But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved?

[watchinginawe]

I don't count that as synergism at all... I see God working in a monergistic way, as I have stated many times over the years, that a man's salvation is for God, by God, of God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.

Well, it was your example that you kept challenging to be answered. So I figured you saw the food on the table as God 100% without the cooperation or will of man in any way to help put food on the table. I just wanted to see you state it without addressing the scripture I offered. So I suppose Paul was also just as one who beateth the air in commanding that one should not eat if he didn't work, because it would be God not being responsible for His 100% in your view, and wouldn't have anything to do with the man not working; the man simply complying with the master of the universe operating all things to the counsel of His will.

I thank God for who He is, and what He does in my life just as David does in Psalm 23...

That sounds like boasting to me. You give God more credit than a sinner as me. So that...

And if 'man cooperates with God' as you say, not wanting to offend, but I find that almost sinful, for God needing man's cooperation at all for His will to be done positions man as God's equal.

You lowly and humble person. Much humbler than I. Me, boasting to the brink of sin, thinking to seek and perform and cooperate with God's will, as if I could do anything contrary to His will. For me to think to be able to perform God's will, or not. And yet the consequence of what you have already stated is that my response and belief and manner of doctrine is not my own, but God's.

No man comes to God on His own, God always reaches out to man. He is the author, the giver, the creator, the sustainer, and the finisher of all things, and for all things He created for Himself and His glory...

I have no argument with that. God goes first. Always. Already has, already done. "For God so loved..." "But God commendeth His love toward us..." It is a done deal.

man does not and cannot 'cooperate' with God on his own, for sin keeps him in judgement. Christ came, and yet the world killed Him.... Nice cooperation, eh?

God chose a man in Abraham, a people as Israel, a nation, the church, and a people from every tongue and tribe.... all by qualification that God set as the bar, and not as any man qualified by any heritage, work or wisdom. As was quoted earlier and either over looked or dismissed, that it's God who does the choosing, it's God who has predestined and foreordained, and it's God who opens the eyes and the hearts of those who believe....

Well the text is full of warnings and things to heed regarding one believing and not believing and one doing and not doing. I'm not sure what to make of the whole of the Bible or the Gospel in the context that you make this all out to be. If all is by predestination and foreordination and by the force of His will, then what is done is done and it is pleasing to God. There isn't much we are going to settle in this thread and I am void of understanding on why you might think it possible to persuade anyone in this thread of your doctrine.

Proverbs 16:9 Man plans his ways, but the Lord directs His path.... Not Synergism. Pure Monergism with a twist; man thinks it's all himself, when in reality, God controls all things and even allows evil to be, yet is NOT EVIL Nor Responsible for Sin... Man is. Welcome to the deep end of the pool.

You have a wrong view in my opinion. Synergism isn't "man thinks it's all himself". You're just making that up. Your view constrains man to being a final control element of God. God's will is therefore not valueable to know or necessary to be declared. That makes everything that man does according to the will of God and thus not sinful except by arbitrary label. It really is this simple: Can man perform (or not) the will of God? Or is man always performing the will of God? You can whip up smoke and call it the deep end of the pool, but that deep end is simply where your doctrine doesn't meet with the example and purpose of scripture IMO.

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Now I don't know why God wrote it like that. Did God really wait to see if Moses was going to turn aside? Did God really wait to see if Abraham was intent on slaying Isaac? Did Jacob really wrestle with God and receive a blessing and a new name? Did God really wait to see if Israel would obey His commandments and serve Him? Did God really mean it when He said through Samuel that He would have established Saul's kingdom over Israel forever? I'm not going to quote the whole Bible here. Your view does not reconcile with how God portrays Himself and His interaction and expectation of man in the Bible.

All that being said, I enjoy discussing this with you as always. I am glad you are here and spend the time discussing these things and offering your insight. I disagree with your understanding and application of the will of God, but I respect your viewpoint.

God Bless!

[Sirus]

No... True faith is God-breathed, and that is what Paul states in Ephesians 2:8... look at the words, what is the it?

saved is the it and there is only one kind of faith
I do agree faith is God breathed.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

That's what I've been saying. We are created with faith to have faith.
It's is one of the most natural responses of man.

[Firstfruits]

So I'll take your response to the question as one who doesn't give God credit for the food on the table, or the work that brings the food, or anything that you have, for that's your work. So God leaves man alone and hopes that some will find Him.

Gottcha

You missed my reply.

Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace
You're stuck on the word force... Why?


Can you not give the credit and glory to God for saving you from eternal damnation?

God has all the credit, but he says that we must believe on his son Jesus in order for us to be saved.

We must believe.

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

So I'll take your response to the question as one who doesn't give God credit for the food on the table, or the work that brings the food, or anything that you have, for that's your work. So God leaves man alone and hopes that some will find Him.

Gottcha

I take it from your response that you do not know what the work of God is, if however you do then what is it?

Firstfruits

[Sirus]

Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen?

As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?

So you think there was a time when Christ did not know why He was here? Could you please elaborate on this from a Scriptural standpoint?

Sorry. I forgot about this and was reminded today.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

[Butch5]

Sorry. I forgot about this and was reminded today.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

I know the Scripture, I wanted you to elaborate on your understanding of it from a Scriptural standpoint. In other words, how did Christ go from knowing all that he did, to not knowing, to knowing all that He did again.

[Sirus]

He did it through relationship as was intended for Adam. Adam, the first man, failed. Jesus, just the second man, did not. Hence, man was reconciled to God by one man. The Son of man, the man Christ Jesus.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I take it from your response that you do not know what the work of God is, if however you do then what is it?

Firstfruits

All the good that happens is from God, and the bad is from sin. So applied, all the good I do is not me, but He who is in me... and the things I do that I shouldn't - are of my selfish heart in struggle...

So when I respond in Love, I've submit to His Spirit within me and it's He who eminates from me. If I respond in anger, it's my selfishness that 'wins' the moment....

Probably not the definition you wanted to see as the work of God, but this is how I see it throughout His word.


As a basis, I'd start with...

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


For His glory...


RbG

[Firstfruits]

All the good that happens is from God, and the bad is from sin. So applied, all the good I do is not me, but He who is in me... and the things I do that I shouldn't - are of my selfish heart in struggle...

So when I respond in Love, I've submit to His Spirit within me and it's He who eminates from me. If I respond in anger, it's my selfishness that 'wins' the moment....

Probably not the definition you wanted to see as the work of God, but this is how I see it throughout His word.


As a basis, I'd start with...

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


For His glory...


RbG

No disagreement there RBG,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Butch5]

He did it through relationship as was intended for Adam. Adam, the first man, failed. Jesus, just the second man, did not. Hence, man was reconciled to God by one man. The Son of man, the man Christ Jesus.

I fail to see how this answers the question.

[Beckrl]

This is how I understand those opening scriptures.(enduring unto the end, shall be saved)

Daniel 12:10

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Daniel 12:12

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The time of Daniel's great trouble in which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. That those should flee unto the mountains. Enduring unto the end of this great time of trouble.

We also see in Revelation in that many will be killed if they do not worship the image of the beast.

Revelation 13:15

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Then also many will fall away at this time, one reason maybe because of this time of trouble and the thought of dying if they don't worship the image.

There are many parallels with those that endures to the end, shall be saved. Chapter 12 of Revelation tells of a woman that feld into the wilderness and she is feed by God. This is seen as the children of God that flee into the mountains as Jesus had fortold them.

[Sirus]

I fail to see how this answers the question.

Then either you don't know what you asked or you fail to see how it was done through 'relationship'. Maybe you should rephrase the question?

[Redeemed by Grace]

This is how I understand those opening scriptures.(enduring unto the end, shall be saved)

Daniel 12:10


Daniel 12:12


The time of Daniel's great trouble in which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. That those should flee unto the mountains. Enduring unto the end of this great time of trouble.

We also see in Revelation in that many will be killed if they do not worship the image of the beast.

Revelation 13:15


Then also many will fall away at this time, one reason maybe because of this time of trouble and the thought of dying if they don't worship the image.

There are many parallels with those that endures to the end, shall be saved. Chapter 12 of Revelation tells of a woman that feld into the wilderness and she is feed by God. This is seen as the children of God that flee into the mountains as Jesus had fortold them.

I think you are heading down the right path... Amen.

[Firstfruits]

I think you are heading down the right path... Amen.

So does that not apply to all that belong to Christ?

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Beckrl]

So does that not apply to all that belong to Christ?

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi,Firstfruits
If I may answer that question, I do think it relates to all, Christ tells us to count the cost, But all so as it maybe some will endure tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword much more that others. Compare our time today from Nero's or the Crusades.

Christ spoke of this time of trouble that will come upon Judaea that the old testament also prophecied about, the time of tribulation will be like no other, and never will be again.

Matthew 24

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here in verse 22 it speaks of no flesh will be saved if not shortnened even the elected of God. That would include those that undestood and had fleed to the mountains. Note in verse 24 about if it were possible deceiving even the elect.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect