John 6 and (N)OSAS

[Bandit]

cooperation for salvation in what form..

The one to be saved must do certain things to be (or remain) saved.

[Gadgeteer]

Yet doctrine disagrees,
The doctrine of the gospel states... Christ was judged for ALL sin.

Hi,"Colight". Jesus said (Jn8:24) that unless we believe in Him, we shall die in our sins. Can you explain how Jesus was judged for those sins?

The believer or UNBELIEVER will never see eternal judgment over sin.

Therefore sin can NEVER hold us back from salvation.

Romans2:6-8 and Rev20:12 disagree.

What can prevent salvation is man rejection of what God has done in trade for his own self generated righteousness...

True; but those who reject God, only dwell in sin. Sins expose that a person did not belong to God. 1Jn3:6.

It is MANs own good works of the flesh that condemn him at the last judgment. Not his sin.

In Rom8:12-14, the "deeds of the flesh/body" are equated with sins.

Christ was judged for sin. ALL SIN!

I disagree; He did not pay for the sins of those who did not repent. Well, technically He paidfor them, but they refused His loving payment.

The unbeliever builds his own judgment in essence thru his good and righteous deeds.

You believe that rotten sinners do righteous deeds? What about Jesus' words in Matt7 that "no bad tree can produce good fruit"?

Lk13:3 --- Jesus: "Unless you repent, you will perish."

irrelevant..
You are out of context, and I have ceased jumping here and there over verses.

It's not irrelevant; men dwell EITHER in sin, or in Jesus.

I am looking for a presentation of a doctrinal case, not 'What about THIS VERSE or that VERSE!!!'

All the verses harmonize.

What you state is the heart of legalism, only thru following rules can one be salved..(aka do not sin) rather than grace.
It is adding legalism to salvation.. which is not salvation.

Then you didn't understand, or I didn't say it clearly. Those who follow Jesus have put to DEATH the flesh, they do not walk in sin. It is the power of the indwelling Son and Spirit by which we overcome sin. Practicing-sin exposes who does not belong to God, but who belongs to the devil. 1Jn3:10.

You ignore grace, with a trend to legalism.. God knows we are of sin.

No, such WERE some of us --- but we were washed justified and sanctified. We are practicing sinners no longer. 1Cor6:9-11.

You sir are grossly ignoring the context of that passage.
which is

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

It is not a passage over salvation, rather over national blessings.
He is writing to the ROMANS and explaining why Israel is cut off, at a NATIONAL level.
And if God would cut off his own nation, he will cut off gentile nations also.

Explain to us how a nation can be cut off for unbelief, unless the members IN that nation cease to believe? And --- how is it "_A_ nation", when it says "branchES" plural? What's the other nation(s)?

He meant "branches-plural", individual JEWS. He's speaking to individual Gentiles, "you a natural branch, each of you".

Therefore to defend legalism, a distortion of scripture is used.
This is why I rejected the doctrinal out come you support.

I'm citing precise verses; let's engage them. If no one looks them up, what if I'm misquoting? I might be, y'know.

Hebrews is about staying in the race and moving on to more advanced things..

Did you look up all those verses? Chapter after chapter he's admonishing "STAY SAVED"! 12:7-9 is perhaps the most powerful; it's nothing other than "ceasing to be BORN-AGAIN".

If one is not even secure in their salvation which is a milk doctrine how can they be expected to understand the more advanced doctrines of spiritual growth to occupation with Christ.

What does "security" mean to you? In 2Pet1:5-11, Peter admonishes us (against the man who FELL from salvation) to "make our calling and election bebaios-firm/steadfast". Did Peter teach that we had a part in our own security? Did Paul teach that (1Tim4:16)? How about Jesus (Luke21:19)?

Like that passage in Romans..
To defend legalism passages are taken out of Context and ONE-LINERS are developed to support another gospel.

I think "fallible salvation" is very clear. It's easy for someone to say "No it's not, our salvation is secure forever" --- but only by actually engaging verses like we've been discussing does either of our positions have credibility.

A gospel of salvation by legalism.

Never said it, never implied it. Salvation by ABIDING in Christ, though CONTINUOUS faith.

I have gone over these passage with you before, yet you use the same lines..
copy and paste..
no doctrine..

I've responded patiently each time, with ZERO copy-and-paste. I've been known to exceed 80wpm typing with very few mistakes. No brag, just fact.

no in depth examination of the doctrine you support..
only what about this verse and that verse..

Easy to say; now engage the verses and see if you can prove it.

I am looking for the doctrine that is taught.. Not verses posted in my face.
You fail to teach doctrine, I wish to test it..

On what is your doctrine based, if not on verses of Scripture?

You have not presented it in a manner that is open for testing.

I think you're right, but for a different reason --- the verses are clear. May we interact with them?

For we are warned....

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

To me what sort of doctrine is it that we can not trust in Christ and his grace to keep us when we fall?
Let us see it for testing.

Excellent citation (reminds me of 2Cor11:3). Please tell us how someone can depart from a faith that he's never HAD?

Sounds like more legalism..
man avoiding sin is not a way to maintain salvation.. that is works of the flesh.
We started in the spirit, why is it suddenly works of the flesh make us perfect?

On what basis do you think those in 2Pet2:20-22 did not fall from salvation?

Unbelievers can not run this race.
They are the only ones that are disqualified/rejected!

"Race so as to WIN" --- you're right, unbelievers cannot win; but neither can this have been written TO unbelievers.

The fact we are on the track means we are qualified, even if we never get past the starting gate.
We can NEVER be removed from the track.

The word "adokimos" conjured in the minds of the audience "evaluating coins". Periodic examinations would be held to see if the coins had lost the image impressed upon them; if they were worn, they were "adokimos-disqualified". Therefore, Paul said he HIMSELF could be disqualified (1Cor9:27), and WE could be disqualified (2Cor13:5)!

You forget...Antinomianism is not a method to obtain salvation or keep salvation.
Therefore it is irrelevant..

That was my point; "saved SPIRIT but sinning FLESH" violates 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and especially 1Jn3:5-10.

Just as legalism is not a way to obtain salvation or keep salvation.

No one said it was.

Christ is the protector and keeper of our salvation.

True again; but how does Jude20-21 fit in with Jude24?

We who are saved are His property and we will never cease being his.

Bold and solid statement; but unless you can support it with Scripture, it's not so solid, is it?

[Gadgeteer]

Two things --- first, it is arrogant to think we can NOT become UNSAVED

It is arrogant to say our salvation belongs to God?

I didn't say that, Paul did. Throughout Scripture "fallible salvation" is clear. Look at how we went through Hebrews (still looking forward to your interacting with all those cited verses).

second we do have a full hand in our own salvation

Then what you state is not grace, it is very clear that salvation is thru grace

In 1Tim4:16 we save ourselves. In 1Pet1:9 salvation is the outcome of OUR faith. How do you perceive we do NOT have a hand in our salvation?

The dynamic of joining with God and eternal life has always been by faith; Deut30:11-20 is cited directly by Paul in Rom10:6-10, and connects with Acts17:26-31. Clearly asserted is "choose life by loving God, by obeying Him and holding fast to Him".


On Eph2:8, noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator (New Testament) A.T.Roberts said "Grace is God's part, faith is ours".

Why do you think voluntary faith that receives God's gift of grace, becomes "legalism"? Legalism asserts we work our OWN righteousness to please God --- grace asserts we receive GOD'S righteousness and His grace.

How do you perceive "receive" not being a choice?

[Colight]

The one to be saved must do certain things to be (or remain) saved.

Since salvation belongs to God, it seems God would be the one doing those things..
If salvation belonged to us, then perhaps there could be a point.
What Things would a perfect God need for imperfection to do, with out tainting perfection?
IF any step of salvation depended on imperfection, then by default for perfection to remain pure all imperfection must be rejected.

[Colight]

I didn't say that, Paul did. Throughout Scripture "fallible salvation" is clear. Look at how we went through Hebrews (still looking forward to your interacting with all those cited verses).

I am looking for doctrine not a fuss over this verse and that verse.

In 1Tim4:16 we save ourselves. In 1Pet1:9 salvation is the outcome of OUR faith. How do you perceive we do NOT have a hand in our salvation?

I see context took a back seat with you on that one.Would you agree if some one preached messages that was not sound doctrine.. that salvation could be perverted?
Lets say they said you had to offer your first born to be saved.
Or give a certain amount to the church to be saved.

Why do you think voluntary faith that receives God's gift of grace, becomes "legalism"? Legalism asserts we work our OWN righteousness to please God --- grace asserts we receive GOD'S righteousness and His grace.

How do you perceive "receive" not being a choice?

Yet you just posted out of context verses saying we save our self
Gods righteousness needs no work from us to have salvation,.

God stated Believe on Christ for with the result you are born again.
How much effort did you put in your birth of the flesh?
Wasnt you just along for the ride?
Now after that birth of the flesh, if you wanted to make something of your self then you would need to go to school and learn a career.
Same with salvation.. believe then you are along for the ride... then after that if you want to grow then you have to hit the books and bible class.

We can not crawl back into the womb to be what we was before birth, so it is with spiritual birth.

[Gadgeteer]

The one to be saved must do certain things to be (or remain) saved.

Excellent post. In Matt7:24-27, Jesus said he who DOES His words is ...wise... but he who does NOT do His words is ...foolish...

We cannot be wise or foolish, if "doing/believing" is not our choice. Belief is not a one-time-choice, either. Eph5:18 "be filled with the Spirit", 2Cor5:20 "be reconciled to God", Eph4:22-24 (which says to lay aside the sinful man and put on the new righteous man, BE regenerated), and many more convey constant diligence. The word "diligence" appears many places, like Heb6:11-12, 2Pet1:5-11 and 3:17, and is clearly the message of Philip1:9-10 and 2:15. And many more verses.

[Gadgeteer]

I am looking for doctrine not a fuss over this verse and that verse.

If Doctrine is not based on Scripture, then what is it based on?

In 1Tim4:16 we save ourselves. In 1Pet1:9 salvation is the outcome of OUR faith. How do you perceive we do NOT have a hand in our salvation?

I see context took a back seat with you on that one. Would you agree if some one preached messages that was not sound doctrine.. that salvation could be perverted?
Lets say they said you had to offer your first born to be saved.
Or give a certain amount to the church to be saved.

Let's deal with only 1Tim4:16:

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your doctrine; persevere in these things; as you do you will save yourselves.."

Tell us the context that explains how this is not warning us to abide in salvation?

Why do you think voluntary faith that receives God's gift of grace, becomes "legalism"? Legalism asserts we work our OWN righteousness to please God --- grace asserts we receive GOD'S righteousness and His grace.

How do you perceive "receive" not being a choice?

Yet you just posted out of context verses saying we save our self
Gods righteousness needs no work from us to have salvation,.

I look forward to your explanation as to how 1Tim4:16 is not "continue-in-salvation".

God stated Believe on Christ for with the result you are born again.
How much effort did you put in your birth of the flesh?

Per Jn1:12, the right to become adopted children does not exist before believing and receiving Jesus. I think you read Jn1:13 and think it's ALL God's choice, rather than recognizing verse 13 assert the begottenness is all of God and nothing of us; but that does not negate verse 12's claim that the right to become begotten is given to those who believe and receive Jesus.

In simple English, the gift is all of God and nothing of us, but we must receive the gift by choice.

Weren't you just along for the ride?

Did I have to get in the "car"? Or did I suddenly wake up one day IN the "car of salvation"?

Now after that birth of the flesh, if you wanted to make something of yourself then you would need to go to school and learn a career.
Same with salvation.. believe then you are along for the ride... then after that if you want to grow then you have to hit the books and bible class.

Believe --- what does that mean to you? If one chooses to believe at first, does he not choose to believe tomorrow, and the next day?

I'd like to discuss all the verses that speak of our being able to STOP believing. Like Heb3:6-14, where sin can harden us to unbelieving hearts that fall away from God.

Just (as on?) the leash we cannot crawl back into the womb to be what we were before birth, so it is with spiritual birth.

What makes you think a born-again person, cannot become unborn?

In Heb12:7-9, we have become partakers/partners (metochos! Heb3:1 & 14!) in His discipline, past tense; but if we are now without His discipline (present tense), then we are NOT sons (not any longer!) but illegitimate.

"SHALL we not much rather BE in submission to (the discipline of) the Father ...AND LIVE?"

Tell us how that's not a constant choice to live eternally. How else can it be understood?

Since salvation belongs to God, it seems God would be the one doing those things..

If we have no part in our being saved or not, then what does God judge us on?

If salvation belonged to us, then perhaps there could be a point.

"Receive as the outcome of your faith salvation." 1Jn1:9.

How does "our faith" affect salvation, in Peter's words?

[Colight]

If Doctrine is not based on Scripture, then what is it based on?
Let's deal with only 1Tim4:16:

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your doctrine; persevere in these things; as you do you will save yourselves.."

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

What are they being saved from?
The chapter in CONTEXT is discussing corrupt doctrine and teaching.
They are not in danger of losing their +Righteousness with God. This foundation is firm.
They thru unsound doctrine could be in falling into the traps of the demonic doctrine that was stated earlier in that chapter.
The result of unsound teaching can affect their spiritual growth and even be the cause for divine flogging.

Not every time in scripture when the word saved is mentioned, does it refer to salvation
There for to make this a passage of INSECURE SALVATION is a play on words and a disregard for the context.

What makes you think a born-again person, cannot become unborn?

What makes you think a child can crawl back into its moms wombs and once more be a fetus?
When I see that occur, then your position may have some merit


As I stated before I am NOT going to jump from this verse to that verse.
Yet still ..you are a pasting bible verse machine, rather than a discussion on the doctrine behind them.

Basically I want from you is straight talk..not the bible paste machine..

Can we trust God for our salvation? If we cant then what use is he?

Can a all powerful God keep it for us, even should we fail?
IF he can not then why do I need him?

God being absolute perfection, would have not choice but to judge imperfection.
Man is imperfection therefore any good man does any righteousness man does is rejected by God.
It is impossible for man in his imperfect state to please God with any attempts to keep salvation.

This is why I reject your dogma that we must work to keep it.

[mailmandan]

16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

What are they being saved from?
The chapter in CONTEXT is discussing corrupt doctrine and teaching.
They are not in danger of losing their +Righteousness with God. This foundation is firm.
They thru unsound doctrine could be in falling into the traps of the demonic doctrine that was stated earlier in that chapter.
The result of unsound teaching can affect their spiritual growth and even be the cause for divine flogging.

Not every time in scripture when the word saved is mentioned, does it refer to salvation
There for to make this a passage of INSECURE SALVATION is a play on words and a disregard for the context.

Interesting point. We can save ourselves and others from getting mixed up by unsound teaching by continuing to take heed to ourselves and correct doctrine. In regards to salvation, it's Christ who saves us. We can't save ourselves.

[Gadgeteer]

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

What are they being saved from?
The chapter in CONTEXT is discussing corrupt doctrine and teaching.
They are not in danger of losing their +Righteousness with God. This foundation is firm.

What in the verse states "Their foundation is firm"? That is external doctrine. Let's consult Robertson:

Take heed to thyself (epece seautwi). Present active imperative of old verb epecw, to hold upon ( Philippians 2:1 Philippians 2:16 ), but here ton noun (the mind) must be supplied as in Acts 3:5 and as is common with prosecw. With dative case seautwi. "Keep on paying attention to thyself." Some young preachers are careless about their health and habits. Some are too finical. And to the teaching (kai th didaskaliai). This is important also. Continue in these things (epimene autoi). Present active imperative of epimenw, old and common verb to stay by the side of a person or thing. See Romans 6:1 ; Colossians 1:23 . "Stay by them," "stick to them," "see them through." "Stick to the business of framing your own life and your teaching on right lines" (Parry). Thou shalt save (swsei). Future active of swzw, effective future, finally save. Cf. 1 Corinthians 9:27 ; John 10:9 .

You say "this is not eternal salvation" --- Robertson says it is. He cites 1Cor9:27, where Paul himself could lose salvation. He cites John10:9, "if anyone enters through me he shall be SAVED".

Refer to 2Pet1:5-11, and tell me what makes our foundation firm, Colight. Our diligence to MAKE our calling AND election/salvation is required of US, so that we are not like the man in verse 9 who WAS PURIFIED (saved!) but now is immoral/ungodly/uncontrolled/unloving/unkind!!!

They thru unsound doctrine could be in falling into the traps of the demonic doctrine that was stated earlier in that chapter.

"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons."

I used a larger font to focus in on their "FALLING FROM THE FAITH", but you say "they didn't fall from eternal life". Exactly how in the whole universe did they not fall from salvation? Did they fall from faith they never HAD? Or did they turn to demons but still remained saved? Which?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ". 2Cor11:3.

You're proposing a "deceived-away-from-Christ-STILL-SAVED" position. Some who are "fallen into traps of demonic doctrine STILL-SAVED". If you'll take a couple steps back and re-think that, I believe you'll begin to recognize the non-credibility.

The result of unsound teaching can affect their spiritual growth and even be the cause for divine flogging.

I see; we can be "deceived by demonic doctrines", we can be "led astray from our devotion to Christ", but that does not compromise our salvation one bit; oh no, we'll just lose a few CROWNS and --- don't worry, GOD will ALWAYS MAKE SURE we come back.

In spite of James saying that if we lead back someone who strays, THEN his soul will be saved and his sins will be covered again. Jms5:19-20.

With sincere respect, and kind consideration --- your doctrine sounds more and more like an extra-Biblical invention, doesn't it?

Not every time in scripture when the word saved is mentioned, does it refer to salvation

It does in 1Tim4:16. That aligns perfectly with 2Pet1:5-11, unless you're willing to propose Peter was asserting an ABUNDANT entrance for the diligent-righteous-saved-believers, but a SPARSE entrance into God's kingdom for the undiligent-WICKED-saved-believers!

New American Standard translates "sōzō" in 1Ti4:16 as "ENSURE SALVATION"!

Therefore to make this a passage of INSECURE SALVATION is a play on words and a disregard for the context.

I think the context conveys just fine "fallible salvation". Look at chapter 6 --- verses 10, and 20-21 --- more "fallible salvation" warnings.

What makes you think a child can crawl back into its moms wombs and once more be a fetus?

What makes me think? Are we arguing what _I_ think? Or what you think? Or are we studying what Scripture thinks?

"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons.
...But if you ARE without discipline (present tense), of which all (saved!) have become partners (past tense)...
then you are illegitimate (present tense) and not sons (not any longer).
...SHALL we not much rather BE in submission to God's (discipline), AND LIVE?"

In what way can "LIVE", not fully mean "eternal-life/salvation"? In what way is that not a choice to stay saved?

When I see that occur, then your position may have some merit

Now you've seen it --- will you change your doctrine to fit Scripture?

As I stated before I am NOT going to jump from this verse to that verse.

With respect, that means "I am not going to engage verses that conflict my doctrine".

Yet still ..you are a pasting bible verse machine, rather than a discussion on the doctrine behind them.

Well then, please discuss the doctrine behind your beliefs. As I've attempted in this post --- please answer the verses.

Basically I want from you is straight talk..not the bible paste machine..

No offense meant --- that is our problem, you've been embracing what you consider "straight talk", rather than Scripture.

Can we trust God for our salvation? If we cant then what use is He?

We can trust Him just as Paul described in 2Tim1:13-14 --- we entrust ourselves to Him by faith, and we guard the treasure of salvation that He entrusts to us. We guard, by the power of the Spirit.

...you are actually not proposing "trusting God", you are proposing that God GUARANTEES salvation, so we don't have to trust at all. "Trust" is an act of faith.

Can a all powerful God keep it for us, even should we fail?

Does God TRAMPLE our freedom to refuse to love Him? Can "love demand its own way"? 1Cor13:5!

IF he can not then why do I need him?

What did Jesus say to Peter in Luke22? "I made sure your faith did not fail"? No, that's not what He said, was it?

"I PRAYED that your faith not fail; and when you TURNED BACK, strengthen your brothers."

God being absolute perfection, would have no choice but to judge imperfection.

What does this mean? That we can be IMPERFECT and God will JUDGE us but He'll OVERLOOK it and fling wide the gates of Heaven to us?

Man is imperfection therefore any good man does any righteousness man does is rejected by God.

And that is why it is not OUR righteousness by which we are saved; it was Jesus'.

It is impossible for man in his imperfect state to please God with any attempts to keep salvation.

Then it is impossible for man to be saved in the FIRST place. For if man does not choose each day to believe and abide in Christ, then he cannot be forcibly-drawn ("helkuo" Jn12:32) to where he CAN believe (Acts17:26-27) in the first place.

It cannot be "voluntary belief" at first, but then GOD-GUARANTEED belief from then on. And if it's not "voluntary belief" (Jn7:17) at first, then He has no reason to judge us for what we chose.

This is why I reject your dogma that we must work to keep it.

Not "work to keep IT" --- but "diligent to abide in HIM".

See the difference?

[Gadgeteer]

Interesting point. We can save ourselves and others from getting mixed up by unsound teaching by continuing to take heed to ourselves and correct doctrine. In regards to salvation, it's Christ who saves us. We can't save ourselves.

Hi, Dan. Paul said "we save ourselves". While it's true there is only one Savior, Paul is noting our participation.

It's the same in Ezk18:31 --- while only GOD can "make our hearts and spirits new", Ezekiel notes our participation with:
"Make for YOURSELF a new heart and a new spirit."

My previous post was one of the most hard-hitting I've made; I would really relish hearing (reading?) your thoughts on it.

Thanx!

:-)

[Colight]

What in the verse states "Their foundation is firm"? That is external doctrine.

1 cor 3
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

ONLY CHRIST can lay the foundation that is salvation..
What we build on the foundation is up to us, but the FOUNDATION is Christ.
The INSECURE salvation position is Christ is NOT a solid foundation.
This is why I reject that doctrine.

You're proposing a "deceived-away-from-Christ-STILL-SAVED" position. Some who are "fallen into traps of demonic doctrine STILL-SAVED". If you'll take a couple steps back and re-think that, I believe you'll begin to recognize the non-credibility.

It is VERY creditable, for it allows freedom to build upon the base foundation Christ has laid.
Heaven will not be equal, some will have great access and rewards others will be eternal peons white robes and minus the lake of fire.

It is very UN-CREDITABLE to have the foundation that is Christ to be unstable.

I see; we can be "deceived by demonic doctrines", we can be "led astray from our devotion to Christ", but that does not compromise our salvation one bit; oh no, we'll just lose a few CROWNS and --- don't worry, GOD will ALWAYS MAKE SURE we come back.

Yeah that grace thing, sure ticks off the legalists, remember this... the sin of arrogance is more vile to God than some booty call made by a Christian on a night on the town. Christ also was judged for that arrogance.

In spite of James saying that if we lead back someone who strays, THEN his soul will be saved and his sins will be covered again. Jms5:19-20.

Out of context once more.
If one turns a believer who is sinning, you save them from the sin unto death ( divine discipline ) and thru that recovery ( 1 john 1:9) a) will prevent many sins from occurring for they are now in fellowship b) will avoid the discipline that would occur upon them because of these sins..

NOTHING ABOUT LOSING SALVATION OR REGAINING SALVATION!!!
Their salvation is secure as is the discipline they was about to receive.
You are adding a external doctrine to state in and out salvation....

With sincere respect, and kind consideration --- your doctrine sounds more and more like an extra-Biblical invention, doesn't it?

Christ as a weak foundation is the only extra-Biblical invention I have seen in this thread thus far.. and it is not me promoting that doctrine.

What does this mean? That we can be IMPERFECT and God will JUDGE us but He'll OVERLOOK it and fling wide the gates of Heaven to us?

And that is why it is not OUR righteousness by which we are saved; it was Jesus'.
Then it is impossible for man to be saved in the FIRST place. For if man does not choose each day to believe and abide in Christ, then he cannot be forcibly-drawn ("helkuo" Jn12:32) to where he CAN believe (Acts17:26-27) in the first place.

It cannot be "voluntary belief" at first, but then GOD-GUARANTEED belief from then on. And if it's not "voluntary belief" (Jn7:17) at first, then He has no reason to judge us for what we chose.
Not "work to keep IT" --- but "diligent to abide in HIM".

See the difference?

I really cant see what you are posting, since what you are posting is very complex.

We are told the gospel is SIMPLE.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Even to just believe on the NAME of Christ results in salvation.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

There is no struggle to keep saved.
It is a one way street, once you are saved it is a birth that lasts forever.

God has made it very simple.. he has done all the grunt work thru Christ.

When when Peter walked on the water to Christ, did not Christ reach out and save him when he sank.. even so it is with us.
When we sink.... Christ will keep us.. Christ has nothing but a wonderful record on his faithfulness in keeping those that are his and all believers are his.

To me it is the doctrine of Satan to bring wrong teachings, doubts and reasoning to attack such faithfulness of Christ and add complexity to that which is simple..

As Paul stated..
2 Cor 11
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.


Trusting Christ = Simple.
Trying to keep saved every day and struggling to keep the right thoughts or there is HELLL FIRE!!!( God forbid you have a stray thought on the day you die ) = Complex.

Relaxing in faith in Christ = Simple
Stressin that this day is the day you fall away into DAMNATION AND HELLL FIRE !!!!!!! = Complex

Christ keeping our salvation for us = SIMPLE
Stressing EVERY day that you will loose salvation and face HELLFIRE AND DAAAMNATSHUNN!! = complex

Christ as our foundation = Simple.. one can build on that foundation with relative ease.

We make our own foundation that will fall apart at the slightest whims of the flesh or wrong thoughts ( remember if you have a thought of fornication or pride it is to God as if you have done that ) = Complex.

Focus on Christ = Simple
Focus on our self = Complex ( also if we are focused on our self are we still focused on Christ? )

Thinking of God = Simple
Thinking of Man =Complex....therefore why I see insecure salvation as the thinking of man.

[mailmandan]

Hi, Dan. Paul said "we save ourselves". While it's true there is only one Savior, Paul is noting our participation.

Hi Gadgeteer,

So by saving ourselves from getting mixed up by unsound teaching by continuing to take heed to ourselves and correct doctrine, you are saying that we end up saving ourselves from being deceived away from Christ to the point that our faith is no more and we lose our salvation? In light of that, "save yourself" sounds like a man who fell into a well and the only way out is for someone to throw him a rope and pull him out. By this man choosing to take hold of the rope and hanging on until he makes it all the way out of the well, in a sense you could say he "saved himself" by choosing to grab the rope and continue to hang on, but ultimately, the person who pulled him out of the well really saved him. Does that analogy fit what you are trying to say?

It's the same in Ezk18:31 --- while only GOD can "make our hearts and spirits new", Ezekiel notes our participation with:
"Make for YOURSELF a new heart and a new spirit."

I agree that we don't actually make our hearts and spirits new ourselves, our response causes this to happen. The house of Israel's response was repentance (Ezekiel 18:30-32) and making their hearts and spirits new was what God accomplished. (Exekiel 36:26).

My previous post was one of the most hard-hitting I've made; I would really relish hearing (reading?) your thoughts on it.

Sure, I'll check it out and share my thoughts. I don't have time to respond to the entire post, but I'll start with your first statement.

What in the verse states "Their foundation is firm"? That is external doctrine. Let's consult Robertson: You say "this is not eternal salvation" --- Robertson says it is. He cites 1Cor9:27, where Paul himself could lose salvation. He cites John10:9, "if anyone enters through me he shall be SAVED".

I have respect for AT Robertson as a Greek scholar. In his comments on 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward (misqo) of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18 , his glorying of preaching a free gospel? He comments that most writers take Paul to refer to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with that interpretation is I see a difference between a prize and a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). Also, in verse 24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life either. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only ONE receives the gold medal. Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified? Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only "one" of us is going to heaven. Jesus is certainly the Door, through faith in Him is our only way to be saved.

[Gadgeteer]

1 cor 3
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

ONLY CHRIST can lay the foundation that is salvation..

Hi, Colight. The foundation is not salvation, it's Jesus. That's the point --- in Matt16:18 in no way was Jesus saying "On PETER I will build My church".

What we build on the foundation is up to us, but the FOUNDATION is Christ.

That's right. Not Peter.

The INSECURE salvation position is Christ is NOT a solid foundation.

Recognize that "election" and "salvation" are interchangeable in Scripture; thus 2Pet1:5-11 says "make your SALVATION bebaios-steadfast/firm". We. Us. By our diligence make our salvation firm. Peter said it, I believe it --- do you?

This is why I reject that doctrine.

Have you marked out 2Pet1:5-11? No offense meant --- Peter said it, will you believe it?

You're proposing a "deceived-away-from-Christ-STILL-SAVED" position. Some who are "fallen into traps of demonic doctrine STILL-SAVED". If you'll take a couple steps back and re-think that, I believe you'll begin to recognize the non-credibility.

It is VERY credible, for it allows freedom to build upon the base foundation Christ has laid.

Colossians2:8 says "...taken captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the eleementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." But you perceive "away-from-Christ-SAVED" --- and don't see a conflict.

2Cor11:3 says "...led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ" --- but you perceive "astray from ...Christ but still saved". And you don't see conflict.

Heaven will not be equal, some will have great access and rewards others will be eternal peons white robes and minus the lake of fire.

Ahh, my mistake. Salvation is by embracing Jesus according to the gospel He gave. Gal1:6 speaks of deserting Jesus for another gospel --- but you perceive "a different gospel will only lose us CROWNS, once we're 'IN' we have it made!

It is very UN-CREDIBLE to have the foundation that is Christ to be unstable.

The foundation is not made-firm by us; our position ON it is.

Yeah that grace thing, sure ticks off the legalists, remember this... the sin of arrogance is more vile to God than some booty call made by a Christian on a night on the town. Christ also was judged for that arrogance.

You're not arguing with me; you're arguing with Peter, and Paul, and James, and John, and Jesus --- all of 'em.

In spite of James saying that if we lead back someone who strays, THEN his soul will be saved and his sins will be covered again. Jms5:19-20.

Out of context once more.
If one turns a believer who is sinning, you save them from the sin unto death (divine discipline ) and thru that recovery ( 1 john 1:9) a) will prevent many sins from occurring for they are now in fellowship b) will avoid the discipline that would occur upon them because of these sins..

NOTHING ABOUT LOSING SALVATION OR REGAINING SALVATION!!!

I see --- so "save-a-soul-from-DEATH" becomes "not-in-danger-of-death, that's out of context". Tell us the context that makes "save-soul-from-death", into "not-save-a-soul-from-death".

OR tell us the context that makes "wander-away-from-the-faith" into "never-really-had-the-faith (didn't wander)".
[quote[Their salvation is secure as is the discipline they were about to receive.[/quote]And we should scratch out Heb12:7-9, if we do NOT submit to His discipline then we are NOT sons but illegitimate.

Tell us the context that makes "SHALL we not BE in submission to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, AND LIVE?" --- into "the saved cannot refuse God's discipline and die". Please include verse 12:25 in the explanation.

You are adding a external doctrine to state in and out salvation....

I've given you dozens of "internal Scripture quotes" --- and you just say "external". You're not arguing with me.

Christ as a weak foundation is the only extra-Biblical invention I have seen in this thread thus far.. and it is not me promoting that doctrine.

No one said JESUS is a weak foundation; but we rest on Him BY faith, and we make our ELECTION/SALVATION firm/steadfast. Peter. First letter. Chapter one. Verses five through eleven. And dozens of other corroborating verses.

What does this mean? That we can be IMPERFECT and God will JUDGE us but He'll OVERLOOK it and fling wide the gates of Heaven to us?

And that is why it is not OUR righteousness by which we are saved; it was Jesus'.
Then it is impossible for man to be saved in the FIRST place. For if man does not choose each day to believe and abide in Christ, then he cannot be forcibly-drawn ("helkuo" Jn12:32) to where he CAN believe (Acts17:26-27) in the first place.

It cannot be "voluntary belief" at first, but then GOD-GUARANTEED belief from then on. And if it's not "voluntary belief" (Jn7:17) at first, then He has no reason to judge us for what we chose.
Not "work to keep IT" --- but "diligent to abide in HIM".

See the difference?

I really cant see what you are posting, since what you are posting is very complex.

You can't understand what I'm posting, because it conflicts with what you have embraced as doctrine. What I said is simple --- "abide in Christ". It's a choice from the start, and it's a choice until we die.

That's why Paul wrote in Rom1:17 "...from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith"!

We are told the gospel is SIMPLE.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But the previous verse says "BE reconciled to God" --- that's plain and simple "abide in Christ".

Even to just believe on the NAME of Christ results in salvation.

There's actually a deeper issue in plied in that --- we must DIE to sin, and become alive to God through Christ. James2:19 very clearly says "mere belief ain't enough".

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

See? It's not "mere belief", but RECEIVING Him.

There is no struggle to keep saved.

Then you scratch out Jude20-21?

It is a one way street, once you are saved it is a birth that lasts forever.

Not according to Hebrews12:7-9.

I asked something of Dan, let me ask you also --- refer to 1Jn3:9 --- no one born of God CAN sin! Yet, sin is always before us (1Cor10:12-13), clearly possible. How? There's only one explanation --- born-again is fallible! There's no other way.

God has made it very simple.. he has done all the grunt work thru Christ.

But it's THROUGH our faith --- faith the start, and faith the goal. Beginning to ending. Romans1:17!

When when Peter walked on the water to Christ, did not Christ reach out and save him when he sank.. even so it is with us.

Did Peter cry out to Jesus to SAVE him? YES!!! Matt14:30.

When we sink.... Christ will keep us.. Christ has nothing but a wonderful record on his faithfulness in keeping those that are his and all believers are his.

Only if we CRY OUT to Him --- continued faith!

To me it is the doctrine of satan to bring wrong teachings,

You mean like "deceived-by-demonic-doctrines-but-still-saved"?

doubts and reasoning to attack such faithfulness of Christ and add complexity to that which is simple..

Look at the faithfulness of Christ, in the face of our possible faithlessness and DENYING Him --- 2Tim2:11-13. Do you believe we can be "faithlessly saved"?

As Paul stated..
2 Cor 11
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Trusting Christ = Simple.

CAN we be led astray, or NOT? And is "led-astray", still saved?

Trying to keep saved every day and struggling to keep the right thoughts or there is HELL FIRE!!!( God forbid you have a stray thought on the day you die ) = Complex.

Fit what you say to the verses; no way you can, is there?

Relaxing in faith in Christ = Simple

unless we're DECEIVED AWAY FROM Christ!

Stress in that this day is the day you fall away into DAMNATION AND HELL FIRE !!!!!!! = Complex

So scratch out 1Tim4:16 too. And 1Tim6:10, 6:19-20, on and on...

Christ keeping our salvation for us = SIMPLE
Stressing EVERY day that you will lose salvation and face HELLFIRE AND DAMNASHUNN!! = complex

So scratch out Heb10:26-29 too.

Christ as our foundation = Simple.. one can build on that foundation with relative ease.

So scratch out 2Pet2:20-22, and 2Pet3:14-17.

We make our own foundation that will fall apart at the slightest whims of the flesh or wrong thoughts ( remember if you have a thought of fornication or pride it is to God as if you have done that ) = Complex.

So scratch out John15:2-6, and Rom11:18-23.

Focus on Christ = Simple
Focus on our self = Complex ( also if we are focused on our self are we still focused on Christ? )

Have you scratched out 2Tim2:11-13 yet?

Thinking of God = Simple
Thinking of Man =Complex....therefore why I see insecure salvation as the thinking of man.

I look forward to your thoughts on the many verses cited here, especially 2Pet1:5-11. How is it that we make our ELECTION firm, by our DILIGENCE?

[Colight]

Hi, Colight. The foundation is not salvation, it's Jesus.

Jesus IS salvation..
John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's the point --- in Matt16:18 in no way was Jesus saying "On PETER I will build My church".
That's right. Not Peter.

Recognize that "election" and "salvation" are interchangeable in Scripture; thus 2Pet1:5-11 says "make your SALVATION bebaios-steadfast/firm". We. Us. By our diligence make our salvation firm. Peter said it, I believe it --- do you?
Have you marked out 2Pet1:5-11? No offense meant --- Peter said it, will you believe it?

Colossians2:8 says "...taken captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the eleementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." But you perceive "away-from-Christ-SAVED" --- and don't see a conflict.

2Cor11:3 says "...led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ" --- but you perceive "astray from ...Christ but still saved". And you don't see conflict.

Ahh, my mistake. Salvation is by embracing Jesus according to the gospel He gave. Gal1:6 speaks of deserting Jesus for another gospel --- but you perceive "a different gospel will only lose us CROWNS, once we're 'IN' we have it made!
The foundation is not made-firm by us; our position ON it is.


OR tell us the context that makes "wander-away-from-the-faith" into "never-really-had-the-faith (didn't wander)".
Their salvation is secure as is the discipline they were about to receive.And we should scratch out Heb12:7-9, if we do NOT submit to His discipline then we are NOT sons but illegitimate.

Irrelevant ...
I was discussing 1 cor 3,... now you are verse jumping.
And your context is questionable.
I am not going to jump around to 200 verses and correct your context.
You are posting way to much there really is no way one can go thru it Nor should they.

The stand is here in 1 Cor 3....

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The only control we have is what we build on Christ.
The salvation of Christ is solid.. the foundation is secure.
You have to have a SECURE foundation before you can build.