Can We Legislate Morality?

[ZAB]

My father-in-law is a Christian judge and is very concerned with trying to "legislate morality". This is a hot-topic today, especially with the Proposition 8 issues (gay marriage).

My question is this: Can we legislate righteousness? We can sure try to, but will legislated morality stick?

Basically, 2 popular positions are as follows:

(1) Those in favor of legislating morality say that to believe morality cannot be legislated is to betray an ignorance of what laws really are. All laws declare one behavior right and one behavior wrong, which is the very definition of morality. To legislate an anti-abortion law is to simply construct moral guidelines; the hearts of people may never be changed but at least society will not be "barbaric". In other words, the purpose of having laws that prohibit abortion would not be to convince people that abortion is wrong (though they would, eventually, like the laws against slavery, gradually change public opinion). The purpose would be to save innocent human lives. But, is it the Christian's duty to lawfully persuade people that abortion is wrong? What about nations who weren't founded on Judeo-Christian ethics?

(2) Those who ignore the decreasing morals of society seem to focus on a "new government" (Isaiah 9:7), that will be instituted in the ages to come (Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem). They would argue, "why bother striving to make citizens lawfully moral? This whole thing is going to crash and burn anyway!" This point of view would argue that while moral laws do establish the boundaries of our civilization, we are not of this world. We may be in it temporarily, but we are not of it (Jn 18:36). We are part of a coming kingdom, and simply pilgrims in this earth (Heb 11:13; 1 Pet 2:11). But do we have a righteous part to play in our current governmental systems? Or are we to simply wait this thing out?

I look forward to your responses.
Blessings,
Z

[Reynolds357]

My father-in-law is a Christian judge and is very concerned with trying to "legislate morality". This is a hot-topic today, especially with the Proposition 8 issues (gay marriage).

My question is this: Can we legislate righteousness? We can sure try to, but will legislated morality stick?

Basically, 2 popular positions are as follows:

(1) Those in favor of legislating morality say that to believe morality cannot be legislated is to betray an ignorance of what laws really are. All laws declare one behavior right and one behavior wrong, which is the very definition of morality. To legislate an anti-abortion law is to simply construct moral guidelines; the hearts of people may never be changed but at least society will not be "barbaric". In other words, the purpose of having laws that prohibit abortion would not be to convince people that abortion is wrong (though they would, eventually, like the laws against slavery, gradually change public opinion). The purpose would be to save innocent human lives. But, is it the Christian's duty to lawfully persuade people that abortion is wrong? What about nations who weren't founded on Judeo-Christian ethics?

(2) Those who ignore the decreasing morals of society seem to focus on a "new government" (Isaiah 9:7), that will be instituted in the ages to come (Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem). They would argue, "why bother striving to make citizens lawfully moral? This whole thing is going to crash and burn anyway!" This point of view would argue that while moral laws do establish the boundaries of our civilization, we are not of this world. We may be in it temporarily, but we are not of it (Jn 18:36). We are part of a coming kingdom, and simply pilgrims in this earth (Heb 11:13; 1 Pet 2:11). But do we have a righteous part to play in our current governmental systems? Or are we to simply wait this thing out?

I look forward to your responses.
Blessings,
Z

Every law we have in our nation is legislated morality. Even traffic laws are legislated morality.

[ZAB]

Every law we have in our nation is legislated morality. Even traffic laws are legislated morality.

Yes, but I think civil laws differ from moral laws. By instituting traffic laws, we aren't trying to alter someone's viewpoints or morals. We're simply trying to have order. Morality is different. Can legislation that prohibits gay marriage eventually convince people that homosexuality is wrong? And if not, why make such legislation? Is it for the same order in society that traffic laws create? The other side would say homosexuality does not create disorder, which, of course, could be argued too.



p.s. that's a big watermelon!

[L'Ange]

It just depends on how much one believes that there is an Almighty Creator and that He has communicated to us through Scriptures. If you believe the Torah is His writing, then it makes sense to have laws which conform to His Words as much as possible, for other courses will lead to disaster. That is basically what Soddom & Gomorrah & the book of Revelation, etc. etc. are warnings about.

I believe that obedience to Him and His Word brings blessings and that disobedience to Him brings curses, just as it is written, and that laws should be made accordingly. I realize this is becoming more and more of an unpopular opinion however.

As for me, on judgement day I want to be standing with His Word, not opposed to it. Mho.

[threebigrocks]

Do moral laws matter if the heart is immoral?

For example, our civil law says don't kill. How many people were murdered today?

[ZAB]

It just depends on how much one believes that there is an Almighty Creator and that He has communicated to us through Scriptures. If you believe the Torah is His writing, then it makes sense to have laws which conform to His Words as much as possible, for other courses will lead to disaster. That is basically what Soddom & Gomorrah & the book of Revelation, etc. etc. are warnings about.

I believe that obedience to Him and His Word brings blessings and that disobedience to Him brings curses, just as it is written, and that laws should be made accordingly. I realize this is becoming more and more of an unpopular opinion however.

As for me, on judgement day I want to be standing with His Word, not opposed to it. Mho.

Thankyou.
So you're saying that we are all personally responsible, but not socially responsible, right? And if we are somewhat socially responsible, to what degree does this responsibility extend? What about believers who live in heathen nations? Alot of the argument Christians have to support moral legislation is the fact that the USA's founders were Christians themselves.
What do you think?

[ZAB]

Do moral laws matter if the heart is immoral?

For example, our civil law says don't kill. How many people were murdered today?

Thanks, this is my point. We live in a fallen world. I don't necessarily think that righteous legislation can "create" a righteous attitude. Christian evangelism could do this undoubtedly, but could evangelism become so fervent and successful that it bleeds through into our social legislation?
And if so, should we strive for this, or, as I said in my OP, simply "wait it out" for the New and coming Kingdom?

[threebigrocks]

We strive to win people from eternal death to life in Christ. We will always have immorality, just as we will always have the poor and homeless and orphans.

Doubtful we could make such an impact as to turn this country around, but a whole bunch of eyebrows could certainly be raised.

[TrophyofGrace]

I think to try to seriously legislate morality is equivalent to this:

Laws don't change people's attitudes. If they don't like the (moral) laws now they make enough of a fuss to eventually get them changed. More laws aren't going to result in more morality but likely more opposition.

I think we'll be waiting it out, myself. That's not to say we bury our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on around us until Christ returns, of course.

[ZAB]

I think to try to seriously legislate morality is equivalent to this:

Laws don't change people's attitudes. If they don't like the (moral) laws now they make enough of a fuss to eventually get them changed. More laws aren't going to result in more morality but likely more opposition.

I think we'll be waiting it out, myself. That's not to say we bury our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on around us until Christ returns, of course.

Hi friend,
yes I think I agree with you. We are to shine as lights in this world, and if that bleeds out into our social legislation, then AMEN. But if not, then Jesus' holy and coming government will overthrow all evil. That poses a vital question, however: "should the degree and brightness of our "shining" be effectively impacting local governments?" Are we doing something wrong if it does not?

Bless you, Trophy of Grace

[L'Ange]

Do moral laws matter if the heart is immoral?

For example, our civil law says don't kill. How many people were murdered today?

How many people were not murdered today because there is a law against, and punishment for, murder?

[crawfish]

I don't think that legislating morality is necessarily a bad thing; however, the question is "whose morality"?

I have certainly met Christians who would enforce moral stances that I would not. Opinions vary wildly on what "moral" behavior is, even among Christians of a single denomination or group. What happens when those in power legislate morality as an attempt to control behavior?

Of course, I'm one who thinks the best government is the one that stays out of our lives as much as possible.

[Partaker of Christ]

When you say "can WE legislate" who is 'we'?

[threebigrocks]

How many people were not murdered today because there is a law against, and punishment for, murder?

Some I'm sure. But those were the ones convicted that it's wrong in their heart. They didn't want the consequences, be it jail time or execution. That's the worldly view. Doesn't mean the desire to do so wasn't in them, just means they showed enough restraint is all.

Yet as Christians we know to even have hate in your heart is good enough to be considered murder.

The civil laws of where we live don't mean that the majority, the one who doesn't murder, are moral people. We cannot see a man's heart. In the last days it says that it will be as it was in the days of Noah. In Noah's days it is said of man that their hearts were continually evil. Not some of the time, not most of the time - but continually, always, constant. As the heart is - so go goes (or has already gone) the body and mind.

Same could be said for the one who does or doesn't steal, to commit adultery or not, to lie or tell truth, to desire what doesn't belong to you or not. If you wanted to steal, wanted to be adulterous, wanted to lie or coveted someone elses stuff but didn't it's already passed the rationale in one's mind and settled in their heart.

[TrophyofGrace]

Hi friend,
yes I think I agree with you. We are to shine as lights in this world, and if that bleeds out into our social legislation, then AMEN. But if not, then Jesus' holy and coming government will overthrow all evil. That poses a vital question, however: "should the degree and brightness of our "shining" be effectively impacting local governments?" Are we doing something wrong if it does not?

Bless you, Trophy of Grace

Ideally we'd like to see our brightness and shining effectively impacting local governments but the true Christian mindset runs so counter-cultural anymore that I don't think we can have the impact we'd like to have. But again, that shouldn't mean that we become apathetic, either.

I forget where I first heard the following quote, but it's stuck with me since I first heard it:

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

God bless you, z alan bridges!