global or region-specific judgments in Revelation?

[Nihil Obstat]

Where are some places in Revelation that undeniably say that the end-time judgments (seals, trumpets, and bowls) will be global in their expanse? I'm actually having a hard time finding some. Any more, they seem to me to be region-specific. I'm totally open to (and eager for) your verses, supporting verses, thoughts, and comments. I won't be debating anything - just thankful for your input.

- Astro

[JesusMySavior]

Jesus speaks of a mighty earthquake in Matthew, saying that whoever is in "Judea" to flee to the mountains. Although this could have meant AD 70.

I don't know any verses from Revelation that are specific; it's mainly against rebellious men who are lost for eternity by receiving the mark.

[quiet dove]

astro, I understand it to be all the earth from the following verses. I cut some of them down to save space, I know you are familiar with them, but these to me say, all over.

Rev 6:4 ..... to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; .....

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— ....8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

Rev 17:15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Rev 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."

Rev 18:23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

[Bible2]

astrongerthanhe posted in message #1 of this thread:

Where are some places in Revelation that undeniably say that the
end-time judgments (seals, trumpets, and bowls) will be global in
their expanse?

Greetings.

Note that the first four seals (Revelation 6:1-8) can't be judgments
from God because at the fifth seal the martyrs in heaven are asking
God when he is going to start his judgment on the earth (Revelation
6:9-11). The first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) could be a good thing from
God which will be global in scope; it could represent the gospel of
Christ reaching all nations before the tribulation begins (Matthew
24:14). The second through fourth seals (Revelation 6:3-8) could be
a man-made nuclear war which will begin the tribulation, which war,
with its natural aftermath of famine and epidemics, may not be
global in scope insofar as it will end up causing the death of one-
fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8), not the whole world. The "great
sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4b) could be Israel's nuclear
weapons. The fifth seal isn't God's judgment, but the latter part of
the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11b) does refer to a global persecution
in which some Christians will be killed by evil people (Matthew
24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

The sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) may not be God's judgment, for
the people quoted in Revelation 6:17 could be just as mistaken as
Job was in Job 19:11, thinking that what was happening to him was
God's wrath instead of Satan's wrath. Satan can cause natural
disasters with permission from God (Job 1:19). The sixth seal could
be a massive volcanic eruption (such as of the Yellowstone Caldera)
triggered by Satan with permission from God. The sixth seal will have
a global scope in that it will trigger earthquakes around the world
which will move every island and mountain on the earth at least a
short distance (Revelation 6:14b), and which will terrify everyone on
the earth (Revelation 6:15).

The seven trumpets which could come out of the seventh seal
(Revelation 8:1-2) may not be God's judgment, nor need they be
global in scope, insofar as the first six trumpets could be the work of
Satan destroying one-third of things on the earth (Revelation
8:7-9:21) with God's permission, just as Satan causes one-third of
the angels to be cast down to the earth (Revelation 12:4,9).

The seven vials (or bowls) at the end of the tribulation (Revelation
16:1) will be God's judgment (Revelation 16:5-7) and they will be
global in scope as they will affect all worshippers of the Antichrist
worldwide (Revelation 16:2), and will affect the entire ocean
(Revelation 16:3), and all fresh water sources (Revelation 16:4),
and the sunlight reaching the earth (Revelation 16:8), and the
Antichrist's worldwide kingdom (Revelation 16:10, cf. 13:7-8), and
all the armies of the earth (Revelation 16:14), and every island and
mountain on the earth (Revelation 16:20).

[vinsight4u8]

What about the first five trumpets are on Israel, then the 6th one is the great tribulation (after the woman Israel flees to the wilderness)?

Rev. 8:8
"And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea..."

Rev. 14:14
"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion..."

[vinsight4u8]

Seals 1-3 are about the land of Iraq. Moses put in song the end days of Israel. Deuteronomy tells how a nation is sealed that will be the enemy of Israel. The word "earth" in the 2nd seal can also mean country. Peace is taken from one nation. The first seal builds the nation, but other seals see it start to fall apart, till the "hurt not the oil and the wine" part. This wording reveals a nation coming back strong.
The trumpets don't start till the 4th seal rider.

summary
1st seal - the nation of the beast begins to start up
2nd seal - take peace from that land
3rd seal - famine in the land will end
/an enemy no longer eats her food
4th seal - man of sin begins to rule Iraq
5th seal - martyrs wait till the last martyr for Jesus Christ gets slain
6th seal - end of trib signs
Rev. 7 - "And after these things I saw..."
John begins to tell his readers of a whole new picture of events that will not link right up with the end of the 6th seal opening message.
Before John sees the 7th seal, he will get taken to where the great tribulation ends and men are inside the temple.
Rev. 13 shows the beast will be given power over "all kindreds, and tongues, nations".

[Nihil Obstat]

Here's a list of the verses that sound global:

3:10
6:4
6:8
6:13, 14, 15
7:9 w/ 14
8:5
8:7
8:13
9:4
9:15, 18, 20
10:11
11:6, 10, 18
12:12
13:3, 7, 8
13:12, 14, 16
14:6-7, 8
14:15-16, 18-20
15:4
16:1, 8
16:14
16:18-21

Even after all that, I'm still thinking that these could be regional judgments. Any thoughts on those?

[markedward]

One basic thing to keep in mind, though it isn't always the case, is that the ancient understanding of "the world" or even "the whole world" didn't always literally referred to every single square inch or every single living person or thing on planet Earth. A very simple example of this is found in the opening chapters of Luke's gospel, in which the Roman emperor is described as taking a census of "the whole world". The original Greek word, while it meant "the world" or "the whole world", didn't inherently refer to the entire planet. As should be obvious in this case, "the whole world" merely refers to the entirety of "the Roman world", or "the known world". The Roman emperors had no sovereignty into the eastern world, such as India or China, and hardly extended southward into Africa, and because of Germanic tribes they had a hard time reaching into even northern Europe. Let alone they never reached the Americas. Obviously, "the whole world" in the census Luke describes is not the literal entirety of the planet.

Paul claimed that the gospel had been preached to "every creature under heaven". Still, we know it had not yet reached America, at the least, and probably China and Japan, by the time he wrote that. He makes a few other similar statements that "all throughout the world" the gospel had been preached. A contemporary (non-canon) Christian writer also claimed that Paul had reached "the ends of the earth" when referring to his Spanish expedition. (Is it possible, then, that Paul actually made it to Spain as he intended?)

Even other first-century, non-Christian writers understood phrases such as "the whole world" to refer not to the entire planet, but the entire "world" of their own civilization.

The point is, even Scriptural phrases like "the whole world" or even "every nation, tongue, tribe" don't always encompass the entirety of the planet like we, in our present time, use such phrasing. Some may argue with this all they want, but the Scriptural and non-Scriptural usage of such phrases during the first-century is irrefutable. It is how it is.

[Nihil Obstat]

Excellent post, Mark. This is exactly the thing that I'm wrestling with right now. Always great to hear from you (whether we agree or disagree)!

[Searcher1]

Personally I see the trump judgments and the bowls of wrath to be regional- Middle East. Seas of the middle east, etc. But see some things that require modern weaponry to be involved in it.

God bless
Norma

[markedward]

But see some things that require modern weaponry to be involved in it.

Assuming (a) the judgments seen are to be understood in an absolutely literal sense, and (b) that they're not miraculous in nature, if (a) is true.

[ross3421]

Where are some places in Revelation that undeniably say that the end-time judgments (seals, trumpets, and bowls) will be global in their expanse? I'm actually having a hard time finding some. Any more, they seem to me to be region-specific. I'm totally open to (and eager for) your verses, supporting verses, thoughts, and comments. I won't be debating anything - just thankful for your input.

- Astro

They will affect the whole world.


Now the key is to understand what this whole world will look like when these plaques are unleashed upon the world.

Babylon located in the midst of a wilderness ie desolate

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Babylon rises up out of the ashes and is in the midst of a desolate world. This city offers hope to all the inhabinants remaining upon the earth. The remaining inhabinants will migrate to this city for survival for it's food ect....and a king claiming to be the most high.


So, though the plaques affect the whole world, the whole world's population will be regionally located around this city.


Mark

[Bible2]

vinsight4u8 posted in message #5 of this thread:

What about the first five trumpets are on Israel

Greetings.

Note that the first five trumpets could affect large areas of the
earth, so that one-third of the trees on the earth will be burned,
and all the grass on the earth will be burned (Revelation 8:7). One-
third of the sea will be turned to blood, one-third of sea-life will die,
and one-third of ships will be destroyed (Revelation 8:8-9). One-
third of freshwater sources will be poisoned (Revelation 8:10-11).
The light from the sun, moon, and stars will be blocked so that it
doesn't reach the earth during one-third of the day and night
(Revelation 8:12). Demonic locusts will come up from the bottomless
pit and sting the inhabitants of the earth for five months (Revelation
8:13-9:11). Demonic horsemen will kill one-third of the inhabitants of
the earth (Revelation 8:13, 9:12-21).

[Bible2]

vinsight4u8 posted in message #6 of this thread:

Seals 1-3 are about the land of Iraq.

Note that seals 1-3 could involve more than just Iraq. The first seal
could represent the gospel of Christ reaching all nations before the
tribulation begins (Matthew 24:14). The war of seal 2 which will
begin the tribulation could be started by an Iraqi Baathist General
attacking Israel (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew
word translated as "daughter" is "bath") with a gigantic Iraqi Army
supported by the Syrian Army and Iranian long-range missiles.
Israel could retaliate with its nuclear weapons against Iraq, Syria,
and Iran, and the radioactive fallout could come down on hugely-
populated South Asia, so that the war and its aftermath of famine
and epidemics could result in the death of one-fourth of the world
(Revelation 6:4-8).

vinsight4u8 posted in message #6 of this thread:

The trumpets don't start till the 4th seal rider.

The trumpets could not start until after the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1-2,7).

vinsight4u8 posted in message #6 of this thread:

6th seal - end of trib signs

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be only the end of the first
stage of the tribulation.

vinsight4u8 posted in message #6 of this thread:

Rev. 7 - "And after these things I saw..."
John begins to tell his readers of a whole new picture of events that
will not link right up with the end of the 6th seal opening message.

Revelation 7 could occur after the 6th seal and before the 7th seal
(Revelation 8).

[Bible2]

astrongerthanhe posted in message #7 of this thread:

Here's a list of the verses that sound global:

3:10
6:4
6:8
6:13, 14, 15
7:9 w/ 14
8:5
8:7
8:13
9:4
9:15, 18, 20
10:11
11:6, 10, 18
12:12
13:3, 7, 8
13:12, 14, 16
14:6-7, 8
14:15-16, 18-20
15:4
16:1, 8
16:14
16:18-21

Even after all that, I'm still thinking that these could be regional
judgments. Any thoughts on those?

Greetings.

Revelation 3:10 was addressing a first-century local church
congregation in one city in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation
1:11) about a first-century persecution which came upon all the
Roman world, and in which another first-century local church
congregation in another city in the Roman province of "Asia" had
to suffer and die (Revelation 2:10).

The rest of the verses listed refer to "things which must be hereafter"
(Revelation 4:1b), and which have never been fulfilled. They could
show that the coming tribulation will affect the whole world, as we
now use that term, and not just one region of the world.