The gates to the city would be locked on a Sabbath day, making it impossible to escape the destuction which began before 70 AD.
Citizen
**
The gates to the city would be locked on a Sabbath day, making it impossible to escape the destuction which began before 70 AD.
Last edited by Cliff H; May 31st 2009 at 01:17 PM. Reason: correction
What exactly do you mean ""Christ has fulfilled the law."?Originally Posted by notuptome
Stuart Shepherd
Grand Master
See the parallel passage in Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
On the face of it Jesus' prophecy doesn't make sense - how can someone flee from a city under siege? But just as with so many Old Testament prophecies, Jesus knew an unpredictable detail:
"It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." (Josephus, War of the Jews Book II 19:6-7)
When this happened the Christian Jews in Jerusalem fled to the mountains (and were saved) all the non-Christian Jews living around fled into the city (and starved to death or were killed).
Couple of morals to the story:
1. This kind of disproves the idea that God stopped using Jerusalem as a vehicle for prophecy after the crucifixion. (see Luke 21:24 for example?)
2. It also gives a good example of why it's worth taking notice of Jesus' instructions for life even when they seem to fly in the face of common sense.
God bless.
Steven
Citizen
**
according the jews , gentiles are only required to keep the commandments God gave noah
Coffee Break
Yes, this verse was fulfilled in 70AD when Titus attacked Jerusalem. The Sabbath Day was being practiced at that time.
Senior Member
Seeing as this a 3 year old thread, I'll skip the question of eschatology,
Why is though, that we all would agree that we are to:
Love the Lord our God with all our mind, strength, and might,
Honor our father and mother,
and we shall not:
make and worship idols,
covet our neighbor's wife, house, car, truck etc.,
steal,
bear false witness,
cheat,
murder,
commit adultery.
Yet, honoring the Sabbath and keeping it holy is tossed out as legalism? Are we missing something here?
The Sabbath as the Jews taught it yes, but to forsake it alltogether might be something we should seriously rethink.
Mark
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14
(All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)
Posting Freak
So we should live as if there are no commandments? What did Christ say?
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
And we all know where Paul stood on the law...
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
How'd those verses get in there?
Take two styrofoam cups, fill one to the rim with water and take it in your right hand. Now take the other empty one and crush it and discard it with your left hand. Which one did you fulfill? Which one did you fill full?Christ has fulfilled the law.
This is the lesson of the sermon on the mount, Christ filled the law full, giving it a spiritual intent.
The verse in which Christ, Himself, said that He fulfilled the law is directly followed by these plain statements of Christ...
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.The law cannot produce righteousness.
You are confusing righteousness with eternal life. The law does not grant eternal life, that is the gift of God...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But to whom does He give that gift to?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
New Living Translation (©2007)
But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'
English Standard Version (©2001)
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
That's odd, it says right here we are judged according to our works...The substitutionary death of Christ has made grace available to me by faith and that by the word of God. Works can only frustrate grace not add to it.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Hmmm, that might be a road you do not want to go down, If the law is only for Israel, who is the New Covenant for?The law was given only to Israel and that because they asked for it. Why would anyone want to yoke themselves to the law which can only produce death?
For the cause of Christ.
Roger
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Posting Freak
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!Originally Posted by notuptome
Why would anyone want to yoke themselves to the law which can only produce death?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Senior Member
The Sabbath was still in effect till the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. The cue to leave Jerusalem was when the Christians saw the abomination which was sometime mid to late 60's AD, thus the Sabbath reference by Jesus. It was for the first century Christians who had to flee Jerusalem and Judea because of the Roman armies before the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by Titus' soldiers.
Posting Freak
Eusebius, one of the early church fathers wrote: "The whole body, however, of the church of Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and His apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth." Ecclesiastical History, 3:5:3.
They did not see the abomination of desolation in or around 66 AD (depending on which date you think is accurate), they heard a voice that said "Let us remove hence". This is not the final flight of the church, it will happen one more time at the end...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
This finally became possible in the early 1950's when the two superpowers had stockpiled enough WMD's to destroy all life off of the planet. This event was not possible in 70 AD.
Last edited by John 8:32; Jun 20th 2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: spelling
Coffee Break
Good question. With regard to the Ten Commandments, the general principle I use is this. Some of the commandments are specific, i.e. murder and some are less specific like adultery and some are even less specific like "honor your father and mother." Take for example the commandment to "honor your father and mother." While the commandment is simple and easy to understand, it doesn't specify exactly what that honor looks like in any given situation. And perhaps the way we honor our father and mother might look different than the way other cultures or other religions honor parents. The general commandment is to give honor to our parents, place them in high regard, obey them, give deference to them, and etc. And in any given situation we might find ourselves in conflict with our parents and must decide whether such conflict will dishonor our parents etc.
Keeping the Sabbath day holy is another commandment like that. It's important to understand that the Sabbath Day in question isn't the Seventh day of the week. The commandment looks forward to the Sabbath Rest, which is the Seventh day of creation. We are living in the Sixth day of Creation now, and those who love God and hope to live forever in the after life, are looking forward to the Sabbath Day of rest, the Seventh Day.
Those who lived according to Moses, "remembered" the Sabbath day, by resting on the seventh day of the week. The children of Israel, as a group, as a nation of people lived "normal lives" six days out of seven. But every seventh day, the people did something completely different. It wasn't just a day when no work could be performed. It was a day when activities were unique, unusual, not everyday, out of the ordinary, perhaps restful, contemplative, prayerful, meditative, and such things. This was how the nation of Israel were to "remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Whether Gentiles are supposed to remember the Sabbath day in this way is debatable. Gentiles are also to remember the Seventh Day, but not necessarily in the same manner as a Jew. We are to remember the Seventh day, but not necessarily by resting on the seventh day of the week. Each culture and each person might have a different way to remember the Seventh day of Creation and each person should do so.
Regular Contributor
***
I think that you are right. They are still meaningful to Christians. We thus shall keep them not as Law but as Chrsit teaching. To keep them as Law means you shall be judged if you failed. To keep them as teaching means Christ reserves the right to save you even when you failed. It by no means says that you don't need to keep them, the priority may differ the terms may vary though in comparison to the old covenant.
You need to "keep" His teaching, and you shall not simply disregard the following as His teaching;
Matthew 19:
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
21 refers to love and faith (follow Jesus). To Christians that's where the priority is (even though His audience at that time was a Jew).
21 Love (love God and man, it is mentioned elsewhere that these are the most important commandments), and Faith (following Jesus Christ)
19~20 You shall not murder......
17 Keep the commandments (all of them)
It is arguable that the term differs too from that of the Jews, that is, Sunday services may well be accepted as a "Sabbath".
Senior Member
Matt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.Eusebius, one of the early church fathers wrote: "The whole body, however, of the church of Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and His apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth." Ecclesiastical History, 3:5:3.
They did not see the abomination of desolation in or around 66 AD (depending on which date you think is accurate), they heard a voice that said "Let us remove hence". This is not the final flight of the church, it will happen one more time at the end...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Posting Freak
Which generation?
Grand Master
In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul did say, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or SABBATHS, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."
John MacArthur wrote an interesting article about the Sabbath. Here it is below.
We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.
1. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.
2. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
3. The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath. *I would specify UNDER THE NEW COVENANT.* In the New Testament, Jews under the Law were keeping the Sabbath.
4. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).
5. Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.
6. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.
7. When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.
8. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.
9. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).
10. In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).
11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).
12. Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).
So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."
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