John 6 and (N)OSAS

[Colight]

"Hold fast the sound words"? Is this not asserting "persevere in Christ's teachings, as you do you will save yourselves" (1Tim4:16)?

The passage is 2 Tim1:12... you are jumping again. That is not how bible study works. We go by context.
The context for salvation is not in 2 Tim 1:12....
IN the CONTEXT presented you are not making a case.

It makes little difference whether we call it "guard salvation", or "guard the doctrine of the gospel given to you"; if we guard salvation we remain saved. If we guard the pure doctrine we remain saved. Potato potahto.

Eternal damnation is based on the LAW of the supreme high court of heaven, the perfection of God himself demands judgement,
In court every utterance, every word, every letter, and every thought makes a difference.
You are showing a disrespect for the divine decrees that condemn mankind and the judgement payed by our benefactor..Christ Jesus.

For Paul wish that the doctrine stays pure, is not a sign any of them can lose salvation... you just and not making that case.. with out distorting and out right lying.

"Guard the teachings" is absolutely "stay saved", just as it is in other passages like 1Tim4:16.

We are not jumping around to this verse or that verse... the passage at hand is the one you have brought up and I delved into... 2Tim1:12-14..
You say how I avoid verses, well here we are on some verses and now you want to be like a grass hopper.
You made this lily pad now stick with it.

[Gadgeteer]

You have to get out of the english and this is all so much more clear.
This is why my position that a pastor with out greek and hebrew understanding is USELESS!!
For doctrine based on shoddy translations becomes taught

We have access to the Greek and Hebrew lexicons; and we have commentaries from people like Robertson.

2Ti 2:11 Steadfast [is] the word: For if we died together -- we also shall live together;

You don't see "if we died THEN we shall live"?

( we share in Christs death on the Cross, so we shall live together for Christ is in us at salvation.. THEREFORE SALVATION IS SECURE!!!!)

No, it does NOT say "We have died SO we shall live"...
...it says "IF we died we shall live". It is an "if/then" statement, even if "then" is not blatantly spelled out.

2Ti 2:12 if we do endure together -- we shall also reign together;

"If/then" --- once again. If we do NOT endure, if we have NOT died to sin, then we shall NOT reign and endure with Him.

if we deny [him], he also shall deny us;

This is a change --- it's not the same issue --- if we deny Jesus then Jesus will deny us to God!!!

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Matt10:33

Do you think Jesus can deny someone before God but that person will still prance through the gates of God's kingdom?

Endure is tied to deny..

Quite the opposite --- "deny" is opposed to "endure".

Endure = hypomenō = to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ

That's right --- hold fast to one's faith in Christ, remain saved.

Deny = arneomai = to deny one's self - to disregard his own interests or to prove false to himself ( We fail to be what God has designed us to be, we are false to our self..

How do you make "deny Christ", into "deny OURSELVES"? Paul said "If we DENY CHRIST".

The fact we can be false to what we are designed to be is yet another case of OSAS..

If we are FALSE, then we are not saved. The idea of "false-saved" is yet another case of Antinomianism/Gnosticism.

for the natural man is not of the same design as we are !! )

One who is "natural/fleshly/worldly", is not saved. Not no way not no how.

Therefore if we ENDURE we get REWARD aka reigning with CHRIST ( NOT ALL BELIEVERS WILL GET THIS TREAT!!)
IF we deny what we are and God has for us, he will deny us the REWARDS and REIGNING with him !!)

If we deny CHRIST (not if we deny what we are), if we do not endure and if we are faithless we'll still waltz through the gates of God's kingdom? How? What is the difference between a sheep and a goat?

Then Paul goes on to state...

2Ti 2:13 if we are not stedfast, he remaineth stedfast; to deny himself he is not able.

We are PART OF CHRIST therefore he is stedfast to us...even if we are not. aka OSAS!

So we can be faithlessly-saved?

Maybe we should mark out Eph2:8 and rewrite it:
"For by grace with or without faith have you been saved..."

So a CHRISTIAN..( who is part of the body of Christ BY BIRTH ) who is FAITHLESS and even denying Jesus can still enter Heaven!

Really! So some Christians are really "whitewashed GOATS". On the other thread I cited 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, and Gal5:19-21 (not to mention 1Jn3:5-10) --- they all say those who walk in sin (by definition "are faithless") will not inherit. How does "will-not-inherit", become "will-inherit"? How are those verses rewritten?

That Christian will be a ETERNAL PEON there. Glad to not be in the lake of fire, but perhaps wishing he had labored for those rewards..Welcome to the world of Grace.

Okay --- such a person is in Heaven, laughing at the people in Hell, saying to them:

"Gosh I'm glad I'm here and not there; the difference between you and me, is ---"

Uhm, exactly what IS the difference, Colight? What did the "sinning-saved" do, different from the "sinning-perished"?

[Colight]

No, it does NOT say "We have died SO we shall live"...
...it says "IF we died we shall live". It is an "if/then" statement, even if "then" is not blatantly spelled out.

Paul is wring this to cover unbelievers..therefore the "IF"
My statement addresses ONLY believers.
We shared in Christ death, so we shall share in his life.

"If/then" --- once again. If we do NOT endure, if we have NOT died to sin, then we shall NOT reign and endure with Him.

That is not what it is stating, that is LEGALISM..
There is NOTHING in this about dying to sin( that is shoddy legalism )..and dont dare start thowing other out of context verses into this.

This is enduring in our present sinful state of man while keeping faith in Christ and advaning thru the storm against us to maturity, the result will be REWARD. Not salvation for we all ready have that as believers.

This is a change --- it's not the same issue --- if we deny Jesus then Jesus will deny us to God!!!

It is the same issue, that being reward.

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Matt10:33


Do you think Jesus can deny someone before God but that person will still prance through the gates of God's kingdom?

Out of context..stick with the passage at hand.

The reciver ( Timothy ) of Pauls letter understood this just as Paul wrote it.. therefore lets try to not distort with some preconcived agenda.. Notice Paul did not say.. Just as Bro Matthew wrote,,,,,

How do you make "deny Christ", into "deny OURSELVES"? Paul said "If we DENY CHRIST".

Paul used the word arneomai..We are denying our self what is good for us, what we are ment to have, we are going against our own better judgement ... which is reward thru the growth Christ demands of us (aka verse 12), so Christ doesnt force us beyond our capacity and denys us the blessings he would have given us if we had pressed on.

If we are FALSE, then we are not saved. The idea of "false-saved" is yet another case of Antinomianism/Gnosticism.

IF we are not saved then we can not deny ourself, nor would Christ have any need to deny us spiritual blessings.. for we would not be his to bless. So the very fact Christ can deny us spiritual blessings, proves our secure salvation.

So we can be faithlessly-saved?

Yeah, one can lose faith and still be saved.
For they are still part of the body of Christ, and he does not hack off limbs.. some my be a foot or the rear end.. but all are a part.

[Gadgeteer]

The passage is 2 Tim1:12... you are jumping again. That is not how bible study works.

Yes it is. "Scripture interprets Scripture". If someone tells me "Matthew24:24 says it is NOT POSSIBLE to be deceived", I will of course cite Acts20:16 --- "ei dunatos" means is possible in Acts20, therefore it means "is possible" in Matthew24. If someone tells me "Tereo-ek means take us out of the world in Revelation3:10" (pre-Trib rapture), I will of course cite John17:15 where "airo-ek" means take-out, but "tereo-ek" means keep in the MIDST. If you had been in one of those discussions you would be saying "Stop jumping around".

It's not "jumping around", it's valid Scriptural exegesis. Context sometimes is immediate, and context is sometimes with the whole.

We go by context.

They're both letters to Timothy, but your claim of "non-context" is only an excuse to disregard verses which conflict your doctrine.

The context for salvation is not in 2 Tim 1:12....
IN the CONTEXT presented you are not making a case.

Yes I am. Because you redefine words like "the treasure" to not mean "salvation", you claim it's NOT supporting "perseverance in salvation". Even though it states "hold fast the sound words", and you don't wanna let me make the connection with "abide in Jesus' teachings" in another letter to Timothy.

"Hold-fast-the-sound-words-you've-heard-from-me", is the same as "persevere in your teaching", whether someone likes it or not.

It makes little difference whether we call it "guard salvation", or "guard the doctrine of the gospel given to you"; if we guard salvation we remain saved. If we guard the pure doctrine we remain saved. Potato potahto.

Eternal damnation is based on the LAW of the supreme high court of heaven, the perfection of God himself demands judgment,
In court every utterance, every word, every letter, and every thought makes a difference.
You are showing a disrespect for the divine decrees that condemn mankind and the judgment payed by our benefactor..Christ Jesus.

"Hold-fast-the-sound-words" (2Tim1:13), is the same as "persevere in your teaching" (1Tim4:16). The second statement is in context with "as you do you will save yourselves", the first is in context with "guard the treasure entrusted to you". All you have to deny "guard-the-treasure" does not mean "save-yourselves", is your declaration, and protest for "jumping around".

For Paul wishing that the doctrine stays pure, is not a sign any of them can lose salvation... you just and not making that case.. with out distorting and outright lying.

I can't respond; to respond we would have to have more of a common foundation, and your belief that "practicing sin does not compromise our place in Christ" is not enough for discussion.

Guard the teachings" is absolutely "stay saved", just as it is in other passages like 1Tim4:16.

We are not jumping around to this verse or that verse...

Because you say so.

the passage at hand is the one you have brought up and I delved into... 2Tim1:12-14..
You say how I avoid verses, well here we are on some verses and now you want to be like a grass hopper.
You made this lily pad now stick with it.

Let's see what other posters here think --- is what I said true?

"Hold-fast-the-sound-words" (2Tim1:13), is the same as "persevere in your teaching" (1Tim4:16). The second statement is in context with "as you do you will save yourselves", the first is in context with "guard the treasure entrusted to you".

Is "hold-fast-the-sound-words" the same as "persevere-in-your-teaching"?
Is "guard-the-treasure-entrusted-to-you", the same as "persevere in your teaching and save yourselves"?

Is my connection between 1Tim4:16 and 2Tim1:12-14 valid? Or is it "empty grasshopper/lily-pad jumping"?

What does everyone think?

[Gadgeteer]

Is "hold-fast-the-sound-words" the same as "persevere-in-your-teaching"?
Is "guard-the-treasure-entrusted-to-you", the same as "persevere in your teaching and save yourselves"?

Is my connection between 1Tim4:16 and 2Tim1:12-14 valid? Or is it "empty grasshopper/lily-pad jumping"?

What does everyone think?

BTW, Robertson makes the connection between 2Tim1:12-14 and 1Tim6:19-20:

"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"—
which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you. "

In what Universe is "guard-what-has-been-entrusted" not admonishing "continue-in-salvation" (don't be like those who have gone astray from the faith)?

[Colight]

Gadgeteer

Your dogma is different than mine..
Therefore never shall the two meet.

[Gadgeteer]

Paul is wring this to cover unbelievers..therefore the "IF"

Sooooo -- when Paul says "we", he includes HIMSELF if it's "believers/died/endure", but it's UNBELIEVERS if it's "faithless/denying". Wait --- you subscribe to "faithless-SAVED". I get confused about what you believe.

My statement addresses ONLY believers.
We shared in Christ's death, so we shall share in his life.

But I don't see how we can separate BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS in 2Tim2:11-13; if WE died/endure, we remain saved and live and reign with Christ. BUT if we are faithless and deny Christ He will deny us and we will NOT be saved nor live nor reign with Him, even though GOD remains faithful.

That's how I understand it, and it's not confusing.

"If/then" --- once again. If we do NOT endure, if we have NOT died to sin, then we shall NOT reign and endure with Him.

That is not what it is stating, that is LEGALISM..
There is NOTHING in this about dying to sin (that is shoddy legalism )..and don't dare start throwing other out of context verses into this.

You think "If you've died", has nothing to do with ...say... Rom6:1?

"How can we who have died to sin, still live in it?"

This is enduring in our present sinful state of man while keeping faith in Christ and advancing thru the storm against us to maturity, the result will be REWARD. Not salvation for we all ready have that as believers.

Reward --- for those who, like the Prodigal, never became unsaved but got sidetracked into drunkenness, harlotry, carousing, even lost and DEAD. But he never reflected an UNSAVED person.

Uh, huh...

It is the same issue, that being reward.

How can someone tell when "WE" means us-saved, and when it means you-unsaved?

(...before that, what's the difference between the saved and the unsaved, if both can be practicing sin?)

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Matt10:33

Do you think Jesus can deny someone before God but that person will still prance through the gates of God's kingdom?

Out of context..stick with the passage at hand.

So you don't think "Jesus denying us" is the same as "Jesus denying us"?

Yes it is.

The receiver (Timothy) of Paul's letter understood this just as Paul wrote it.. therefore let's try to not distort with some preconceived agenda..

"Preconceived agenda"! I know someone who is king of "preconceptions"...

Notice Paul did not say.. Just as Bro Matthew wrote

Sigh.

Paul used the word arneomai..We are denying our self what is good for us, what we are meant to have, we are going against our own better judgment ... which is reward thru the growth Christ demands of us (aka verse 12), so Christ doesn't force us beyond our capacity and denies us the blessings he would have given us if we had pressed on.

It doesn't say "He denies anything TO us", it says "He will deny US".

IF we are not saved then we can not deny ourselves, nor would Christ have any need to deny us spiritual blessings.. for we would not be his to bless. So the very fact Christ can deny us spiritual blessings, proves our secure salvation.

"If we deny Him, He also will deny US...

Yeah, one can lose faith and still be saved.

"By grace through faith have you been saved" --- and you're promoting "by grace with or WITHOUT faith are you saved".

For they are still part of the body of Christ, and he does not hack off limbs.. some my be a foot or the rear end.. but all are a part.

No, "getting cut off" is not in Scripture.
(cough *Jn15:2,6* cough) (cough *Rm11:18-23* cough)

Goodness, gotta go get myself a cough drop...

[BroRog]

Hello BroRog,

Well, below is a bit of what you said previously. I underlined some portions where we disagree. You don't seem to have allowed for the fact that God's will may be to give to the Son those who willfully choose to follow Him. You seem to want to downplay the fact that men have full freedom of choice in following Christ As you said, "God makes us come to Jesus." That statement is where we disagree. God does not make us come to Jesus.

I see where you have underlined portions of what I said. But I don't see where you have given me reasons to think that what I said isn't true. The reason I downplay, or even negate the freewill of man, is because this passage and others like them take man's decision of the the equation. In John 6, for instance, Jesus is giving the crowds his explanation for why some of them are not accepting the fact that he is the messiah sent from God.

35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

Why is it that some remain incredulous, even in the face of overwhelming evidence? Jesus claims that until the Father does whatever the Father does, a man will not believe. Only those folks whom the Father has caused or allowed to believe will believe. The Jews of his day didn't start off in neutral. They remained incredulous and skeptical about a man's claim to be the messiah until it could be shown to be otherwise. Jesus has observed that some men, however, remain incredulous even in the face of the evidence. In order for a man to believe, something must be given to them from heaven, like the mana. In other words, unless the Father has given a man to Jesus, he will not come to him because the Father must do something to cause a man to be willing to accept that truth.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Nothing in that statement suggests the will of man. As I say, Jesus didn't say, "All that decide to come to me . . .", using the free will choice of a man as the basis for coming to him. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me . . ." using God's will as the basis for a man's coming to Jesus. He says this in the context of his earlier statement that some of the people who have seen him, i.e. the Holy Spirit has proven and verified the identity of Jesus as the Son of God through the many signs and wonders he performed -- some of them that have seen him refuse to accept the truth of what has been proven to them. And what is the explanation for that? Only those whom the Father draws to Jesus will come to him.

44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Again, Jesus has emphasized the fact of our existence. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Not only this, but the only men and women who come to Jesus are those whom the Father teaches. If a man doesn't learn from the Father, what the Father teaches him, he will not come to Jesus.

[Eyelog]

=============
Edited point: Moved to new post in this thread.

[Bandit]

Hello BroRog,

Well, below is a bit of what you said previously. I underlined some portions where we disagree. You don't seem to have allowed for the fact that God's will may be to give to the Son those who willfully choose to follow Him. You seem to want to downplay the fact that men have full freedom of choice in following Christ As you said, "God makes us come to Jesus." That statement is where we disagree. God does not make us come to Jesus.

I see where you have underlined portions of what I said. But I don't see where you have given me reasons to think that what I said isn't true. The reason I downplay, or even negate the freewill of man, is because this passage [John 6:37] and others like them take man's decision [out] of the the equation.

Hello BroRog,

But I did give you some reasons. Did you not consider what I wrote in post 169? So here it is again. Please don't claim that I have not attempted to explain how your view of this passage is suspect. You have simply passed over my explanation without addressing it. Remember, John 6:37 says that the Father does something. (He gives persons to the Son.) This verse does not say how He does it, or what criterion He may use in making His decision on just who to give. So the question is, can He base His decision on whom to give to the Son upon some characteristic of the persons themselves? John 6:37 does not address this question, but many other passages do. So, what do you think about my argument (in green)?

Excuse me, BroRog, but perhaps I can give you something to chew on as far as how one should read John 6:37. First, let me point out that you are assuming that the Father takes nothing into account as far as deciding who to give to the Son. This is an assumption which the verse really doesn't support. All this verse says is God gives (persons) to the Son. The verse makes no mention as to how the Father makes His decision. So the decision of who to give is His - but He has not at all stated in this verse how He makes that decision. Let me suggest you read John 6:45 where Jesus says, "Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." So I believe this verse taken together with verse 37 states that those who the Father gives to the Son are those who previously have willfully listened to and learned from the Father.

[Eyelog]

It is an honor and privilege to call you "brother". Whoever said "you can't take it with you", was an idiot; if our treasure includes those who have become family with us through Christ, then we CAN take our treasure with us! I'd love for everyone here to become part of my treasure; and it's my heart's desire that I be considered treasure to brothers and sisters.
Ahhh, but you and I are imperfect, "seeing in a mirror darkly, until the perfect comes". Take what you and I just discovered about Matt24:24 --- by including Acts20:16, it has to mean that the false can deceive even the elect! So if someone thought "it's not possible to deceive the elect" before, I don't see how they still can.

And sometimes you, or I, can misunderstand what they wrote. I pray that as "iron sharpens iron", we will each encourage the other closer to God and stronger in faith (and deeper into the Word!).
What's important, is to understand what is our RISK.

I think Peter was clear in 2:1:5-11 --- that diligence IN salvation is required of us, that we are allowed to enter the very eisodos-gates of His kingdom.
Ahhh, there are many who think they're saved but are not. Matt7:21-23 are some, Revelation3:14-22 are more. I think if I was any one of "poor blind miserable wretched naked" I would KNOW it --- but they did NOT. Scary.
Isn't it Proverbs that says "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"? Don't ever change your enthusiasm, or your yearning for Him and His righteousness. I pray that I'll always imitate you.
More "encouraging apathy". Like those in Matt7:21-23 and Rev3:14-22? Amen! VERY well said! That's the point!
But --- are we still tempted to SIN? So while every word of what you say is TRUE, I hear haunting words echoing in my heart:

"Let he who thinks he STAND take heed, lest he FALL!!!" 1Cor10:12
Kinda denying verses like Jn16:33, and Lk21:16-17.
Very, very nice. Psalm37:4 connects very solidly with James4:1-4.
This is true --- yet --- passages like Heb3:6-14 warns us not to harden our hearts, to guard against being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from God. That's why we're partners in Christ IF we hold fast firm until the end.

You are on fire for God, Eyelog. But what happens to a campfire if you aren't diligent about its fuel? That's my whole point --- "draw near to God and He will draw near to you".
And what you just said, "our communion with God", is what _I_ just said about keeping fuel on our fire!

"Building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life"! Jude20-21

No --- tell me WHY you think it's wrong. With Scripture.

Well, in this post are some precise Scripture quotes; looking forward to your thoughts.
But he who is truly in love with God through Jesus, is. :-)
Clarification --- God's calling and election are irrevocable (Rom11:29); and He will never leave us nor forsake us (Heb13:5). But look at His faithfulness in the face of our possible faithlessness and denying Christ, 2Tim2:11-13.

Do you still think so? Do not those Scripture citations I've been posting, fit what I've said?
Those Scriptures we've talked about -- for instance, 2Pet2:20-22 -- I think we've proven Peter presented them as saved. Remember the "ei-dunatos" between Matt24:24 and Acts20:16? 2Pet20-22 uses the same descriptive words as 2Pet1:1-4; if those in ch1 are SAVED, then how can those in ch2 (described with the same words not also be saved?

The only difference is "corruptions" ch1, and "defilements" ch2. What did you think about what I said about 1Jn2:19, the context of 1:2:26-28, and 2Jn1:7-9?

1Jn2:26-28 is a fall-from-salvation warning; and 2Jn1:7-9 is a clear "they went out from us and became unsaved". How can a name be blotted if it wasn't ever there? In the end, we can fully disagree on "OSAS/OSNAS"; but ending up on the same place, together with JESUS when He returns, every one of us wins.
IF we CONTINUE --- Heb3:6, Heb3:14, Col1:21-23, 1Cor15:2, etc.

The pleasure is mine. I'm convinced with certainty that this conversation is edifying to the brotherhood, and pleasing to God. May our words always fulfill that.

:-)

Blessings to you, Gadg, who have many gifts of insight.

First of all, thank you for being very gracious.

Second, if this conversation were face to face, I think we would understand each other a whole lot better.

Third, but if we had to rely on that, we wouldn't be having a conversation, because we don't know each other.

Fourth, therefore, I will take a couple of pains to be more clear.


The One-Two Step of Getting to the Point Where a Person is BEING Saved

I. If a person makes it to heaven/paradise/to be with the Lord forever, it is because they (a) believed in their heart Jesus is savior and (b) confessed with their mouth Jesus is Lord. Romans 10:8-10.

AND

II. Depending on how long they live after they first believed and confessed, it will also be because they (c) persevered in those two very things.

Here's some critical Scriptural evidence of this:

Revelation 14:11-13
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is (c) the perseverance of the saints who keep (b) the commandments of God and (a)their faith in Jesus.

Many believers can't handle even peer pressure or poliitcs at work enough to avoid disobeying God and going along with the crowd, essentially turning their back on Christ. They are not very perseverant. But we are meant to prepare to be ready to deal with the greatest of challenges to our faith, which will come during the persecution of the saints by the Beast:

And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “ Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

When a believer relies on the idea that they will not have to deal with having to persevere in the face of losing their job, their ability to buy food, their freedom, their family and their very lives, (a) they are engaging in unrealistic wishful thinking or 'denial,' which may cause them to fail to persevere in lesser challenges to their faith, and (b) they fail to seek to strengthen themselves so they will incearsingly be able to (c) persevere while staying true to Christ in their (a) beliefs and in their (b) confession.




So, except for those experiencing instant death, like a heart attack or fatal wounds at the moment of their confession, everyone in heaven, or the New Jerusalem or whatever, has persevered to the end, and thereby overcome the world.

B]Romans 2:7
to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;[/B]

Romans 8:25
But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Romans 15:4-6
4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:12
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments;
and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Revelation 1:9
[ The Patmos Vision ] I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 2:26
He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Revelation 13:10
If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:11-13
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep (b) the commandments of God and (a)their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘ Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”


Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

A. One might complain that no one is perfect and no one can persevere perfectly. Actually, when we have moral or other failures, it is the perseverant ones who get back up on the horse and continue on to victory. Their victory is perfect and of the lord, but their effort is directed at seeking and engaging the Lord, as they do all they can to continue on in life, faith and their good confession, which is their words and actions consistent with a truth faith in Jesus as their Lord.

B. One might complain if we must persevere to be saved, then that's a works-based salvation -- the big no-no. But, no, we persevere in our belief and our confession of Christ, with love in our hearts for God -- based on our belief He is our Savior and our confession He is our Lord.

That's the topic for another thread: They hyper-grace hysteria ravaging our doctrine. Again, extreme confusion leading to a people almost totally unprepared to persevere.

C. OSAS: Those who persevere don't completely quit. They may have setbacks, but they come back. You aren't "being saved" until you enter into persevering mode. Those who do not persevere are not "being saved", and those who did not persevere did not get saved from Hell. But perseverance is about pressing on, enduring, seeking and engaging Him for leading and power, finding a way (as love always does), and not giving up even in the face of apparent defeat. Peter, who appeared defeated, did not give up, but came back, sought out the rumored, resurrected Jesus, and he found repentance and forgiveness and empowerment. He ended up one of the most powerful men of faith in the Bible.

So, again, those who are being saved persevere to the end, and they cannot fail, because if they were those who fail, they would not be perseverant, and they would not be saved. It's a matter of definition.

And I take this tack to illustrate my point. The motives behind those of us who intensely studying OSAS/NOSAS need to be fine tuned toward using the issues to help us all get to answering the question: How then should we live? (No reference to Chuck C's book, though his view is welcome, of course).

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer

Your dogma is different than mine..

That's be cause one of us aligns with Scripture.

(Hint --- it's the one who cites Scripture exhaustively, which the other calls "jumping around"...)

Therefore never shall the two meet.

My neighbor had an old nag he loved, used her to plow the south forty. But she'd stand in one place so long, birds will build homes in her fur. He asked me if I knew how to stop that.

"Oh yes!" I said. "Sprinkle yeast on her."
"WHAT?!" he cried -- "How will that work?!"

"Oh Jed, surely you've heard -- 'Yeast is yeast and nest is nest, and never the mane shall tweet!"

[Gadgeteer]

Hello BroRog,

But I did give you some reasons. Did you not consider what I wrote in post 169? So here it is again. Please don't claim that I have not attempted to explain how your view of this passage is suspect. You have simply passed over my explanation without addressing it. Remember, John 6:37 says that the Father does something. (He gives persons to the Son.) This verse does not say how He does it, or what criterion He may use in making His decision on just who to give. So the question is, can He base His decision on whom to give to the Son upon some characteristic of the persons themselves? John 6:37 does not address this question, but many other passages do.

John6:37, 39, 44, and 65 must be considered as their purpose --- what was Jesus' point, why did He say them?

Verse 44 is in response to verse 42. The Jews were offended when Jesus alluded to His authority-from-God. They said, essentially:

"We saw this kid grow up, now He says He's come down out of Heaven? Who does He think He IS?!"

So when Jesus said "Don't grumble, no one comes to Me unless the Father draws him" --- Jesus is clearly asserting "those who come to Me, are authorized by God, I am authorized, that's who I am!"

The passage is an "I-am-authorized" dissertation, not a "you-are-predestined" one.

Excuse me, BroRog, but perhaps I can give you something to chew on as far as how one should read John 6:37. First, let me point out that you are assuming that the Father takes nothing into account as far as deciding who to give to the Son. This is an assumption which the verse really doesn't support. All this verse says is God gives (persons) to the Son. The verse makes no mention as to how the Father makes His decision. So the decision of who to give is His - but He has not at all stated in this verse how He makes that decision. Let me suggest you read John 6:45 where Jesus says, "Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." So I believe this verse taken together with verse 37 states that those who the Father gives to the Son are those who previously have willfully listened to and learned from the Father.

VERY valid point --- those who have heard AND LEARNED come to Jesus. What control do we have over "learning" --- is it a choice?

Contrast 1Tim3:15, where we can study Scripture and gain conviction/wisdom that leads to saving-faith in Christ Jesus --- with John5:39-47, where Jesus rebuked the Jews who studied Scripture but refused to come to Him to have life. Why were they unwilling to come? Because they would not believe Moses, because they sought their OWN glory rather than God's, but beneath all that because they would not love God. So here we have two instances of "studying Scripture", one where the students can "choose to learn", and one where the students refused.

Final question --- those God gives to Jesus, are they believers before or after being "given-to-Jesus"? Jn17:6 says they belong to God BEFORE being given. If that aligns with Jn8:42, then "given" denotes "belief" --- those who believe and love GOD, are therefore given THROUGH that belief to Jesus. This fits John14, "You believe in God, believe also in Me; if you have seen Me you've seen the Father, I am in the Father and the Father is in Me."

Applied to OSAS, "given" is "believing" --- if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be "given". Jesus has not cast him out (Jn6:37); no one has "harpazo-siezed/forced him out of Jesus' hands" (Jn10:26-28), he has walked away just as surely as the Prodigal did and has become just as "lost and dead" (Lk15:32). If such an unbeliever "comes to his senses and returns", he will be welcomed back just as the Prodigal was (Lk15:17, 2Tim2:25-25, Rm11:23); and all Heaven will rejoice IF he returns (Lk15:7).

:-)

[BroRog]

Hello BroRog,

But I did give you some reasons. Did you not consider what I wrote in post 169? So here it is again. Please don't claim that I have not attempted to explain how your view of this passage is suspect. You have simply passed over my explanation without addressing it.

My apologies. I thought I did address your explanation.

Remember, John 6:37 says that the Father does something. (He gives persons to the Son.) This verse does not say how He does it, or what criterion He may use in making His decision on just who to give.

True, except for one thing. Jesus makes this statement in the context of a group of men who are refusing to believe him, and the statement in John 6:37 explains why. The reason why such men are not believing him is the fact that unbelief is indicative of those whom the Father has not given to Jesus.

So the question is, can He base His decision on whom to give to the Son upon some characteristic of the persons themselves?

He could, but we would need further explanation from Jesus as to what being "given" to him means and how this explains why some men remain stubbornly incredulous.

John 6:37 does not address this question, but many other passages do. So, what do you think about my argument (in green)?

Excuse me, BroRog, but perhaps I can give you something to chew on as far as how one should read John 6:37. First, let me point out that you are assuming that the Father takes nothing into account as far as deciding who to give to the Son. This is an assumption which the verse really doesn't support. All this verse says is God gives (persons) to the Son. The verse makes no mention as to how the Father makes His decision. So the decision of who to give is His - but He has not at all stated in this verse how He makes that decision. Let me suggest you read John 6:45 where Jesus says, "Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." So I believe this verse taken together with verse 37 states that those who the Father gives to the Son are those who previously have willfully listened to and learned from the Father.

As you say, perhaps verse 37 alone doesn't prove that the Father's decision is prior to mine (but I think it is implied there.) If we can not draw a conclusion about how God decides to give the son from verse 37, then neither of us can use that verse to support our theories.

You propose that verse 45 gives us the answer, but I don't agree. It still begs the question, what explains the fact that some people remain stubbornly incredulous even in light of supernaturally supplied evidence? Verse 45, even in combination with verse 37 doesn't explicitly lay out for us God's rational for whom he gives to Jesus. If folks are naturally predisposed to distrust God, as the Bible teaches, then it stands to reason that God must have removed such a liability from those whom he taught, so that such a person might come to listen and learn from the Father. This is more consistent with the previous verse in which Jesus explicitly says that NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.

Secondly, if as you say that God is deciding whom to give to Jesus (whatever that means, and I'm still not clear what you think that means) then those who respond to Jesus in belief are giving themselves to Jesus. Your explanation doesn't nearly fit the idea that the Father is giving people to him as good as the explanation that the Father is simply choosing ahead of time whom to bring to Jesus in belief. If Jesus comes to my town and I accept his gospel, then I am giving myself to Jesus and if so, then in what sense is the Father giving me to Jesus?

If John wants to give a love note to Mary, but for some reason John can't gain direct access to Mary, he will certainly give the note to an intermediary, perhaps her hairdresser Sue, who will pass John's note to Mary. While it may be true that Sue gave the note to Mary, the significant point is that John gave the note to Mary. In other words, the note expresses John's love for Mary, not necessarily Sue's love of Mary and it was John giving Mary the note even if he had to engage an intermediary in the process.

According to my analogy, then, the Father is John and Jesus is Mary and I am the intermediary and the note is my heart. While it is my heart that I give to Jesus, it was the Father who first gave me the heart to give to Jesus and the fact that I am giving my heart to Jesus might be an expression of my own love for Jesus but the primary expression is the Father's love for the Son. If something like this scenario is not the case, then I have no idea what it would mean for the Father to give me to his son. If my ability to believe in his son is not somehow contingent on something the Father does in me or to me, then I don't see the connection Jesus has made between my believing him and the Father giving me to him. Otherwise I am just giving myself to Jesus and the Father has nothing to do with it.

[Bandit]

... If something like this scenario is not the case, then I have no idea what it would mean for the Father to give me to his son. ...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I'll try to get a more detail response out when I have more time (which might not be until tomorrow). You are stuck deep into calvinist predestination theology, and I'm not sure how to get you to see beyond it. Let me think about it, but I think John chapter 5 will be involved.