John 6 and (N)OSAS

[Gadgeteer]

If "our free will" would rather please self, rather than pleasing Him, then we never really were a sheep to begin with, were we.

Hi, "Raybob". Where in Scripture is this? Take for instance the guy in James5:19-20 --- could he fall away from "where he never was", or be led back to "where he'd never been"?

Is a person God's SHEEP, before he believes? There are doctrines that say "yes" --- in spite of eph2 that says "we were formerly children of Hell even as the rest".

How can a "child-of-Hell-even-as-the-REST", be actually a "sheep-of-God"? Consider John10:9 --- if ANYONE ("tis") enters through Christ, he shall go in and out and find pasture. Is this not boldly stating, "shall become God's sheep"?

The simplest verse to solve the OSAS debate is John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Ahhh, but if "sheep" denotes belief, then what happens if one ceases to believe?

Consider Hebrews3 --- a warning not to harden our hearts, to be careful that SIN does not harden our hearts to unbelief that falls away from God! See the dynamic?

If "sheep" is one who believes, then one who ceases to believe, is no longer sheep.

Please consider two things:
1. 1Jn2:19 does not forbid that those who left may have BEEN saved, last year. They were unsaved WHEN they left.

2. 2Jn1:7-9 very plainly speaks to SAVED people, warning against deceivers, that they not go too far (or "go out from us"!!!) and cease to abide in Jesus' teachings so as to no LONGER have God!

3. 2Tim2:11-13 presents two positions --- if we died/endure then we shall reign with Him; (but) if we DENY Him and are faithless He will deny US (Matt10:33!) and we will NOT reign with Him, even though HE is faithful in spite of our faithlessness.

Please consider two things:

Oops, that was THREE. Oh well, Dad always said "there are three kinds of people in this world --- those who can count, and those who cannot."

When temptation comes along, do we succumb or do we call on Him? If we succumb, then we are NOSAS.

But to whom are the warnings "NOT to succumb", written?

1Cor10:12-13, James1:14-16, Hebrews3:6-14, and more --- to whom are these written???

[Gadgeteer]

Scriptures like this one?
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28)

"Harpazo", seize or remove forcibly. Does not say "cannot remove oneself by unbelief" (see cited verses previous post on coming to "unbelief").

That verse isn't speaking of "Christians" but of people that say they are Christians.

What? It says "Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first" --- and you insist they did NOT fall (were always "fallen"!) and did NOT do deeds commensurate with salvation?

Rather a "rewrite", isn't that? (No offense meant.)

Just like the following passage does.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Rev 3:16)

So Rev3:3 says "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent." --- and you say "Oh they can't REMEMBER 'cause they never really HAD it"?

Really?

-and-

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23)

Ahhh, they may not have been saved, in that instance. But you have alotta verses that plainly speak of "movement", falling from salvation.

Look at all the "deceive" verses --- we can be deceived away from Jesus by men in 1Jn2:26-28, in 2Jn1:7-9, in Col2:6-8, in 2Pet3:17, in 1Tim6:20-21, and many other places. Deceived away from Jesus by sin in James1:14-16 and Heb3:6-14; and deceived away from Jesus by bad angels in 1Tim4:1 and 2Cor11:3.

Do you really still embrace the idea that we cannot be deceived to unbelief, away from Jesus?

[Gadgeteer]

IMO the OSAS/nOSAS discussion cannot be properly grounded with proper understanding and consideration for verses like this.

II Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

and

Ephesians 4:18 (unbelievers) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

David, you're missing something here --- begin with Eph4:17:

"So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart...

Clearly rather than what you thought ("those who walk this way were NEVER saved"), what Paul is admonishing is "YOU saved DO NOT DO this, but LAY ASIDE the sinful man and PUT ON the new man and BE regenerated"!

and

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

As you cited, Eph4:22-24 is the perfect passage --- one does not admonish a person to LAY ASIDE the old sinful nature and to PUT ON the new godly nature, if it's a finished-done-deal!

Besides, if we are ONLY "new creations" and the old nature was dead and gone forever, we would be sinless, wouldn't we?

Christians are not sinless; we very much sin less.

and

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Again, Romans6 must be read with chapter 7 (the war between the two natures, old-sinful and new-godly); and with chapter 8, the solution to the war. We do not walk in sin, if we do WE MUST DIE; but if by the Spirit we put to death the flesh, we live.

Please read 2Tim1:12-14, were we guard by the Spirit's power the treasure of eternal life. What do you think Paul was teaching?

These verses tell me OSAS; but they also prevent 'easy-believism' or 'get-outta-hell-freecard' mentalities that often are used to discredit OSAS.

Do they still suggest "osas", since you've read the other citations?

I do not believe that true believers of Christ whom He has changed to be a new creature, a new man, all things become new, walking in newness of life, etc....will ever fall away, or be snatched out of His hands....not by someone else, and not by their own choice either; because Christ has done the work to transform and metamorphisize them as the potter forming the good work of clay, from the inside out.

Please focus on 2Cor5:17, "If anyone be IN CHRIST he is a new creation". All right? Now read 2Cor13:5 --- we are to test ourselves, to examine ourselves, to see if we ARE "in Christ"; and we can absolutely "fail-the-test" (be disqualified/unapproved)?

Do you know the word "adokimos/disqualified"? How do you think 2Cor13:5 (adokimos) connects with 1Cor9:25-27 (adokimos)? We are to race so as to WIN the immortal crown, and Paul himself could be "disqualified". What did he mean?

I complete discount the stories of old Joe, who was a great godly Christian man, who had an epiphany later in life, and decided to renounce Christ and convert to Satanism, or Islam, or any of the other stories that are often used to denote a OSNAS situation....I say based on the verses above, old Joe was never Christ's to begin with and was only playing at being a Christian for a while; a facade, a outward reflection of an inward lie.

Yet we have instances of those who were saved but fell. Heb10:29 is one; a man who was sanctified by Jesus' blood but now scorns that blood, tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit. Recognize that the man in 29 is us if we fail to heed the warning of verse 26!

Also --- the man who forgot purification from former sins, 2Pet1:9; how can one be "purified-from-sins" apart from salvation? Once again such a man is us, if we do not make our calling and ELECTION bebaios-FIRM/STEADFAST. We are called to be DILIGENT to enter the gates of God's kingdom, judging our closeness to Christ by our godliness, self-control, moral excellence, brotherly love and kindness. It's the exact same admonishment as we just read in 2Cor13:5!

Those who belong to Christ will never turn from Him.

Please see what I said above in post 62:

Look at all the "deceive" verses --- we can be deceived away from Jesus by men in 1Jn2:26-28, in 2Jn1:7-9, in Col2:6-8, in 2Pet3:17, in 1Tim6:20-21, and many other places. Deceived away from Jesus by sin in James1:14-16 and Heb3:6-14; and deceived away from Jesus by bad angels in 1Tim4:1 and 2Cor11:3.

How is "deceived-away-from-SALVATION" not in view?

So consider those verses above, when you consider John 6:37-39, 65....I think they tell us quite a bit, related to what Jesus does to us, when He makes us New in Him.

Please read John17:6 with John6:37, 39, 44, and 65. If those who are given to Jesus first belonged to GOD, consider that "belong-to-God" denotes BELIEF. Thus, "given" is "belief" --- if one ceases to believe he ceases to be given.

Also, while you're in John6, please read 67-70. Peter protests his loyalty, "We know You're the Messiah, we'll never leave You."

To which, Jesus holds up Judas: "I chose ALL TWELVE of you* and one of you (is leaving)."

Jesus chose all twelve Disciples and *ordained that all twelve bear fruit that remains (Jn15:16), and Judas is held up to Peter as clear example that "leaving is possible".

Why else did Jesus hold up Judas, to Peter's protest of loyalty?

See also Luke22:
Jesus: "Peter, I prayed your faith not FAIL; and TURNING BACK strengthen your brothers."
Peter: "I will go to prison and even DIE for you."
Jesus: "You'll deny Me three times tonight."

[Gadgeteer]

If I may build on what David Taylor has just posted, I think these verses support exactly what David has said:

Matthew 7
22 - Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 - And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Please note the word "never".

Hi, "Vhayes". You are cordially invited to respond to some of my recent posts, especially #62.

I look forward to your thoughts. :-)

[Raybob]

Hi, "Raybob". Where in Scripture is this? Take for instance the guy in James5:19-20 --- could he fall away from "where he never was", or be led back to "where he'd never been"?

That 'guy' in James 5:19 was living for the spirit of error, not the spirit of truth. That passage tells us if we bring that person into the spirit of truth, he shall be saved, in so many words.

Is a person God's SHEEP, before he believes?

Impossible. I've heard of denominations that teach that if a priest sprinkles 'holy water' on an infant that infant/person will be saved, no matter what. Impossible, I say, according to scriptures. A person needs to realize their sin and repent before they are considered sheep.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 3:23)

..If "sheep" is one who believes, then one who ceases to believe, is no longer sheep.

Yes, IF, but that "IF" is not true. A sheep is not one that simply 'believes'. A sheep is one that follows His voice, not their own. Even the devil believes, but he sure ain't saved now, is he?

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(Jas 2:19-20)

Please consider two things:
1. 1Jn2:19 does not forbid that those who left may have BEEN saved, last year. They were unsaved WHEN they left.

It most certainly does NOT imply that they were ever really 'saved' to begin with.

2. 2Jn1:7-9 very plainly speaks to SAVED people, warning against deceivers, that they not go too far (or "go out from us"!!!) and cease to abide in Jesus' teachings so as to no LONGER have God!

That isn't what the text says at all. 2Jn1:7-8 speaks of us who will receive our reward. Verse 9 speaks of people that don't abide in Jesus.

3. 2Tim2:11-13 presents two positions --- if we died/endure then we shall reign with Him; (but) if we DENY Him and are faithless He will deny US (Matt10:33!) and we will NOT reign with Him, even though HE is faithful in spite of our faithlessness.
Oops, that was THREE. Oh well, Dad always said "there are three kinds of people in this world --- those who can count, and those who cannot."
But to whom are the warnings "NOT to succumb", written?

1Cor10:12-13, James1:14-16, Hebrews3:6-14, and more --- to whom are these written???

To the same people Jesus talked about here:

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(Luk 13:26-28)

[Raybob]

"Harpazo", seize or remove forcibly. Does not say "cannot remove oneself by unbelief" (see cited verses previous post on coming to "unbelief").

I really don't know what you are saying here.

What? It says "Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first" --- and you insist they did NOT fall (were always "fallen"!) and did NOT do deeds commensurate with salvation?

Just doing deeds does not get one into heaven, only faith does. If any that did good deeds fell away, they obviously were simply 'Carnal' Christians, not real Christians to begin with.

Rather a "rewrite", isn't that? (No offense meant.) So Rev3:3 says "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent." --- and you say "Oh they can't REMEMBER 'cause they never really HAD it"?

Really?

Most definitely. Look back two verses to verse 1. This speaks of spiritually dead people, not Christians living by the Holy Spirit, at all.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
(Rev 3:1)

Ahhh, they may not have been saved, in that instance. But you have alotta verses that plainly speak of "movement", falling from salvation.

Look at all the "deceive" verses --- we can be deceived away from Jesus by men in 1Jn2:26-28, in 2Jn1:7-9, in Col2:6-8, in 2Pet3:17, in 1Tim6:20-21, and many other places. Deceived away from Jesus by sin in James1:14-16 and Heb3:6-14; and deceived away from Jesus by bad angels in 1Tim4:1 and 2Cor11:3.

Do you really still embrace the idea that we cannot be deceived to unbelief, away from Jesus?

James 1:14-16 speaks of how sin is developed from lust and tells us not to even go there.

Hebrews 6:6-14 speaks of those following the spirit of error, not the spirit of truth.
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
(Heb 3:10)

I'd go over each of the other passages, but if you would just post the actual text, not just the reference number, then each one is self explanatory so I don't believe I need to bother here. Just read it and believe it.

[Gadgeteer]

That 'guy' in James 5:19 was living for the spirit of error, not the spirit of truth.

No, he wandered away FROM the truth --- the only way he could do that, was that he was IN the truth in the FIRST place. It conveys "movement" --- which the "catch-22" denies.

Catch-22: "If someone is unsaved NOW, then he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place."

And the discussion is whether that "catch-22" is supported by Scripture...

That passage tells us if we bring that person into the spirit of truth, he shall be saved, in so many words.

No, it says "leads him BACK" --- can someone come back to where he never was? That would be talented, wouldn't it?

Impossible. I've heard of denominations that teach that if a priest sprinkles 'holy water' on an infant that infant/person will be saved, no matter what. Impossible, I say, according to scriptures. A person needs to realize their sin and repent before they are considered sheep.

We agree. I was referring of course to "Calvinism", which perceives that a person is a "predestined sheep-of-God" from before the foundation, even for all the time before he's SAVED".

A view that always makes me think --- "huh?"

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 3:23)

The clincher (on which you and I obviously agree) is the Eph2 verse, "you WERE children of Hell even as the REST"...

It's also what 1Cor6:9-11 says; "and such were some of you..."

Yes, IF, but that "IF" is not true. A sheep is not one that simply 'believes'. A sheep is one that follows His voice, not their own. Even the devil believes, but he sure ain't saved now, is he?

Well, generally "belief" has implied the kind of belief that walks in saved/indwelt fellowship with Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(Jas 2:19-20)

Very excellent citation, and you are 100% correct. :-)

It most certainly does NOT imply that they were ever really 'saved' to begin with.

True again.

...but it most certainly does not forbid the possibility, either. They could well have been saved, once.

2Jn1:7-9 lends itself here; "go-on-ahead", or "go-too-far", is identical to "go-out-from-us" from 1Jn2:19.

Furthermore, if 1Jn2:19 really meant to teach that "EVERYONE who leaves WAS NEVER saved", then that is at odds with a few verses later --- 26-28 is very much a warning for the saved, to guard themselves against deceivers; lest "we shrink-in-shame (being found in SIN rather than in CHRIST/SALVATION) when He returns".

It's a warning to stay saved. Nothing else.

That isn't what the text says at all. 2Jn1:7-8 speaks of us who will receive our reward. Verse 9 speaks of people that don't abide in Jesus.

Subject change? What's the basis for seeing a subject change? 2Jn is yet another warning for the saved, to guard themselves against deceivers who absolutely can steal us away from Jesus. There are dozens of such warnings.

3. 2Tim2:11-13 presents two positions --- if we died/endure then we shall reign with Him; (but) if we DENY Him and are faithless He will deny US (Matt10:33!) and we will NOT reign with Him, even though HE is faithful in spite of our faithlessness.
Oops, that was THREE. Oh well, Dad always said "there are three kinds of people in this world --- those who can count, and those who cannot."
But to whom are the warnings "NOT to succumb", written?

1Cor10:12-13, James1:14-16, Hebrews3:6-14, and more --- to whom are these written???

To the same people Jesus talked about here:

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(Luk 13:26-28)

You're comparing apples and oranges; your citation (as well as Matt7:21-23) does work with the perception that "they-were-never-saved". But the others do not. This is attempting to apply the "CATCH 22" (detailed above), that they were never TRULY saved. And those are clearly warnings to STAY saved.

Again, there are dozens of "stay-saved" passages. 1Tim4:16 is one ("As you persevere in His teachings you will save yourselves"...), 2Pet1:5-11 ("Therefore [against the man who FELL FROM SALVATION] be all the more diligent to make your election STEADFAST ...that the gates of God's kingdom BE ...provided to you").

There are bunches of those. See also Rm14:15 & 1Cor8:11, stating we can DESTROY a brother for whom Christ DIED if we're not good examples.

[Gadgeteer]

I really don't know what you are saying here.

Simply that "no ONE can FORCE you away from Jesus" --- nothing prohibiting a person voluntarily walking away because of unbelief. Remember, each of US is tempted when enticed and carried away by our own lust; then lust gives birth to sin, and sin brings DEATH --- do not be deceived beloved brethren. James1:14-16.

Just doing deeds does not get one into heaven, only faith does. If any that did good deeds fell away,

"Remember from where you have FALLEN" --- one who was never saved, has nowhere they can fall FROM.

they obviously were simply 'Carnal' Christians, not real Christians to begin with.

Can we talk about this "obviously" thing? You are applying the Catch-22, and have not documented that in Scripture.

Where is it "obvious" that anyone who falls, was never REALLY saved in the first place?

Most definitely. Look back two verses to verse 1. This speaks of spiritually dead people, not Christians living by the Holy Spirit, at all.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
(Rev 3:1)

He says "remember what you received". Let's talk now about chapter 2:

It says "REMEMBER from where you have FALLEN" --- do you really think he meant "you were never at a place where you could fall FROM, you were always fallen"? How could he have meant that?

James 1:14-16 speaks of how sin is developed from lust and tells us not to even go there.

It's a warning to "beloved brethren", not to be deceived.

Hebrews 6:6-14 speaks of those following the spirit of error, not the spirit of truth.

Yes; but where were they? They were:
1. "Enlightened" (photizo)
2. "Tasters" of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come
.....(using the same word "geuomai" as in Heb2:9, "Jesus TASTED death" --- does mean really participate!
3. Metochos-partners in the Holy Spirit (partners in Christ 3:14, partners in a heavenly calling 3:1)
4. They were repentant, but cannot be restored to repentance because of their willful sin

In no way can these people be cast of "never-were-saved". The participle "and FALLING away" --- one cannot fall from where one never was.

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
(Heb 3:10)

You are lifting one verse ("prooftexting") and ignoring the context. The entire letter of Hebrews is about "don't-forsake-salvation".

2:1-3, take care lest you drift away; we shall not escape if we neglect so great a salvation.
3:6 --- we are Christ's house IF we hold fast
3:8 --- do not harden your hearts as the Israelites did
3:10 --- the Israelites hardened their hearts and refused to follow God
3:12-13 --- take care lest you be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God
3:14 --- we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end
3:18-19 --- the Israelites did not enter their rest (Promised Land) because of disobedience and unbelief
4:11 --- do not FALL and fail to enter GOD'S rest by IMITATING Israel's disobedience and unbelief
4:1 --- do not fall short of God's grace

6:4-6 --- those who WERE saved but now consciously walk in sin, will not want to repent (identical to 10:26-29)
6:11-12 --- you need DILIGENCE so that you not imitate the sluggish, but imitate those who BY patience and faith inherit the promises

10:26-28 --- if WE continue sinning willfully after having received TRUE knowledge, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us
10:29 --- (then we will be) he who WAS sanctified by Jesus' blood, but scorns that blood & tramples Jesus & insults the Spirit

12:7-8 --- we HAVE BECOME partakers/partners (metochos!) in God's discipline (past!), but if we ARE WITHOUT (present!) then we are NOT (no longer!) sons but illegitimate
12:9 SHALL we not rather BE in submission to God's discipline AND LIVE?
12:15 --- do not allow bitterness to cause to to fall short of God's grace
12:25 --- much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)!

13:9 --- Do not be CARRIED AWAY by strange teachings

That was mostly from memory, think it was pretty accurate; please look these up to see if I messed up; but the whole letter is admonishing "continue-in-salvation".

Look at all the "deceive" verses --- we can be deceived away from Jesus by men in 1Jn2:26-28, in 2Jn1:7-9, in Col2:6-8, in 2Pet3:17, in 1Tim6:20-21, and many other places. Deceived away from Jesus by sin in James1:14-16 and Heb3:6-14; and deceived away from Jesus by bad angels in 1Tim4:1 and 2Cor11:3.

I'd go over each of the other passages, but if you would just post the actual text, not just the reference number, then each one is self explanatory so I don't believe I need to bother here. Just read it and believe it.

Please do; each of those very clearly speaks of "deceived-away-from-Jesus-and-salvation".

I look forward to your thoughts, especially on all of Hebrews...

[Colight]

Can you show me that in scripture? The only connection I find with Christ and the law centers around things like this...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

JOHN 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."


The ONLY why this occurs is thru Christ.

John 3
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.


It is Gods rules on salvation is only that one time incident of belief.

It gets no more simple than that.
Christ him self used the example of Moses and the serpents.
They got bit by these serpents, they LOOKED ONCE Upon the staff and the WAS healed.

We look once to Christ and our salvation our spiritual birth is completed.

Gods law for man is to believe on Christ, even on only just his name.
.


Man will be judged by that LAW and decree

John 3
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Therefore if only belief on the name of Christ results in salvation, to say one can lose salvation if the do not abide when all you know is the name would be in conflict with scripture.

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

[Colight]

You are missing the intent of what Paul wrote. Start with Romans chapter 6 --- an eloquent description of "born-again". Then read chapter 7, the war between the NEW nature and the old dead-but-not-always-gone nature. The solution to that war is in chapter 8:

...us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." 8:4

Clearly (Rm8:12-14) we are given a choice, to walk after the flesh (if we do we must die); or by the Spirit putting to death the flesh and we live. So no, we DO NOT have an active sin nature, we who are saved and abide in Jesus (in whom there is no sin! 1Jn3:5!) and who do not walk in flesh/sin-nature.
True; but only when we SUCCUMB to lust-of-the-flesh do we die (James1:14-16!).

Since all men and women die...
I think your doctrine does not fit reality.

What do you think 1Cor10:12-13 means? Paul says (13) that temptation is always before us, but God graciously gives us an escape that we may be able to stand against sin. Verse 12:

Did God places us here to stand against sin or to grow?
Can a unsaved person avoid sins?
we know they can thru the Jews who have followed the law and avoided sin,
Yet they still was unsaved.

Any thing the spiritually dead or a UNBELIEVER can do is in no way a merit to gain... maintain... or complete salvation,..

"Therefore let he who thinks he STAND take heed, lest he FALL."

What do you think Paul meant by "fall"?

It can mean many things, yet you take it to mean God is not able to hold us, which I find it to be a unacceptable doctrine

You dismiss the reality that we have the SAME risk of deception as EVE did.

What is that "same-risk-of-deception", Colight? If one is "deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ", is he still saved?

(Hint --- NO.)

They are..
For you ignore that we have a LIVING God.
I watch the people here serve their statues, and follow rules their statues make ....as they stress to IMPRESS these statues.

To me you are making Christ out to be another cold ..dead.. statue..

The LIVING God holds us and keeps us, we do not have to impress him with how we fight sin or live some self righteous life.
Man thru mans effort or lifestyle will NEVER.. I repeat.. NEVER, impress God.
SO how can that same thing be used to keep salvation.

I find your doctrine lacking on the issue we are SLAVES to a living God and no slaves of the living God escape from him,.


God is not looking at our righteousness on salvation. rather on the righteousness of Christ and his work.

If find your doctrine lacking, for you place salvation DEPENDENT on our righteousness to KEEP it.

Actually, Jesus restored what was lost; he who abides in Jesus has the same fellowship in spirit, that Adam and Eve had in person.

He (she) who abides in that spiritual fellowship, will one day have the IN-PERSON fellowship also, that Adam and Eve had.

2 Way street, the righteousness of Christ is imputed into US, and that will NEVER LEAVE us.

If I were to believe that, then I would believe that no man has a defense against things like pornography. We do; the defense is to draw near to God, and He draws near to us, that we triumph over temptation.

Even a unsaved person can avoid porn..

Any thing a spiritual CORPSE can do is of NO MERIT WITH GOD!

Time to sort out that GODS thinking is NOT mans thinking...

Oh come on!

"Unless you repent, you WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3

If UNREPENTANT sin is still covered, then how will Jesus know the SHEEP, from the GOATS? If it looks like a goat, if it SMELLS like a goat, it's a GOAT! (Unrepentant sinner.)

Since Christ was judged for all sin..

SIN IS NOT THE ISSUE OF ETERNAL JUDGEMENT!,.

We are judged for lacking the righteousness of GOD, which is imputed to believers ONE TIME at salvation.
Sheep are BORN sheep... Goats are BORN goats, they do not get that way if they play in dirty water or not.

We are BORN again.
Therefore we are and will eternally be sheep.,


Your posts are too long.
I really do not have time to go thru line by line..
Summaries of your doctrine work better, or I have to cut sort the posts.

[BroRog]

This forum has seen many threads concerning OSAS vs. NOSAS come and go. As a rule, I do not get involved in those discussions too much. As I was reading the Bible with my wife this morning, however, I came across some interesting verses. Take a look at what Jesus says here in John 6 (NASB):

Verse 37: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Verse 39: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Verse 65: "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I find these verses very interesting, since they seem to support the OSAS position. Verse 47 that everybody who the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him, verse 39 continues to say that Jesus will lose none of those that are given to Him, and verse 65 says that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father grants it to begin with! Sounds pretty straight forward: The Father picks who comes to Jesus and who doesn't, and Jesus doesn't lose any of those who come to Him.

Now, I hope we can avoid a regular OSAS vs. NOSAS bashing contest. Instead, I hope we can discuss the above verses and how they relate to the OSAS/NOSAS positions.

How do you think these verses relate to the OSAS/NOSAS debate?

It would seem from these verses that Jesus believed in the predestination and eternal security of the elect.

[BroRog]

If you look at the original language your interpretation cannot stand. In verse 39, the verb "lose" is an aorist, subjunctive, active. It is in the aorist tense, the subjunctive mood, and the active voice. The subjunctive mood indicates possibility, thus the statement " I should loose nothing" is stated as being a possibility. However, we can also see that in the English, the word should indicates possibility.So either way the language does not support POTS or Election to salvation.

The subjunctive aorist is often used when speaking prophetically. From a human standpoint, the future is contingent and so Greek speakers speak about the future with the subjunctive mood. However, since Jesus is speaking about what God promises to do, THE God who is in total control of the future and can not fail to bring about the future he wants, the subjunctive has the force of the indicative. Whatever God says will happen WILL happen.

[Raybob]

No, he wandered away FROM the truth --- the only way he could do that, was that he was IN the truth in the FIRST place. It conveys "movement" --- which the "catch-22" denies.

Catch-22: "If someone is unsaved NOW, then he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place."

And the discussion is whether that "catch-22" is supported by Scripture... No, it says "leads him BACK" --- can someone come back to where he never was? That would be talented, wouldn't it?...

That all depends on what he was taught in the first place, whether he has saved. Just like me. When I first came to the Lord, I was taught all about the rapture. I was taught that after the rapture, people could still get saved. When temptation came along, I quickly fell into my old habits, thinking in my mind that if I missed the rapture when I was committing a sin, that I'd still have a chance at salvation if I repented after the rapture. Needless to say, I fell, but I never really knew in the first place, how important it was to always follow the spirit of truth in all my affairs. I first came to the Lord in 1982, and called Jesus Lord, but I realize now He wasn't really my Lord, because I was still living for self, not Him.

It was many years later, after much bible study, and many trials and tribulations, that I finally truely gave my heart and soul to the King. That was in 1996, after my last 'lustful' affair. I promised myself and God, the next woman I got with would be for life (as in wife). Looking back, I don't believe I was 'saved' back when I thought I was. I also know that all things didn't seem to be working together for me, until that decision in 1996. I also know that since that decision, all things have been working together for the good, and that most all of my prayers are now answered, sometimes even answered before I get all the words out.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
(Jas 5:19-20)

Anyone that errs from the truth, is obviously NOT following that spirit of truth that is to guide us in all things. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is really a Christian.

[John 8:32]

JOHN 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."


The ONLY why this occurs is thru Christ.

John 3
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.


It is Gods rules on salvation is only that one time incident of belief.

It gets no more simple than that.
Christ him self used the example of Moses and the serpents.
They got bit by these serpents, they LOOKED ONCE Upon the staff and the WAS healed.

We look once to Christ and our salvation our spiritual birth is completed.

Gods law for man is to believe on Christ, even on only just his name.
.


Man will be judged by that LAW and decree

John 3
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Therefore if only belief on the name of Christ results in salvation, to say one can lose salvation if the do not abide when all you know is the name would be in conflict with scripture.

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Hmmm, maybe this should not be in Revelation?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Oh wait, then there is...

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Maybe we better leave that verse in there.

[Colight]

Hmmm, maybe this should not be in Revelation?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Oh wait, then there is...

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Maybe we better leave that verse in there.

Congrats for you actually make no sense as a response to what I posted.
Nor do you even try to address the point I have made.

What does any of that have to do with the line of thought occurring THE BOOK OF JOHN?

Your posts have formulated NO doctrine..
They are only spitting out bible verses...

I have yet to even see a Un-secure salvation apologist spit out any thing of sound doctrine.
Instead it is all wrangling over this verse and that verse.

I have no interest in wrangling over words, or out of context verses..


Why would you think God would be unfaithful in any sense to his flock.
Remember we are his..
He is the GOOD shepherd.
We are not going to get away from him.
The God I know is a LIVING GOD, who is quite able to keep me, no matter how close to the cliffs or briars I stray.