Christians, Beware of Cults

[Alaska]

Specifically are works necessary to salvation or the natural product of salvation?

When the term 'salvation' has two meanings, we should expect differences as long as the two parties discussing it are talking over each other, the one assuming that the other's meaning of "salvation" is the same as theirs.

To avoid the confusion, the two meanings should be identified and the user of their respective definition should specify what they are talking about so others are clear on where they are coming from.

[Placing the number (1) after the use of the word 'salvation', 'saved', 'save' etc will indicate the author is referring to definition 1. Placing a (2) after those words will be understood that the author is referring to definition 2.]

Definition 1) that state of having come to realize that the Bible is true concerning Jesus dying for our sins, at which time in accepting that, and desiring to have forgiveness, the person is immediately saved by virtue of that faith, nothing else being required. Repentance, baptism or any other work (besides the work or action of believing) is then understood to be works following salvation and not works required for salvation. This is often synonymous with eternal security (once saved always saved) so that even if the person is a thief at the time of their death, or whatever, they will still inherit eternal life because they have believed.

Definition 2) After having understood that Jesus died for their sins and that he requires things from the believer in order to enter into that state of being saved; the believer obeys those things and finds the promise true that they do in fact have a born again experience and are a new creature, having been changed by the power of regeneration by the Holy Ghost. Being saved here is synonymous with being changed and yielding to God and not being like they were before becoming saved.
This is diametrically opposed to eternal security; understanding that being saved is a present tense use, with the ultimate state of inheriting an incorruptible body like the angels, dependant on if we endure to the end. That is, if we allow the Holy Spirit to continue to have his way til death and not rebell and fall, let's say into being a thief up to our death in the end, under which situation we will not be saved in the end even though at one time we had been saved.
Thieves, will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Like adulterers or murderers or idolaters etc.

So back to the question at the top of the page:

Specifically are works necessary to salvation or the natural product of salvation?

If this author means salvation (1), then of course, under that understanding of being saved, then works are the natural product of salvation and only the work of believing is "necessary to salvation", all other following works having nothing to do with either acquiring or losing it.

If I read the above question with my understanding of salvation as definition (2), then works, repentance and baptizm and receiving the Holy Spirit are necessary for salvation AND works following after being saved are also the natural product of salvation.

[notuptome]

When the term 'salvation' has two meanings, we should expect differences as long as the two parties discussing it are talking over each other, the one assuming that the other's meaning of "salvation" is the same as theirs.

To avoid the confusion, the two meanings should be identified and the user of their respective definition should specify what they are talking about so others are clear on where they are coming from.

[Placing the number (1) after the use of the word 'salvation', 'saved', 'save' etc will indicate the author is referring to definition 1. Placing a (2) after those words will be understood that the author is referring to definition 2.]

Definition 1) that state of having come to realize that the Bible is true concerning Jesus dying for our sins, at which time in accepting that, and desiring to have forgiveness, the person is immediately saved by virtue of that faith, nothing else being required. Repentance, baptism or any other work (besides the work or action of believing) is then understood to be works following salvation and not works required for salvation. This is often synonymous with eternal security (once saved always saved) so that even if the person is a thief at the time of their death, or whatever, they will still inherit eternal life because they have believed.

Definition 2) After having understood that Jesus died for their sins and that he requires things from the believer in order to enter into that state of being saved; the believer obeys those things and finds the promise true that they do in fact have a born again experience and are a new creature, having been changed by the power of regeneration by the Holy Ghost. Being saved here is synonymous with being changed and yielding to God and not being like they were before becoming saved.
This is diametrically opposed to eternal security; understanding that being saved is a present tense use, with the ultimate state of inheriting an incorruptible body like the angels, dependant on if we endure to the end. That is, if we allow the Holy Spirit to continue to have his way til death and not rebell and fall, let's say into being a thief up to our death in the end, under which situation we will not be saved in the end even though at one time we had been saved.
Thieves, will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Like adulterers or murders or idolaters etc.

So back to the question at the top of the page:

If this author means salvation (1), then of course, under that understanding of being saved, then works are the natural product of salvation and only the work of believing is "necessary to salvation", all other following works having nothing to do with either acquiring or losing it.

If I read the above question with my understanding of salvation as definition (2), then works, repentance and baptizm and receiving the Holy Spirit are necessary for salvation AND works following after being saved are also the natural product of salvation.

What do you make of Romans 11:6 ..if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

I realize that Paul did not have the benefit of your carefully crafted definitions one and two. But I suppose he did the best he could under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

As long as works are part of your formula for salvation you will never have eternal security. I do not know how you can sleep at night. If you sin and lose your salvation according to Hebrews 6:6 you cannot be saved a second time. That is not the peace Jesus promised to them who trust in Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Alaska]

What do you make of Romans 11:6 ..if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

If there is anyone sincerely desiring to see how this verse, along with the section in Rom. 4, and at least one other similar reference, are rightly divided, to support that by works a man is justified/saved (2), and not by faith only, I will be honoured in providing a common sensical, in-context
explanation where Paul is coming from in making those statements.

[Alaska]

Seeing it impossible for Paul and James to have been in disagreement, any interpretation of what Paul wrote that contradicts James is obviously a wrong interpretation.
James is referring to the very issue of salvation (2) in verse 14.
His statement in verse 24 is part of his conclusion and can be used as representing his conclusion in a nutshell. The question can faith save (2) without works is answered with a resounding NO.
Being justified and being saved (2) are synonymous.
James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[notuptome]

Seeing it impossible for Paul and James to have been in disagreement, any interpretation of what Paul wrote that contradicts James is obviously a wrong interpretation.
James is referring to the very issue of salvation (2) in verse 14.
His statement in verse 24 is part of his conclusion and can be used as representing his conclusion in a nutshell. The question can faith save (2) without works is answered with a resounding NO.
Being justified and being saved (2) are synonymous.
James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Are you saying that we should prefer James over Paul? Paul as a scholar certainly has superior credentials to James. I suggest that both are of equal value as apostles and to imply that one must see Pauls writings through James' writings is odd. Why not view James' writings through what Paul has written? Or what of Luke? Or Peter?

We are to avoid sectarianism.

We must consider all of scripture in harmony with itself if we are to arrive at the proper understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Alaska]

Are you saying that we should prefer James over Paul?

No, just understand Paul so that he isn't in direct contradiction to James.

But let us not, the two of us, discuss this. We have already spent a lot of time in other threads on the same topic. It would be necessary to start another thread discussing the root cause of the disagreement and focus on basic definitions of words.
So let's agree to disagree, knowing that there is no common ground on even basic understandings of words necessary to carry on a discussion.

[Wintermute]

The way I understand the faith/works relationship is with an analogy.

Say you have somebody in prison for a terrible crime, for life. But, the governor pardons this person. The individual accepts the pardon with thanks and humility and walks free. Nothing he does, no merits at all, in prison or as a freeman, count for getting him out of prison. Being good for the rest of his life doesn't mean anything for getting him out, it is all because of the governor. By not committing more crime, this would never have gotten him out of prison. However, if he decides that he is going to walk free only to go back to the life of crime that got him in prison in the first place, then the pardon of the governor is of no effect.

Therefore faith without works is dead, there is no longer a sacrifice for sin.