Why do unbelievers go to hell?

[Henry]

What is fair? God is not fair? God is just.

"Fair" is a human concept based on limited human perspective.

Can we understand the Bible from this limited human perspective then?

[RabbiKnife]

As Paul said, we know in part. Yes, we can understand in part; but no, we cannot have all knowledge in this world.

Our understanding is limited, but not so limited as to make us without hope.

[Henry]

No passages of scripture are irrelevant. However, if a small passage or two are misinterpretted into creating a view or doctrine that either conflicts with the rest of scripture, or is unsubstantiated by the scriptures, then you have a problem.

That's called 'reading into the scriptures'.

I agree and many christians are guilty of that. I include myself.

No scripture teach that Jesus was tormented or suffered persecution after dying on the cross in Hell.

I agree, but I will get to that later.

Please show us clear scripture where Jesus Himself was suffereing, and persecuted in a place of torment after He died on the cross.

Unfortunately, if there was a clear scripture, we would not be having this discussion.

Also...explain why you believe it is fair for Jesus to be persecuted in a place of torment following His death on the cross.

Because He paid the FULL price that unbelievers will have to suffer. If He did not pay the full price, believers would still need to pay part of it and we don't have to!!

What scriptures teach you this 'fairness' concept as well?

Studying the character of God lead me to believe that He is fair. Psalm 89:14 Study the meaning of justice and judgement.

I honestly want to know this. Does it make someone who believes and preaches this a heretic? If so, why?

[RabbiKnife]

As I have previously stated, the price of all sin is paid already.
Unbelievers do not go to hell to pay for sin.
They go to hell as God confirms their choice to be separate from Him.

[Henry]

As I have previously stated, the price of all sin is paid already.
Unbelievers do not go to hell to pay for sin.
They go to hell as God confirms their choice to be separate from Him.

I know that brother, but I am interested in the technicalities.

[RabbiKnife]

I know that brother, but I am interested in the technicalities.

Then you, my friend, are going to be one frustrated little critter, as that which you seek has not been revealed!!!

[Henry]

Then you, my friend, are going to be one frustrated little critter, as that which you seek has not been revealed!!!

I will not take my frustrations out on you guys, I promise. What does it mean to be made sin? Any idea?

[RabbiKnife]

I will not take my frustrations out on you guys, I promise. What does it mean to be made sin? Any idea?

I haven't checked the Greek in a while, but are you referring to the passage that says "He was made to be sin who knew no sin?"

I have heard preachers say that Jesus literally became sin. First, I'm not sure that Scripture teaches that; second, like you, who knows what that means?

The scapegoat is a pretty good picture; carrying, but not changing in form.

Jesus certainly did not cease being God while he bore my sin burden; and to actually be sin (whatever that is) seems to be antithetical to being God.

[Henry]

I haven't checked the Greek in a while, but are you referring to the passage that says "He was made to be sin who knew no sin?"

I have heard preachers say that Jesus literally became sin. First, I'm not sure that Scripture teaches that; second, like you, who knows what that means?

The scapegoat is a pretty good picture; carrying, but not changing in form.

Jesus certainly did not cease being God while he bore my sin burden; and to actually be sin (whatever that is) seems to be antithetical to being God.

I think that Jesus was on the cross as a man, because God cannot die. What is the big English word for that? Phillipians 2:7-8

[RabbiKnife]

I think that Jesus was on the cross as a man, because God cannot die. What is the big English word for that?

Can't-die-ability...see also "immortal".

Got your PM, Henry. I'll respond here unless I start going all heretical...

I don't think that we can ever separate the "God part" from the "human part" of Jesus. Scores of heresies over the years developed as a result of trying to just that.

I don't believe that we can say that Jesus took on a sin nature. I think Scripture is pretty clear that sin was imputed to Jesus. By comparison, we take on Christ's righteousness....we are not righteous in and of ourselves. When our physical bodies are transformed in the resurrection, only then do I believe that the sin nature issue will be finally eradicated.

[Henry]

Can't-die-ability...see also "immortal".

Thanks for the English lesson.

I don't think that we can ever separate the "God part" from the "human part" of Jesus. Scores of heresies over the years developed as a result of trying to just that.

If Jesus hung on the cross as God, He would have still hung there today. IMO for what it's worth.

I don't believe that we can say that Jesus took on a sin nature. I think Scripture is pretty clear that sin was imputed to Jesus. By comparison, we take on Christ's righteousness....we are not righteous in and of ourselves. When our physical bodies are transformed in the resurrection, only then do I believe that the sin nature issue will be finally eradicated.

Is that not just a matter of semantics? Made to be sin = sin nature and the righteousness of God = God's nature ???

[RabbiKnife]

Thanks for the English lesson.



If Jesus hung on the cross as God, He would have still hung there today. IMO for what it's worth.



Is that not just a matter of semantics? Made to be sin = sin nature and the righteousness of God = God's nature ???

I don't think so. "Made to be sin" could easily be interpreted "Made to take the place of sin", which is very different from "being in the same form and substance as sin". Having the "righteousness of God" imputed to us is not the same as being "in the same form and substance as God."

Question? "If Jesus hung on the cross as God, He would have still hung there today." Why? I don't follow...

[David Taylor]

Also...explain why you believe it is fair for Jesus to be persecuted in a place of torment following His death on the cross.

Because He paid the FULL price that unbelievers will have to suffer. If He did not pay the full price, believers would still need to pay part of it and we don't have to!!

All here would agree that Christ did pay the FULL price...however, Scripture teaches He did that on the cross.

You say yourself there is no scriptural evidence that Jesus suffered and was persecuted in a place of torment after the cross.

So why hold onto a view that Scripture doesn't teach, and that scriptures like the following provide a true and trustworthy rendering?

(Christ paid the price for sin in FULL with His death on the cross)

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight"

Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross"

Galatians 6:14 "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

The scriptures leave no doubt Henry, that it is by Christ's sacrificial death on the cross, not some unstated later post-death torment period in a fiery hell, bywhich all sins are paid and atoned for.

Does it make someone who believes and preaches this a heretic? If so, why?

I wouldn't want to say so. I would want to say, rather, that when someone who believes and preaches that, when they are presented with the truth of the Scriptures as you've been shown above (to the absence of the alternative speculation), that they would realize the truth, embrace it, and want to choose to turn from it. Realizing that no teaching or teacher that is unsupported by Scripture, and that comes into contradiction with scripture should be held.

Heretics, when presented with the truth, choose to remain in darkness, and continue their deceptive teachings. Christ's followers, though, when they see the light, they come into the Light, embrace it, and hold fast to it; rejecting all other false things of the world.

I pray that is what your choice will be Henry. To turn from bad teachings, and to embrace the truth that Scripture does give us.

As Paul instructed Timothy in all love and endearment, "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us."

[moonglow]

I will not take my frustrations out on you guys, I promise. What does it mean to be made sin? Any idea?

David and I already answered this with scripture...did you not understand our posts? This is I think the third time you have asked this after it was answered already...

RabbiKnife As I have previously stated, the price of all sin is paid already.
Unbelievers do not go to hell to pay for sin.
They go to hell as God confirms their choice to be separate from Him.

Part of hell is being punished for their sins though. Jesus has offered to pay for it..its a free gift to pay their debt, they refuse so they have to pay for it themselves.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/dic...postatic-union
Jesus used the word to designate the place of eternal torment (Matt. 5:22,29,30; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5). Sheol - A Hebrew word. It is the place of the dead, not necessarily the grave, but the place the dead go to. It is used of both the righteous (Psalm 16:10; 30:3; Isaiah 38:10) and the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job. 24:19; Psalm 9:17). Hell is a place of eternal fire (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 19:20). It was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) and will be the abode of the wicked (Rev. 22:8) and the fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4).

Originally Posted by Henry
Does it make someone who believes and preaches this a heretic? If so, why?

If people teach something that isn't in the bible they aren't teaching our faith....but another belief. There are tons of other beliefs...Islam, Hindus, Buddhism...we call ourselves Christians because we teach what is ONLY in the bible. We don't guess...that leads to false teachings and what is called Heresy:

http://www.carm.org/christianity/dic...postatic-union
Heresy

A doctrinal view that deviates from the truth, a false teaching. We are warned against it in Acts 20:29-32 and Phil. 3:2. Heresies include teachings that Jesus is not God and that the Holy Spirit is not a person (Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, The Way International), that men may become gods (Mormonism), that there is more than one God (Mormonism), that Jesus lost His divinity in hell and finished the atonement there, and that good works are necessary for salvation (all cults say this), to name a few.

When you call yourself a Christian you are saying you belief the bible is the Word of God and you believe what it says. Not what someone else says or what you thought of yourself.

[RabbiKnife]

We will have to disagree, moonglow. Jesus paid the debt, making a sacrifice once and for all. There is nothing left to pay.

Sin is an infinite offense to an infinite God. A finite human cannot pay the price. Jesus did.

Sinners don't go to hell to be punished or to pay, because they can't. They go because they don't want to be with God.