John 6 and (N)OSAS

[Raybob]

"Believe" is in Greek from "pistis", faith; saving-belief is saving-faith, and is not the mere "mental assent" as depicted in James' words. Context determines whether the intent is "unsaved-belief" (Jms2:19) or "saving-belief" (Acts16:31).

Check the Strong's concordance. The Greek word was, "pisteuō". No context needed to know what it means. FAITH.

Look again --- in verse 13, "gennaō" means:
1) of men who fathered children
.....a) to be born
.....b) to be begotten
..........1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
.....a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
.....b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
.....c) of God making Christ his son
.....d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

"Begotten". Born-of-God, begotten-of-God, become-adopted sons. Now you see them too. What I plainly read in the text is that it is not by our will (will of man) but the will of God. Where did you get those glasses? Are they rose colored? The only glasses I have, are the ones that read Scripture clearly. And now you see the same thing --- click on the above link for "gennaō"; it's the Greek from John1:13.

I look forward to your further thoughts with great excitement.

:-)

Born or begotten is not the point of the passage. The point of the passage is that it is by the Lord's will that we receive and believe, it is NOT by our will or "will of man". That's the point.

[DeafPosttrib]

Raybob, both believe and faith are same or synonmous meaning. I realized the salvation throoughout whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation is base by upon the faith. Faith is the fundamental of our salvation. Notice the book of Romans begin with faith, and it ends with faith. Look in Romans 1:5 says: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" And book of Romans end with faith in Romans 16:26 says: "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Salvation throughout in the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation is base by upon our faith. How Abel was saved? By through his faith, because he obeyed God's instruction of offering. Remember, the book of Romans was written to Christians, not unsaved. Faith is beliving and walk in the Spirit throughout our whole life since after we trusted in Christ. If, we stop walk in the Spirit and doing our own ways and disobey God's commandment, then we will not enter into eternal life- Rev. 22:14. Bible explains them so very clear that our salvation is conditional by base on our faith toward God throughout our Christian life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20-Amen!

[Raybob]

...If, we stop walk in the Spirit and doing our own ways and disobey God's commandment, then we will not enter into eternal life- Rev. 22:14. Bible explains them so very clear that our salvation is conditional by base on our faith toward God throughout our Christian life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20-Amen!

Amen, but anyone that stops being led by the Holy Spirit, never were completely "enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift," to begin with. IMO.

[David Taylor]

Raybob, both believe and faith are same or synonmous meaning. I realized the salvation throoughout whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation is base by upon the faith. Faith is the fundamental of our salvation. Notice the book of Romans begin with faith, and it ends with faith. Look in Romans 1:5 says: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" And book of Romans end with faith in Romans 16:26 says: "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Salvation throughout in the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation is base by upon our faith. How Abel was saved? By through his faith, because he obeyed God's instruction of offering. Remember, the book of Romans was written to Christians, not unsaved. Faith is beliving and walk in the Spirit throughout our whole life since after we trusted in Christ. If, we stop walk in the Spirit and doing our own ways and disobey God's commandment, then we will not enter into eternal life- Rev. 22:14. Bible explains them so very clear that our salvation is conditional by base on our faith toward God throughout our Christian life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20-Amen!

I believe someone that the Lord truly changes into a new Creature in Him undergoes a metamorphisis of the soul, and is changed to have the mind of Christ, and to be obedient to Him. While we (those who are truly changed) are still plagued by the curse of creation and thus still sin; we will never turn away from Christ. We will remain obedient to Him til the end, because that is the new nature He has given us; one grounded in Him by the Spirit; not based on the weakness of the fleshly man as before.

A true Christian Phil, will never choose to 'stop walking in the spirit, reject Christ, and turn to following their own disobedient way's against God.

There are many folks, however, who wear the term 'Christian' like a necklace or tshirt, but are not known of the Lord; and are in for a rude awakening; He makes the change in us; as we respond to Him in faith and obedience; if the Lord hasn't made the change, there is no change, and everything is in vain.

[Gadgeteer]

I believe someone that the Lord truly changes into a new Creature in Him undergoes a metamorphisis of the soul, and is changed to have the mind of Christ, and to be obedient to Him.

Hi, David. Do we (the "saved") still sin? 1Cor10:13 says we always have the choice; God is gracious and gives us the "escape", but we have to choose it.

1Cor10:12 says "let he who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall". What does "fall" mean to you?

While we (those who are truly changed) are still plagued by the curse of creation and thus still sin; we will never turn away from Christ.

On what do you base that? What about verses like Heb12:25?
[color=blue]"Much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)."

We will remain obedient to Him 'til the end, because that is the new nature He has given us; one grounded in Him by the Spirit; not based on the weakness of the fleshly man as before.

If we have a "completely new nature" and no longer have to deal with our old sinful natures, then that conflicts what Paul taught in Romans6-8; 6 is "born-again" (the new nature is united with Christ's resurrection). 7 is the war between the new nature and the old dead-but-not-gone nature, and 8 is the SOLUTION to the war -- walk not in the flesh, but by the Spirit put to death the flesh and live.

Have you considered Eph4:22-24? We're told to lay ASIDE the old man (sinful nature!), to put on the new righteous nature, and to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. Does that sound like a "done-deal", or like a "constant admonition"?

What if it's all His power and His righteousness, through our continued faith? Have you considered that Romans1:17 says "the righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith"?

A true Christian Phil, will never choose to 'stop walking in the spirit, reject Christ, and turn to following their own disobedient ways against God.

Based on what Scripture? What about the guy in Heb10:29, who is US if we do not heed the warning of 26? He was sanctified by Jesus' blood, but now scorns that very blood and tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit.

What happened to him? Where was he, and where is he now?

There are many folks, however, who wear the term 'Christian' like a necklace or tshirt, but are not known of the Lord; and are in for a rude awakening;

True --- see Matt7:21-23.

He makes the change in us; as we respond to Him in faith and obedience; if the Lord hasn't made the change, there is no change, and everything is in vain.

There are too many verses that admonish "abide in Him" and "be diligent to be found blameless by Him" to think that our lives are now perfect and sinless and infallible. Paul said it is by OUR endurance that we save ourselves (1Tim4:1) --- exactly what Jesus said in Lk21:19, "by your endurance save your souls".

What if a true saved believer, can be deceived to unbelief? Is that possible? Would he still be saved?

[Gadgeteer]

Check the Strong's concordance. The Greek word was, "pisteuō". No context needed to know what it means. FAITH.

I'm pressed for time, so can't look up the Greek and commentaries. I'm not a Greek scholar, so defer to experts like Robertson. But clearly the demons in James2:19 do not have saving-faith, and that is the purpose of James' rebuke. "Don't have mere mental-assent-belief, but have the kind of belief that causes good works".

Born or begotten is not the point of the passage. The point of the passage is that it is by the Lord's will that we receive and believe, it is NOT by our will or "will of man". That's the point.

You're confusing verse 13, with verse 12; the right to BECOME children of God (which by definition is "begotten-of-God"!) is only granted TO those WHO believe and receive Jesus (the demons do not receive Jesus!).

The BORN-BEGOTTEN is nothing of us but all of Him; but the right to BECOME born/begotten is given to those who believe and receive Him.

Do we agree that "begotten-of-God" is "born-of-God", and "born-again", and "born-from-above", and "become-adopted-sons"?

What does Hebrews12:7-9 mean to you? We have become partakers/partners (past tense!), but if we are now without His discipline (present tense!) we ARE (have become!) not sons but illegitimate.

"SHALL we not much rather BED subject to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, AND LIVE?"

How is this not saying "choose to be in submission to God and receive eternal life"?

[Gadgeteer]

Amen, but anyone that stops being led by the Holy Spirit, never were completely "enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift," to begin with. IMO.

On what basis were those described in Heb6:4-6 ("enlightened", "tasters of the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come", "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit!") never-really-saved-to-begin-with?

In the case of those who WERE enlightened/partners, and FALLING away, it is impossible/powerless/impotent to restore them to repentance BECAUSE OF their willful unbelief.

Where did they fall from? How can one who never was in a place, fall from that place?

[Raybob]

I believe someone that the Lord truly changes into a new Creature in Him undergoes a metamorphisis of the soul, and is changed to have the mind of Christ, and to be obedient to Him. While we (those who are truly changed) are still plagued by the curse of creation and thus still sin; we will never turn away from Christ. We will remain obedient to Him til the end, because that is the new nature He has given us; one grounded in Him by the Spirit; not based on the weakness of the fleshly man as before.

A true Christian Phil, will never choose to 'stop walking in the spirit, reject Christ, and turn to following their own disobedient way's against God.

There are many folks, however, who wear the term 'Christian' like a necklace or tshirt, but are not known of the Lord; and are in for a rude awakening; He makes the change in us; as we respond to Him in faith and obedience; if the Lord hasn't made the change, there is no change, and everything is in vain.

Amen Dave. It's the changed heart's desire in us that gives us that peace in our soul, that the world cannot comprehend. It's that changed heart that reminds us of Him when we are at crossroads and not sure which way to turn. It's that changed heart that changes our reaction when we are rushed, in traffic, someone cuts us off, then jambs on the brakes in front of us. I know before I had a changed heart, incidences like that used to put me into a rage, screaming bad words at the fool in front of me. I know that when something happens like that to me now, I'll say a little prayer for that fool in front of me, something like, "Dear God, help that fool not to be such a jerk". Doing that helps me to remain calm, not like cussing at my windshield and having my heartbeat raised 300. That's the peace we are told about here.:

Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Once anyone has tasted those powers to keep us in His promises, it's impossible to turn away, ever.

[Raybob]

Hi, David. Do we (the "saved") still sin? 1Cor10:13 says we always have the choice; God is gracious and gives us the "escape", but we have to choose it. ...

Amen. It's the ones that choose it are the ones that, "know my voice and follow me." If any choose not to follow Him, down in their heart, not just in words, they clearly never were sheep yet, nor may never be, unless there comes a change in their heart's desire. When the heart is changed, they follow the Lord.

A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth: he will guide his affairs with discretion. Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance. He shall not be afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the LORD. His heart is established, he shall not be afraid, until he see his desire upon his enemies. He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.
(Psa 112:5-9)

[Raybob]

On what basis were those described in Heb6:4-6 ("enlightened", "tasters of the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come", "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit!") never-really-saved-to-begin-with?

In the case of those who WERE enlightened/partners, and FALLING away, it is impossible/powerless/impotent to restore them to repentance BECAUSE OF their willful unbelief.

Where did they fall from? How can one who never was in a place, fall from that place?

They fell from hearing the word, but on rocky soil, not 'good soil'.

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(Luk 8:13)

[David Taylor]

I believe someone that the Lord truly changes into a new Creature in Him undergoes a metamorphisis of the soul, and is changed to have the mind of Christ, and to be obedient to Him.

Hi, David. Do we (the "saved") still sin?

Hey, did you only read my first sentence, and skip over my second sentence?

Here ya go, again....

I believe someone that the Lord truly changes into a new Creature in Him undergoes a metamorphisis of the soul, and is changed to have the mind of Christ, and to be obedient to Him. While we (those who are truly changed) are still plagued by the curse of creation and thus still sin; we will never turn away from Christ.

1Cor10:13 says we always have the choice; God is gracious and gives us the "escape", but we have to choose it.

And once we have chosen Christ, and Christ has remade us a new creature in Him, the old is passed away, behold all things become new; and we won't ever want to leave Him.

1Cor10:12 says "let he who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall". What does "fall" mean to you?

sin, ....of which we all do. That is far different than us turing away and rejecting Christ forever.

On what do you base that? What about verses like Heb12:25?
[color=blue]"Much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)." If we have a "completely new nature" and no longer have to deal with our old sinful natures, then that conflicts what Paul taught in Romans6-8; 6 is "born-again" (the new nature is united with Christ's resurrection). 7 is the war between the new nature and the old dead-but-not-gone nature, and 8 is the SOLUTION to the war -- walk not in the flesh, but by the Spirit put to death the flesh and live.

You seem to think that once Christ changes us to a new creature in Him, we never will sin again; or maybe you think I think that. I don't. We do sin; because creation itself is under the curse of sin presently. My point, is that a true Christian, while still plagued by the curse of sin, will never turn away from, reject, and abandon Christ.

Quite a bit different than us simply sinning.

True --- see Matt7:21-23. There are too many verses that admonish "abide in Him" and "be diligent to be found blameless by Him" to think that our lives are now perfect and sinless and infallible. Paul said it is by OUR endurance that we save ourselves (1Tim4:1) --- exactly what Jesus said in Lk21:19, "by your endurance save your souls".

What if a true saved believer, can be deceived to unbelief? Is that possible? Would he still be saved?

I agree we abide in Christ, remain faithful in Him, etc.....All I am saying, is that a true Christian that Christ has changed, will not ever turn from and reject Christ.

Our endurance doesn't save us, Christ saved us. I can't work my way into winning the race; only Christ provides the work. I remain obedient to Him because He changed me, and I will never reject Him; because He changed me.

[Rookie78]

Guys,

Ok just talking about this subject from a logistics standpoint.....Correct me if I'm wrong (i'm sure someone will, lol), A christian is basically someone who has made a covenant with God. That person receives Jesus as Lord and Savior. There is no just receiving the Savior part without the Lord part, the two go hand in hand. So if this is established, my part of the covenant is to serve the Lord (or master, what you may call it) and God's part is to forgive my sins. I am defining "Walking in the Spirit" as serving the Lord, which I believe to be the case. At the end of my life, if I am still in the covenant, my body will be Transformed and resurrected into Life eternal.
While in this life, i'm kinda transformed although not all the way since it is just my mind that is now with knowledge of who Christ is and what He wants will still retaining free will of course.

Perhaps we should define covenant as well. I've always heard that it is an agreement between two or more, there maybe more to it, but when the agreement is compromised, the covenant is broken.

Here is what I don't get with this debate....If I (if i have free will) chose to break the covenant, thats my choice, and God is not obligated to save me in the end. If I'm no longer saved, does that mean I never made a covenant with God?!? Of course not, I just choose to not follow anymore. We all still have fleshly desires called temptation. No one is temptation free.

[David Taylor]

I believe the Lord changes us long before we die; while we are living; we are changed by Him to serve and follow Him.

Once He changes us, I don't believe our nature would ever leave Him. To the 'true Christian', there would never be a rejection of the new covenant shed in His blood; which took our sins away. For it washed away all sins, past, present, and future; and we will never leave or reject Him.

Anyone who He hasn't changed, who hasn't been born again of His Spirit; who hasn't been raised to newness of life; can still reject Him.

Alot of people kinda, sorta, a littlebit play at following God and Christ when it's convenient; or for show; but have never been changed by Him because their hearts are not sincere and He has not changed them.

The covenant for those truly in Christ is everlasting; and cannot be broken. Otherwise, it would be a temporary covenant only applicable to those who are good enough to keep it perfectly; and so far, all of us would fail if it were up to us to have to keep a perfect sinless covenant....but God doing it for us, and then remaking us in Him, gives us power from on high to never reject Him and abandon His covenant.

[DeafPosttrib]

Reformers and baptists say, many true Christians will never leave or reject Christ. Reformed's 5th Point-'Perservance of the Saints' teaches, God has the power to perserve true Christians in the security of salvation. And true Christians shall never fall away.

My question is, why Jesus says, there are few who enter into the narrow road and make it?-Matt. 7:13-14. And why, Jesus says, many were called, but few chosen- Matt. 22:14. Where are the rest of many go? I believe Matt. 7:14 points out that, FEW Christians did make it, most Christians will not make it. Jesus knows many true Christians do sin, and can fall away. That why, there are many warnings throughout whole New Testament, even, in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[David Taylor]

Reformers and baptists say, many true Christians will never leave or reject Christ. Reformed's 5th Point-'Perservance of the Saints' teaches, God has the power to perserve true Christians in the security of salvation. And true Christians shall never fall away.

My question is, why Jesus says, there are few who enter into the narrow road and make it?-Matt. 7:13-14. And why, Jesus says, many were called, but few chosen- Matt. 22:14. Where are the rest of many go? I believe Matt. 7:14 points out that, FEW Christians did make it, most Christians will not make it. Jesus knows many true Christians do sin, and can fall away. That why, there are many warnings throughout whole New Testament, even, in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I believe Matthew 7's picture of the few who take the narrow road and find eternal life; verses the large majority who take the broad path that leadeth to destruction is not a picture of Christians at all; rather, it is a picture of all humankind.

True Christians alone follow the narrow path to eternal life.
All who do not belong to Jesus find the broad path of destruction.

The gospel goes out to many; yet few heed it and are saved.

IMO the Revelation warnings are repent to become faithful true Christians; not that true faithful Christians will fall away.

Warnings are for those who don't belong to Christ, but are the mission field of who needs to turn to Christ and be changed by Him to be a new creature in Him.

For true believers, there is peace and consolation and blessed assurance in the Lord; because true Christians will never reject Christ or walk away from Him.