, but I did not take away his free will. He ran off. So can we. I did not forsake the dog. I fed him, I housed him, I blessed him with gifts and affection. The dog preferred rabbits, squirrels, and the woods down the road. He is gone.
While that seems like an oversimplification, that is how the bible shows our relationship to be. If we run off the reservation, we are gone.
Even you said "IF." So which is it? Are we bought and kept or is there an "IF?"
God said there is an "IF."
The simplest verse to solve the OSAS debate is John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
When temptation comes along, do we succumb or do we call on Him? If we succumb, then we are NOSAS.
Christians can fall into sin - scriptures say so. Christians can leave their first love - scripture says so. Christains can accept false-prophets - same thing. You can follow someone and subsequently stray from the path - and apparently scripture says so.
Why else would be instructed to pursue our salvation with fear and trembling? It is because we are to carefully guard our actions to stay on the path. We would not have to if it were not possible to stray from it.
We first have to accept our fallibility and then keep our minds on God and our feet on the path. The danger lies in our believing that we cannot stray. The result of straying and not returning has already been explained by Jesus.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
That verse isn't speaking of "Christians" but of people that say they are Christians. Just like the following passage does.Christians can leave their first love - scripture says so. ...
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is only by knowing that we must take care to follow Jesus, stay on the path, keep God in mind daily that we can know our destiny in the end. We must endure to the end - or end up like Charles Templeton.
Unfortunately, many will become lukewarm. Many will accept false prophets. Many will cease to do good works - fail to bear good fruit. We've been warned.
Please don't think that you can't lose what you now have. You certainly can surrender it in your own free will.
II Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ephesians 4:18 (unbelievers) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
These verses tell me OSAS; but they also prevent 'easy-believism' or 'get-outta-hell-freecard' mentalities that often are used to discredit OSAS.
I do not believe that true believers of Christ who He has changed to be a new creature, a new man, all things become new, walking in newness of life, etc....will ever fall away, or be snatched out of His hands....not by someone else, and not by their own choice either; because Christ has done the work to transform and metamorphisize them as the potter forming the good work of clay, from the inside out.
I complete discount the stories of old Joe, who was a great godly Christian man, who had an epipheny later in life, and decided to renounce Christ and convert to Satanism, or Islam, or any of the other stories that are often used to denote a nOSAS situation....I say based on the verses above, old Joe was never Christ's to begin with and was only playing at being a Christian for a while; a facade, a outward reflection of an inward lie.
Those who belong to Christ will never turn from Him.
So consider those verses above, when you consider John 6:37-39, 65....I think they tell us quite a bit, related to what Jesus does to us, when He makes us New in Him.
If I may build on what David Taylor has just posted, I think these verses support exactly what David has said:
22 - Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 - And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Please note the word "never".
He changes us from the old man, trenched in sin, to a new creature, and a new man, made clean in His righteous good works. He makes within us a new nature grounded in Him.
Since He does that work in us, I do not believe it is possible for us, like your dog analogy, to execute a free-will decision to run away and be gone...because it is against the very nature that God Himself transformed with us, to ever want to chose to leave Him.
I simply don't by the assumption that truly born-again believers choose to execute their own free will and leave God; I don't believe their free-will would ever want to leave God.
We all sin, but those who Christ has changed will never leave or abandon Him.
Stumble sure, reject Christ, never....not those who He has transformed from the darkness into the light.
However, for those who are His, they will remain His because He changed them; and transformed their nature to be His. Jesus told us that we can tell by their fruit, and perhaps a more intimate knowledge and daily-interaction with Charles Templeton would have shown this to those who knew him well; maybe not. But regardless of the skill or ability to deceive, noone who is Christ's will 'become an athiest'.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom_7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom_10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
And of course...
Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.
Don't see these quoted too often.
...us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." 8:4
Clearly (Rm8:12-14) we are given a choice, to walk after the flesh (if we do we must die); or by the Spirit putting to death the flesh and we live. So no, we DO NOT have an active sin nature, we who are saved and abide in Jesus (in whom there is no sin! 1Jn3:5!) and who do not walk in flesh/sin-nature.
True; but only when we SUCCUMB to lust-of-the-flesh do we die (James1:14-16!).Even though we renew our mind, the sin of the flesh is still there, presenting it self in every manner of lust and enticing that it can muster,
What do you think 1Cor10:12-13 means? Paul says (13) that temptation is always before us, but God graciously gives us an escape that we may be able to stand against sin. Verse 12:
"Therefore let he who thinks he STAND take heed, lest he FALL."
What do you think Paul meant by "fall"?
You dismiss the reality that we have the SAME risk of deception as EVE did.Adam and Eve before the fall never had a sin nature..Originally Posted by Gadget
What is that "same-risk-of-deception", Colight? If one is "deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ", is he still saved?
(Hint --- NO.)
Actually, Jesus restored what was lost; he who abides in Jesus has the same fellowship in spirit, that Adam and Eve had in person.Their choice created a result that could never return to its previous state,
He (she) who abides in that spiritual fellowship, will one day have the IN-PERSON fellowship also, that Adam and Eve had.
If I were to believe that, then I would believe that no man has a defense against things like pornography. We do; the defense is to draw near to God, and He draws near to us, that we triumph over temptation.Then you will meet Eve, and know what he was thinking.
Perfect woman, holding fruit will be the down fall of every man,
Oh come on!Even if the do not repent,, the sin is still covered,,
Christ died for ALL sin, even unrepentant ones.
"Unless you repent, you WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3
If UNREPENTANT sin is still covered, then how will Jesus know the SHEEP, from the GOATS? If it looks like a goat, if it SMELLS like a goat, it's a GOAT! (Unrepentant sinner.)
So you scratch out verses like 1Jn5:12? "He who has the Son HAS ETERNAL LIFE".Cannot lose what is not ours to possess...
Psalms 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD;...
You read that (or maybe you don't), and think "We cannot have eternal life"?
Wrong; "Every branch that does NOT bear fruit is taken away ...cut off and cast into the fire!" Jn15:2-6We are slaves to Christ, he bought us,.
We can either be productive slaves or unproductive..
Not if we reject Him!But at the end of the day we are his property, FOREVER,.
Hah hah hah! So those horrible reprobates of 2Pet2:14-18, who are animals fit only to be killed, but who (in verse 1) were "bought by the Master" --- they're still SAVED???1 Cor 6
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Gosh, that will tickle a lot of ears that want to walk in sin, Colight.
Hmmm; in verse 13 (and only Luke15:13), he was carousing and getting drunk and lying with harlots --- but he was a still-SAVED-drunk/fornicating/carouser!!!Prodigal Son was a son to his Father by birth,
A position he could never change for the fathers genetics are part of his very essence.
Do you really believe that, Colight?
Wow; so exactly what IS belief, that allows a person to be SAVED but does not require CHANGE from sin and debauchery?So even while he was out fornicating, he was his fathers son, just as much as when he was feeding the pigs, or returning home.
Somehow we get exemptions from 1Cor6:9-11, from Eph5:5-6, and from Gal5:19-21? Each of those plainly say "Those who DO these things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM".
And you find waivers that say "Oh don't worry, they'll still inherit"???
Don't you see a problem with this? Hint --- 1Jn3:5-10, "Do not be deceived; by this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed --- he who practices sin IS NOT OF GOD".
How wide is your marker when you're marking out passages like what I just cited? No offense meant.
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