John 6 and (N)OSAS

[DeafPosttrib]

David Taylor,

I believe Matthew 7's picture of the few who take the narrow road and find eternal life; verses the large majority who take the broad path that leadeth to destruction is not a picture of Christians at all; rather, it is a picture of all humankind.

True, you are correct. But, we need to read throughout whole chapter 7 as context. This is a matter of salvation. Jesus spoken of these are matter of salvation. These are conditional and warning.

Matt. 7:15-20 -Jesus told disciples, watch out for the false prophets. Matt. 15:14-Jesus said, leave them alone, let blind leaders lead blind, both going into the ditch. This speaks of false religions and false doctrines. 'Blind' of Matt. 15:14 clearly refer to unsaved, we know. But, in Matt. 24:24 warns us, there will be arise of false christs and false prophets shall show great signs, and miracles, would deceive the very elect, it doesn't say, 'impossible', it clearly say, possible. We have see so many false religions, false doctrines arise everywhere today. We need to set our own defend of our beliefs and our beliefs must rooted deeper within the doctrine of Christ.

Matt. 7:21-23- Christ warns, in the judgment day, many people, include Christians will be shocked. Many people who perform their good works. I have seen so many good people attend religions, and do their wonderful works. Even, late Mother Theresa(Catholic nun), done many good works toward people. Many people do expect that they receive eternal life by doing good works for God or Jesus. But, most will be shock and will end up in everlasting fire. There are two reasons why most people will be shock in the judgment day: 1. Many did not ask Jesus to come in the heart to be saved at the first place. 2. Many Christians already did asked Jesus comes in their heart and saved. They did do wonderful works serve for Christ. But, many are hypocrites. They serve two masters at same time-serve God, and serve sin same time. That why, Christ will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."-Matt. 7:23. Many Christians who believe in OSAS, thought they are already saved at once, because Christ already paid all sins-past, present, and future too. They have nothing to worry about their currently and future sins, long as their sins are all paid off. They have nothing to worry about their salvation long as they serve God, while sinning same time, they still think they are already saved at once. That why, many Christians will be shock in the judgment day, will be end up in the lake of fire.

Matt. 7:24-27- Jesus spoken of two foundations. Verse 24-25 tell us, these who hear(obey) these things as what Christ commands, and to do these things, to built their foundation upon the rock, so, it will not collapse down, because of obedience. Verse 26-27- These who did hear His commandments, but not obey Him, and not do these things, they have no foundation, therefore, their foundation collapse, because of not obedience.

Many Christians did hear God's word, but not do these things, did not obey His commandments-John 14:15. I fear that, most Christians will end up in everlasting fire, because they did not obey Christ.

True Christians alone follow the narrow path to eternal life. All who do not belong to Jesus find the broad path of destruction.

All who do not belong to Jesus find the broad path of destruction? Often I hear common argument from securists say, 'they are not saved in the first place.' Not true. Hold on this for moment.

The gospel goes out to many; yet heed it and are saved.

Agree.

IMO the Revelation warnings are repent to become faithful true Christians; not that true Christians will fall away

Not true. Hold on this for moment.

Warning are for those who don't belong to Christ, (emphasis mine) but are the mission field of who needs to turn to Christ and be changed by Him to be a new creature in Him.

I disagree. There are many warnings throughout in book of Hebrews, these were written to Christians, not unbelievers. Heb. 2:3 tells us, how can we escape, if we neglect so great salvation at the first began. This is clearly apply to us as Christians.

There are clear warning from Christ throughout Revelation chapter 2 and 3 are direct to us as Christians from first advent to second advent.Hold on this for moment.

For true believers, there is peace and consolation and blessed assurance in the Lord; because true Christians will never reject Christ or walk away from Him.

Never reject Christ or never walk away from Him?

Depend on individual of Christians.

In Rev. 2:4 says, "Neverthless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE." It proves that many true Christians can leave from their first love. "First love" speaks of the beginning salvation, as did accepted Christ saved in the first place, did have relation with Christ, but, they turn away from Christ, in their own ways, by disobedience. Yes, many true Christians indeed walk away from Christ. Notice Rev. 2:5 says, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick OUT OF HIS PLACE, except thou repent."

Wow. Very serious warning from Christ's words. He warns us, if we do not repent of sins, and get right with the Lord again, by the time, we die or Lord comes, He will remove us out of his kingdom. That means, we might be end up in the evelasting fire. Rev. 2:4-5 is not direct to unsaved or unbelievers, it apply to us as Christians. There are so many warnings throughout whole Revelation chapter 2 and 3. I better choose 2 verses, want to show you,

Rev. 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Christ warns us, if we fail to overcome the world, flesh in our Christian life, by the time we die or Lord comes, our names would be removed from the book of life and we might be end up in the everlasting fire. Wow. We must listen Christ's words.

Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Christ warns us, if we fail to overcome them, we shall not receive white raiment, and our names would be delete out of the book of life, and He would deny us before Father and the angels in the judgment day, and we might be end up in the lake of fire. Wow. we must listen what Christ saying to us, fear and obey His words-John 14:15.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[BroRog]

Reformers and baptists say, many true Christians will never leave or reject Christ. Reformed's 5th Point-'Perservance of the Saints' teaches, God has the power to perserve true Christians in the security of salvation. And true Christians shall never fall away.

Yes, this is clearly taught in scripture. As Paul says in Romans 5, the testing of our faith leads to perseverance and perseverance hope.

My question is, why Jesus says, there are few who enter into the narrow road and make it?-Matt. 7:13-14.

Jesus says this because he really means that there will be few who enter. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian has taken the narrow way.

And why, Jesus says, many were called, but few chosen- Matt. 22:14.

To be "called" in this context is to hear the general call of the gospel message, the call that goes out to all the world for all to hear. Jesus is saying, just because a person hears the call doesn't mean he or she is saved.

Where are the rest of many go?

They take the wide path.

I believe Matt. 7:14 points out that, FEW Christians did make it, most Christians will not make it. Jesus knows many true Christians do sin, and can fall away. That why, there are many warnings throughout whole New Testament, even, in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 too.

Yes, there are many who will fall away. But Jesus is making a distinction between the called and the chosen. The "called" might fall away, but not the "chosen."

[Gadgeteer]

Amen Dave. It's the changed heart's desire in us that gives us that peace in our soul, that the world cannot comprehend. It's that changed heart that reminds us of Him when we are at crossroads and not sure which way to turn. It's that changed heart that changes our reaction when we are rushed, in traffic, someone cuts us off, then jambs on the brakes in front of us. I know before I had a changed heart, incidences like that used to put me into a rage, screaming bad words at the fool in front of me. I know that when something happens like that to me now, I'll say a little prayer for that fool in front of me, something like, "Dear God, help that fool not to be such a jerk". Doing that helps me to remain calm, not like cussing at my windshield and having my heartbeat raised 300. That's the peace we are told about here.:

Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Once anyone has tasted those powers to keep us in His promises, it's impossible to turn away, ever.

Raybob, what do you do with all the serious warnings against apostasy? In Col2:6-8, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, 2Pet3:17 and many other places, men can deceive us away from Jesus. In James1:14-16 and Heb3:6-14, sin deceives us away from Jesus. In 1Tim4:1 and 2Cor11:3, bad-angels can. Are all these warnings "empty" (or "mere effective means by which God KEEPS us saved")?

Do we (the "saved") still sin? 1Cor10:13 says we always have the choice; God is gracious and gives us the "escape", but we have to choose it. ...

Amen. It's the ones that choose it are the ones that, "know my voice and follow me."

No, not at all; Scripture is replete with statements that "if WE continue in sin" (or follow after the flesh) "WE MUST DIE". We --- the writer including himself. Rom8:12-14, Heb10:26-29, etcetera.

If any choose not to follow Him, down in their heart, not just in words, they clearly never were sheep...

Is that statement Scriptural? Please read Acts20:28-30. It speaks of "the flock, the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." Is this speaking of saved sheep? Can't be anything else.

But savage wolves will come in and not spare the flock --- what does that mean? Is the flock, at risk? What else can it mean?

yet, nor may never be, unless there comes a change in their heart's desire. When the heart is changed, they follow the Lord.

But a heart can become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God. Isn't Hebrews 3 (and dozens like it) a real warning?

A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth: he will guide his affairs with discretion. Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance. He shall not be afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the LORD. His heart is established, he shall not be afraid, until he see his desire upon his enemies. He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.
(Psa 112:5-9)

I can cite Psalm 37:5 ("commit your way to the Lord, trust also in Him and He will do it"). I can give you the rest of Scripture --- like 1Tim4:1:

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these things; as you do you will save yourselves..."

I can give you dozens of verses like these --- do you still perceive that eternal life is "guaranteed"?

What about 2Pet1:5-11? Against the man who fell from salvation (verse 9!) we are warned to make our CALLING and ELECTION/SALVATION firm/steadfast ...that the gates of God's kingdom BE ...provided to us.

Exactly what was Peter trying to teach?

I think your position can overlook these verses, but cannot accommodate them.

On what basis were those described in Heb6:4-6 ("enlightened", "tasters of the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come", "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit!") never-really-saved-to-begin-with?

In the case of those who WERE enlightened/partners, and FALLING away, it is impossible/powerless/impotent to restore them to repentance BECAUSE OF their willful unbelief.

Where did they fall from? How can one who never was in a place, fall from that place?

They fell from hearing the word, but on rocky soil, not 'good soil'.

You did not answer the question --- you are 100% contending that "fall-away does NOT REALLY mean fall-away, they were never WHERE they could fall FROM."

Do you recognize the problem with reading Scripture and instead of taking it at face-value, stamping it with "not-really"?

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

They fall BECAUSE they are bad soil? No!

Hebrews6:7-8 says ONE tilled soil (expected to yield good fruit --- please read Isaiah5:1-5 (and 65:12). One tilled soil can produce EITHER good fruit (that's the reason it was tilled!), or it can produce thorns and thistles. So we warned to BE "good soil that holds fast and bears fruit with perseverance" like those in Luke8:15, and to NOT be "rocky/bad soil that falls to temptation/affliction/persecution" like those in Luke8:13 (and Mk4:17).

It's important to understand what Jesus meant in the parable of the soils; in no way does the SOIL-TYPE determine the PERSEVERANCE (which would make God responsible for SIN for most men!!!). The soil label is the consequence of their actions --- if they persevere they're called "good soil", but if they fall then they're called "rocky/shallow/bad soil". It's the only way to fit Heb6:7-8.

While we're in Hebrews 6, please consider this:

"We desire that each one of you show the same diligence, so as to realize full assurance of hope until the end, that you not be sluggish but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." Heb6:11-12

Tell me how that is NOT asserting the exact same thing as we just read in 1Tim4:16, in 2Pet1:5-11 (which mirrors 2Cor13:5), and so many other passages (Luke21:19)? How is "inherit-the-promises" not speaking of eternal life? How is it not saying "be diligent to abide in Christ and in salvation"?


You have embraced a doctrine that asserts "A truly saved person will have a changed heart that CANNOT become unsaved". You and I have just read a bunch of verses that assert the opposite. Do you acknowledge the problem? If one does not recognize the real danger of becoming deceived, he or she is at much greater risk of falling.

We can sin; sin leads to death --- eternal death. Jesus even spoke of PETER falling away (Luke22:31-34). The word "fall" in 1Cor10:12 means the same thing as in Heb4:11, and many other places; fall eternally. 2Cor13:5 says we can be found to NOT be in Christ and be DISQUALIFIED. Have you considered "adokimos-disqualified", and the connected passage 1Cor9:25-27? We are admonished to race so as to WIN the IMMORTAL CROWN, and even PAUL could be disqualified!

Thank you for your consideration, and for looking up these verses to make sure I'm not erring.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, David. Do we (the "saved") still sin?

Hey, did you only read my first sentence, and skip over my second sentence?

No. You and I agree that we still sin --- see 1Jn1:8. But how does that align with 1Jn3:9, which says "one who is born of God CANNOT sin"?

There's only one answer -- "born-of-God", is forfeitable.

ALL sin is turning away from God. What matters WHEN we sin, is what we do next --- do we throw ourselves on His mercy, repenting of our transgression? 1Jn1;9 assures us He forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. But if we begin to sin again and again, then we are subject to Heb10:26-29; we are no longer saved.

Here ya go, again....

I believe someone that the Lord truly changes into a new Creature in Him undergoes a metamorphisis of the soul, and is changed to have the mind of Christ, and to be obedient to Him. While we (those who are truly changed) are still plagued by the curse of creation and thus still sin; we will never turn away from Christ.

And once we have chosen Christ, and Christ has remade us a new creature in Him, the old is passed away, behold all things become new; and we won't ever want to leave Him.

Let's discuss this idea of "the old has passed COMPLETELY away, we are FOREVER new creatures". If that was true, then we'd be sinless, wouldn't we?

Please consider:

"Lay aside the old man, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit; be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." Eph4:22-24.

What is Paul teaching? That we are FULLY FOREVER new godly creatures? Or is he advocating a CONTINUOUS "passing-away-of-the-old", and admonishing us to continuously "be regenerated and put on the new man"? Keep in mind that's in the same context as 4:17ff, which warns US not to "walk as the heathens do, darkened in understanding, excluded from the life of God..."

What do you see in that --- unchangeable-godly-newness? Or a rebuke to walk in Christ SO THAT we continue to be new creations?

Can you fit what we've just studied, to what you said about "we will never turn away from Christ"?

1Cor10:12 says "let he who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall". What does "fall" mean to you?

sin, ....of which we all do. That is far different than us turning away and rejecting Christ forever.

Please connect 1Cor10:12-13, with Heb10:26-29; if we continue in sin, then Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us. Read Heb12:7-9 and explain how that is NOT teaching the real possibility of "ceasing-to-be-born-again". Add in 12:25:

"Much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)."

Do you still perceive that "turning-away" is not possible?

You seem to think that once Christ changes us to a new creature in Him, we never will sin again; or maybe you think I think that. I don't. We do sin; because creation itself is under the curse of sin presently. My point, is that a true Christian, while still plagued by the curse of sin, will never turn away from, reject, and abandon Christ.

"Abandonment-of-Christ" is nothing more than "continuing-in-sin". Please read Rom11:18-23 and tell why that is NOT teaching that WE can be cut off from Jesus-the-vine.

Quite a bit different than us simply sinning.

Have you considered 2Tim2:11-13? Two positions are asserted --- "died/endure", which causes us to reign with Christ; then, "denying-Christ and being FAITHLESS", which causes Jesus to deny us before God (Matt10:33!), and we will NOT reign with Him even though His faithfulness continues.

No one can be "faithlessly-saved"; and faithlessness is very much in view in 2Tim2:11-13.

I agree we abide in Christ, remain faithful in Him, etc.....All I am saying, is that a true Christian that Christ has changed, will not ever turn from and reject Christ.

I'm going to speak quite bluntly, but with love and kindness. As long as your heart rests in God, this disagreement between us does not matter; we shall be together with Christ when He returns. My concern and motivation for posting here is that I perceive we CAN be deceived away from Jesus. So I'm not out to prove anything "right", but to cause others to think --- that, in their time of temptation/affliction/persecution, something we have discussed will come to their minds and strengthen them.

If that happens, then I will have WON. And WHAT I will have won, is YOU, as brothers and sisters, forever.

You see, if I get "stuck" with each of you as brothers and sisters, together with Christ, FOREVER --- that would be grand, and a great joy! I pray others feel the same about me.

(Understand I was teasing; I will not get STUCK with anyone, I'll get BLESSED with all of you...)

Our endurance doesn't save us, Christ saved us.

Our endurance saves us in 1Tim4:16. In 1Pet1:9. In Luke21:19. And in many other places.

I can't work my way into winning the race; only Christ provides the work.

While that is true (Jn6:29), the work of "believing" is God's work that we CHOOSE to work. Jn6:25-28!

I remain obedient to Him because He changed me, and I will never reject Him; because He changed me.

I look forward to your thoughts on the verses we've discussed, especially ones like 2Pet1:5-11, 2Cor13:5, and all the "fall-away-from-Jesus" verses. Do you remember them?

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Guys,

Ok just talking about this subject from a logistics standpoint.....Correct me if I'm wrong (i'm sure someone will, lol), A christian is basically someone who has made a covenant with God. That person receives Jesus as Lord and Savior. There is no just receiving the Savior part without the Lord part, the two go hand in hand. So if this is established, my part of the covenant is to serve the Lord (or master, what you may call it) and God's part is to forgive my sins. I am defining "Walking in the Spirit" as serving the Lord, which I believe to be the case. At the end of my life, if I am still in the covenant, my body will be Transformed and resurrected into Life eternal.
While in this life, i'm kinda transformed although not all the way since it is just my mind that is now with knowledge of who Christ is and what He wants will still retaining free will of course.

Perhaps we should define covenant as well. I've always heard that it is an agreement between two or more, there maybe more to it, but when the agreement is compromised, the covenant is broken.

You're not-wrong. :-D

The basis of our "covenant", is LOVE --- God is love, he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. And love does not demand its own way --- love takes two people embodying a COMMITMENT, whether it's "Creator/creature", or "man/wife". I love what James says in 4:6-10.

Here is what I don't get with this debate....If I (if i have free will) chose to break the covenant, that's my choice, and God is not obligated to save me in the end. If I'm no longer saved, does that mean I never made a covenant with God?!? Of course not, I just choose to not follow anymore. We all still have fleshly desires called temptation. No one is temptation free.

There are three views of "Once Saved Always Saved".

1. Antinomianism/Gnosticism (backslidden-but-saved); one is saved in SPIRIT even if the flesh walks in sin/drunkenness/fornication/robbery/murder/etcetera.

2. "Predestined-Election" (Calvinism, Limited Atonement, Reformed Theology, etc.) --- men are sovereignly chosen for salvation OR chosen for sinfulness and condemnation, by God, before time; at some point in time God BORNS-one-again, working monergistic (unilateral) regeneration SO THAT he then IRRESISTIBLY believes (and therefore GOD preserves the person IN his faith). Generally "faith" is a gift FROM God, and does not flow from men, but flows from God TO men. "Obedience" and "repentance" are viewed as gifts FROM God, rather than something God receives FROM us.

3. "Eternal Security" --- views salvation as available to ALL ("unlimited atonement"), but once IN, either a heart is too changed TO disbelieve, or (and?) God dynamically interferes to PREVENT disbelief and apostasy (sometimes ending a person's physical life so that he remains saved).


By establishing that "faith to salvation" is something we consciously decide, and not just once but daily, it is indeed our own faith and perseverance that saves us, as Paul said in 1Tim4:16, and Peter in 1:1:9. Some think this is "works-salvation"; not at all -- it is all HIS power, but our faith. Suppose I give you a birthday present; I choose the wood, cut it and shape it, sand it glass-smooth, stain it a rich cherry color, and seven coats of varnish; it fairly GLOWS with the care I took in making your present. I hand it to you --- and you --- what?

Do you receive it? Can you refuse it? Can you receive it and later throw it away? It's the same with Jesus' incredible gift of grace; we can receive it, we can hold it and Him close to our hearts, or we can throw it away (see Heb10:35, which is warning us not to throw Jesus away!). Zero of "works-salvation", or of "Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism", but all of salvation by grace (God's!) through faith (ours!).

Noted Greek authority A.T.Robertson (citing Lightfoot) comments on Romans1:17:
"The righteousness of God is revealed from FAITH-THE-START, to FAITH-THE-GOAL; the righteous shall live BY faith."

From beginning faith, to ending faith. It is important how our faith begins; and it is just as important how it ENDS. Consider Galatians --- the audience BEGAN in the Spirit, but were ending in the flesh (3:3). They became "severed from Christ and fallen from grace"! 5:4!!!

A very excellent post, Rookie; I think you'll find we are in agreement, and hopefully you've gained Scripture citations that support.

:-)

[Colight]

Matt. 7:21-23- Christ warns, in the judgment day, many people, include Christians will be shocked. Many people who perform their good works. I have seen so many good people attend religions, and do their wonderful works. Even, late Mother Theresa(Catholic nun), done many good works toward people. Many people do expect that they receive eternal life by doing good works for God or Jesus. But, most will be shock and will end up in everlasting fire. There are two reasons why most people will be shock in the judgment day: 1. Many did not ask Jesus to come in the heart to be saved at the first place. 2. Many Christians already did asked Jesus comes in their heart and saved. They did do wonderful works serve for Christ. But, many are hypocrites. They serve two masters at same time-serve God, and serve sin same time. That why, Christ will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."-Matt. 7:23. Many Christians who believe in OSAS, thought they are already saved at once, because Christ already paid all sins-past, present, and future too. They have nothing to worry about their currently and future sins, long as their sins are all paid off. They have nothing to worry about their salvation long as they serve God, while sinning same time, they still think they are already saved at once. That why, many Christians will be shock in the judgment day, will be end up in the lake of fire.

Then what sins did Christ die for?
Also when it is stated Christ takes away the sin of the world...
for man to be eternally judged for any sin...
would make the whole foundation of Christ to be a LIE.

John 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
1 john 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

This to me would make eternal judgement for sin a doctrinal impossibility.
Therefore I must reject your doctrine.

Matt. 7:24-27- Jesus spoken of two foundations. Verse 24-25 tell us, these who hear(obey) these things as what Christ commands, and to do these things, to built their foundation upon the rock, so, it will not collapse down, because of obedience. Verse 26-27- These who did hear His commandments, but not obey Him, and not do these things, they have no foundation, therefore, their foundation collapse, because of not obedience.

Many Christians did hear God's word, but not do these things, did not obey His commandments-John 14:15. I fear that, most Christians will end up in everlasting fire, because they did not obey Christ.

A Christian will never face the lake of Fire.
This is a impossibility... you are confusing the unbeliever, who lacks a foundation, with a believer who has a foundation of Christ.

I disagree. There are many warnings throughout in book of Hebrews, these were written to Christians, not unbelievers. Heb. 2:3 tells us, how can we escape, if we neglect so great salvation at the first began. This is clearly apply to us as Christians.

These warnings are about spiritual growth..
It is encouragement to run the race before us, not to scare us into shivering wreak about keeping what is secure.
The Fact we can even run the spiritual race.. is establishment of our salvation.
Even when we fall we are still on the track and can at any time get back up and continue,,,,,

[Colight]

Just a thought for you insecure-salvation types...

If we can not trust Christ to KEEP OUR SALVATION THEN WHAT USE IS CHRIST!!???!!!
Why even bother trusting him?

If Christ can Not keep me, then It is UP to me??

THAT IS NOT SALVATION!!!!!!
Salvation is a birth of GOD... Not the will of MAN. ( john 1:13)
To state we have to keep our salvation thru some act.. makes it a will of man..


I will state this plainly..
( sorry Mods but Truth Is truth.. and we should love the truth and not shrink from it)


Salvation thru works is NOT salvation.
Salvation thru NOT SINNING is not salvation.
So If salvation is not THRU WORKS or NOT SINNING.. then why would SALVATION BE kept thru works and NOT SINNING??
If those are not good enough to GAIN salvation then FOR SURE it is not good enough to KEEP salvation...

Biblically it is ARROGANCE to think we have a hand in our own salvation.
The sin of arrogance is not a method for salvation.
The sin of arrogance is not a method to KEEP salvation.

Insecure salvation is a direct attack on Christ and the work he has done.

Even those who call On the Name of Christ are saved, no works or merit.. no mention of the side effect that you have to keep it.

John 1

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

To attack the security of Christ the LIVING GOD is to cause fellow believers to stumble and shrink back.
Insecure salvation has no doctrinal merit and is in Direct opposition with the DIVINE ATTRIBUTE of the Faithfulness of God.
You are ADDING THE WILL OF MAN TO SALVATION!!!

This is a DIRECT attack on the work of Christ....


I watch how you defend your position.. and it is this verse and that verse like a drunk stumbling along.
But I have yet to see any doctrinal Lay out of the insecure salvation position.
I have asked for it..how does insecure salvation mesh with the other doctrines of God?
It DOES NOT!

It is just argument over this out of context passage and that out of context passage, stated as if it is some law.
There is no doctrine behind it... only legalism.

Why Else would a believer want to cause fellow believers to lose the confidence they have in Christ and shrink back..
Unless it was to shrink into some sort of LEGALISM????
Is not the very essence of the insecure salvation position?
Do not sin.. and thru that you can keep salvation. ( aka Legalism.)

( sorry Mods, but this is How I see it..Even Christ stated behind white wash of the tombs, are rotting corpses.)

Paul Struck out at Legalism in the MOST violent of words.
Paul was angry with these baby Christians because they were trying to live out the Christian life by keeping the law!

Gal 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

He called it a perversion of the gospel of Christ.. and that those who preach such things to be accursed.

( Again Mods.. these are Paul's words.. and Context does fit.)
( Mods.. and if this legalism would annoy Paul while he was in the spirit.. then it certainly should annoy other spirit filled believers )

Paul also states...: “After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” (Galatians 3:3)

For me.... I trust Christ even though I shall fail in many areas, I know Christ is secure,.
For you insecure salvation believers....
I dont care about .. 'what about this verse or that verse'.... lets see the Doctrine.

[Gadgeteer]

Then what sins did Christ die for?

May I? Jesus died for only sins that are repented from.

Also when it is stated Christ takes away the sin of the world...
for man to be eternally judged for any sin...
would make the whole foundation of Christ to be a LIE.

Not at all. Jesus took away the sin of the world provisionally --- there is no forgiveness of sins without repentance. It is as 1Tim4:10 says, God is the Savior of the world (provision), specially/above-all believers (fulfillment). 1Jn2:2 agrees; He is the propitiation for our sins (believers), and not just ours but also the whole world (provision).

John 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Yet this must also fit Lk13:3 --- Jesus: "Unless you repent, you will perish."

1 john 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

God loved the WORLD (provision) that He sent the Son that whosoever believes (fulfillment) should not perish but have eternal life."

This to me would make eternal judgment for sin a doctrinal impossibility.

"Sin" does not condemn; unbelief condemns. (Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10). But sin exposes a heart that was NOT saved, which dwelt in sin rather than in Christ.

Therefore I must reject your doctrine.

With respect, you reject Scripture.

A Christian will never face the lake of Fire.

True --- a Christian never will. [b]But a Christian who comes to unbelief and turns to sin, will face "the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries". Heb10:26-29!

This is a impossibility... you are confusing the unbeliever, who lacks a foundation, with a believer who has a foundation of Christ.

You are disregarding Scriptures that speak of a believer coming to UNBELIEF.

As Paul said in Rom11:18-23, "Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (broken off for unbelief), neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God --- to you, kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again..."

I disagree. There are many warnings throughout in book of Hebrews, these were written to Christians, not unbelievers. Heb. 2:3 tells us, how can we escape, if we neglect so great salvation at the first began. This is clearly apply to us as Christians.

These warnings are about spiritual growth..

He's right, you're wrong; the entire letter of Hebrews warns against "falling-from-salvation".

2:1-3.
3:6-14.
4:1, 4:11 (with 3:18-19)
6:4-6
6:11-12
10:26-29
10:35 (with 10:19, and 6:19 --- don't throw away JESUS!)
12:7-9 (one can CEASE to be "born-again"!)
12:15
12:25
13:9

The whole thing is direct and consistent.

It is encouragement to run the race before us, not to scare us into shivering wreck about keeping what is secure.

Exactly what HAPPENS in that context (12:1), if we are "entangled in sin"? What happened to those in 2Pet2:20-22 who were "entangled in defilements and overcome"?

The Fact we can even run the spiritual race.. is establishment of our salvation.

Excuse me? In 1Cor9:25-27 Paul admonishes us to "race so as to WIN the immortal-crown". And then Paul asserts HE HIMSELF could be disqualified/rejected!!!

Even when we fall we are still on the track and can at any time get back up and continue,,,,,

Wow --- "Even when we fall into sin we're still saved". That opposes Heb10:26-29, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, and bunches of others. It's embracing "Antinomianism", and is not what Jesus taught.

Do you disagree with that statement?

[Gadgeteer]

Just a thought for you insecure-salvation types...

If we can not trust Christ to KEEP OUR SALVATION THEN WHAT USE IS CHRIST!!???!!!
Why even bother trusting him?

Consider Jude 24, which says God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling and to present us before God. Yet --- verses 20-21, we're admonished to "build ourselves in holy faith" and to "keep ourselves in His love". Exactly what do you think those verses teach?

If Christ can Not keep me, then It is UP to me??

In 1Tim4:16, is it up to you to "save yourself" by diligence and conscious perseverance?

THAT IS NOT SALVATION!!!!!!
Salvation is a birth of GOD... Not the will of MAN. ( john 1:13)

Salvation is becoming adopted sons; and that is by receiving the Spirit, Rm8:15.

To state we have to keep our salvation thru some act.. makes it a will of man..

Exactly what do you think Peter was teaching in 2:1:5-11? How is it we're admonished to BE DILIGENT to make our calling and election/salvation FIRM/STEADFAST, that the gates of God's kingdom BE provided to us?

Or do you think the word "ABUNDANT" is the issue? That is --- an abundant entrance to those who have godly fruits, but a SPARSE entrance to those who LACK godliness and moral purity and self-control and kindness and love?

Is there an abundant entrance into eternity for RIGHTEOUS believers, but a sparse entrance for WICKED believers?

I will state this plainly..
( sorry Mods but Truth Is truth.. and we should love the truth and not shrink from it)

Indeed we should. Speaking of "shrinking" --- what is the danger that deceivers present in 1Jn2:26-28, which can cause us to shrink-in-shame before Jesus when He returns?

Why would one shrink in shame, in front of Jesus?

Salvation thru works is NOT salvation.

Salvation is by BELIEVING; Jesus said "believing is the work of God" (Jn6:29).

...but He also said that it's a work that we choose to work.
Jesus: "Do not work for food that perishes, but WORK for food that endures to eternal life."
The Jews said, "What must we do that we work the works of God?"
Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in (Me)." Jn6:25-29.

Salvation thru NOT SINNING is not salvation.

He who is saved, abides in Christ (and Christ in him), and does not abide in sin. Sin is the evidence of not being saved.

So If salvation is not THRU WORKS or NOT SINNING.. then why would SALVATION BE kept thru works and NOT SINNING??

Not "kept by works", but "kept by keeping JESUS".

In 2Jn1:7-9, once again is a warning against deceivers, and the consequence of not heeding the warning is to be found "without God or Jesus". 1Jn5:11-13 says he who has the Son has eternal life. 2Jn plainly states we can "go too far and (no longer) have the Son."

If those are not good enough to GAIN salvation then FOR SURE it is not good enough to KEEP salvation...

We keep salvation the same way we acquire it --- by diligence in faith, by keeping Jesus.

Biblically it is ARROGANCE to think we have a hand in our own salvation.

Two things --- first, it is arrogant to think we can NOT become UNSAVED (Rm11:18-21); second we do have a full hand in our own salvation --- 1Tim4:16!!!

The sin of arrogance is not a method for salvation.
The sin of arrogance is not a method to KEEP salvation.

I look forward to your thoughts on the cited passages. And simply stating "Oh that was CORPORATE treatise" does not overturn the clear dictate of Romans11; "branches" is NOT a corporation (a single nation), but individual members IN that nation (Jews) who were kicked out for unbelief, then we NATURAL BRANCHES (he's addressing each individual Gentile as "a natural branch") were grafted in. Each can be cut off for unbelief, or restored just as the Prodigal was restored when he came to his senses and returned.

Insecure salvation is a direct attack on Christ and the work he has done.

Let's see how that statement fits the cited verses.

Even those who call On the Name of Christ are saved, no works or merit.. no mention of the side effect that you have to keep it.

James, using the "me-dunamai" construct, says in 2:14 "Faith (which produces no good works) can NOT save you, CAN it!"

John 1

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

As many as BELIEVED? You're saying we DO SOMETHING (believe!) to be saved?

(I agree!)

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The BEGOTTENNESS is nothing of us but all of God; but what about becoming begotten? Is the right to begottenness granted before (or apart from) belief?

No.

What about begottenness in terms of PERSEVERANCE in belief? Heb12:7-9 very clearly asserts we can CONTINUE in submission to God AND LIVE, or we can no longer be subject to His discipline and not be sons but illegitimate. Can that be made to fit "can't-ever-become-unsaved"?

How?

To attack the security of Christ the LIVING GOD is to cause fellow believers to stumble and shrink back.

Exactly what causes the shrinking, in 1Jn2:26-28?

Insecure salvation has no doctrinal merit and is in Direct opposition with the DIVINE ATTRIBUTE of the Faithfulness of God.

100% wrong, as we've seen from the cited verses. Now let's add 1Tim2:11-13 to the discussion:

"IF we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

(...but) if we deny Him He will deny us (Matt10:33!); if we are faithless, He remains faithful."

Here is "denying-Jesus and being faithless", set opposed to "died-and-endure-with-Him". We cannot be faithlessly-saved; so it's two very possible eventualities. One SAVED, one NOT (no longer).

While you are in 2Timothy, please give your thoughts on this:

"I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him. ...Retain the standard of sound words (persevere in His teaching!) which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. GUARD, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14.

In what way can "the treasure" here, not be "eternal life"? By the Spirit's power, we guard the treasure of eternal life that has been entrusted to us. How much "individual participation" do you see?

You are ADDING THE WILL OF MAN TO SALVATION!!!

Do you see any "free will" in John7:17?

This is a DIRECT attack on the work of Christ....

Let's see you defend that statement, from Scripture. Not just "ignore it", but fully engage these posts and the cited verses.

Are you game?

I watch how you defend your position.. and it is this verse and that verse like a drunk stumbling along.
But I have yet to see any doctrinal Lay out of the insecure salvation position.

To whom are you speaking? For myself, I've been consistent and completely harmonizing all of Scripture.

I have asked for it..how does insecure salvation mesh with the other doctrines of God?
It DOES NOT!

Yes, it does; the treasure of eternal life is reserved in Heaven for us, who are protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for a salvation to be revealed in the end time. 1Pet1:5. Whose faith? OURS! 1Pet1:9!!!

It is just argument over this out of context passage and that out of context passage, stated as if it is some law.
There is no doctrine behind it... only legalism.

All right; you have lots of "citations", show us "outta context" and "no-doctrine/legalism".

Your serve. :-)

Why Else would a believer want to cause fellow believers to lose the confidence they have in Christ and shrink back..
Unless it was to shrink into some sort of LEGALISM????

No one is promoting legalism. And no one is promoting ANYTHING apart from Scripture; at least, none of us who are corroborating everything with precise references.

Is not the very essence of the insecure salvation position?
Do not sin.. and thru that you can keep salvation. ( aka Legalism.)

"Not-sinning" is but the consequence of "abiding-in-Christ-and-His-teachings".

( sorry Mods, but this is How I see it..Even Christ stated behind white wash of the tombs, are rotting corpses.)

How do you see it now?

Which is not another[/B]; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Did you ever answer Acts20:28-31? Are the SHEEP (and even disciples!) ever really at RISK? Exactly how do you understand that passage?

He called it a perversion of the gospel of Christ.. and that those who preach such things to be accursed.

( Again Mods.. these are Paul's words.. and Context does fit.)
( Mods.. and if this legalism would annoy Paul while he was in the spirit.. then it certainly should annoy other spirit filled believers )

I'm more concerned with how your ideas fit with the cited Scriptures. I don't see a fit; do you?

Paul also states...: “After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” (Galatians 3:3)

Now wait, these Galatians were "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7), they were "KNOWN by God"!!! (4:9) But by turning BACK to weak/worthless things, forsaking GRACE for LAW/WORKS, they became "severed/separated from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE".

How do you make that into NOT "fallen-from-grace"?

For me.... I trust Christ even though I shall fail in many areas, I know Christ is secure,.
For you insecure salvation believers....
I dont care about .. 'what about this verse or that verse'.... lets see the Doctrine.

Our doctrine (each of us) is either supported by by Scripture, or it is not.

I've supported everything by Scripture. Can you do the same?

I look forward to your thoughts with excitement.

:-)

[Colight]

May I? Jesus died for only sins that are repented from.



Not at all. Jesus took away the sin of the world provisionally --- there is no forgiveness of sins without repentance. It is as 1Tim4:10 says, God is the Savior of the world (provision), specially/above-all believers (fulfillment). 1Jn2:2 agrees; He is the propitiation for our sins (believers), and not just ours but also the whole world (provision).

Yet doctrine disagrees,
The doctrine of the gospel states... Christ was judged for ALL sin.
The believer or UNBELIEVER will never see eternal judgement over sin.

Therefore sin can NEVER hold us back from salvation..
What can prevent salvation is man rejection of what God has done in trade for his own self generated righteousness,

Unbelievers will see judgement over rejection of the righteousness of God, which is imputed at salvation.

Therefore they are left to stand on their works... which never matches up to their righteousness of God.
It is MANs own good works of the flesh that condemn him at the last judgement. Not his sin.
Christ was judged for sin. ALL SIN!

The unbeliever builds his own judgement in essence thru his good and righteous deeds..

Yet this must also fit Lk13:3 --- Jesus: "Unless you repent, you will perish."

irrelevant..
You are out of context, and I have ceased jumping here and there over verses.
I am looking for a presentation of a doctrinal case, not 'What about THIS VERSE or that VERSE!!!'

"Sin" does not condemn; unbelief condemns. (Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10). But sin exposes a heart that was NOT saved, which dwelt in sin rather than in Christ.

What you state is the heart of legalism, only thru following rules can one be salved..(aka do not sin) rather than grace.
It is adding legalism to salvation.. which is not salvation.

True --- a Christian never will. [b]But a Christian who comes to unbelief and turns to sin, will face "the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries". Heb10:26-29!

You ignore grace, with a trend to legalism.. God knows we are of sin.

You are disregarding Scriptures that speak of a believer coming to UNBELIEF.

As Paul said in Rom11:18-23, "Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (broken off for unbelief), neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God --- to you, kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again..."

You sir are grossly ignoring the context of that passage.
which is

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

It is not a passage over salvation, rather over national blessings.
He is writing to the ROMANS and explaining why Israel is cut off, at a NATIONAL level.
And if God would cut off his own nation, he will cut off gentile nations also.

Therefore to defend legalism, a distortion of scripture is used.
This is why I rejected the doctrinal out come you support.

He's right, you're wrong; the entire letter of Hebrews warns against "falling-from-salvation".

2:1-3.
3:6-14.
4:1, 4:11 (with 3:18-19)
6:4-6
6:11-12
10:26-29
10:35 (with 10:19, and 6:19 --- don't throw away JESUS!)
12:7-9 (one can CEASE to be "born-again"!)
12:15
12:25
13:9

The whole thing is direct and consistent.

Hebrews is about staying in the race and moving on to more advanced things..
If one is not even secure in their salvation which is a milk doctrine how can they be expected to understand the more advanced doctrines of spiritual growth to occupation with Christ.

Like that passage in Romans..
To defend legalism passages are taken out of Context and ONE-LINERS are developed to support another gospel.
A gospel of salvation by legalism.
I have went over these passage with you before, yet you use the same lines..
copy and paste..
no doctrine..
no in depth examination of the doctrine you support..
only what about this verse and that verse..

I am looking for the doctrine that is taught.. Not verses posted in my face.
You fail to teach doctrine, I wish to test it..
You have not presented it in a manner that is open for testing.
For we are warned....

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

To me what sort of doctrine is it that we can not trust in Christ and his grace to keep us when we fall?
Let us see it for testing.

Exactly what HAPPENS in that context (12:1), if we are "entangled in sin"? What happened to those in 2Pet2:20-22 who were "entangled in defilements and overcome"?

Sounds like more legalism..
man avoiding sin is not a way to maintain salvation.. that is works of the flesh.
We started in the spirit, why is it suddenly works of the flesh make us perfect?

Excuse me? In 1Cor9:25-27 Paul admonishes us to "race so as to WIN the immortal-crown". And then Paul asserts HE HIMSELF could be disqualified/rejected!!!

Unbelievers can not run this race.
They are the only ones that are disqualified/rejected!

The fact we are on the track means we are qualified, even if we never get past the starting gate.
We can NEVER be removed from the track.

Wow --- "Even when we fall into sin we're still saved". That opposes Heb10:26-29, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, and bunches of others. It's embracing "Antinomianism", and is not what Jesus taught.

Do you disagree with that statement?

You forget...Antinomianism is not a method to obtain salvation or keep salvation.
Therefore it is irrelevant..
Just as legalism is not a way to obtain salvation or keep salvation.
Christ is the protector and keeper of our salvation.
We who are saved are his property and we will never cease being his.

[Colight]

Two things --- first, it is arrogant to think we can NOT become UNSAVED

It is arrogant to say our salvation belongs to God?

second we do have a full hand in our own salvation -{

Then what you state is not grace, it is very clear that salvation is thru grace

[Bandit]

Then what you state is not grace, it is very clear that salvation is thru grace

I have a question. How would the need for cooperation with salvation negate the grace of it?

[Colight]

I have a question. How would the need for cooperation with salvation negate the grace of it?

Is your question directed at the foundation of salvation, or after salvation?

[Bandit]

Is your question directed at the foundation of salvation, or after salvation?

My question is directed at salvation. If the one to be saved (or being saved) is required to cooperate to be saved (or continue being saved), how does that cooperation negate the grace in salvation?

[Colight]

My question is directed at salvation. If the one to be saved (or being saved) is required to cooperate to be saved (or continue being saved), how does that cooperation negate the grace in salvation?

cooperation for salvation in what form..