But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved?

[Sirus]

Simple enough, first look at the other translations, I only found "of" in the KJV, others say faith in Jesus Christ. However, the faith of Jesus Christ, is the gospel message. It would be like saying the faith of Buddha, which would be buddhism. What would Christ need to have faith in?

the faith of
is found 4x in the Greek and is why the kjb translators correctly stuck to the text these 4x. It does not mean "in" it means "of" -feminine and neutered in all their changes which is a result (of) not a cause (in).

Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 13:10 is of the saints not God so is not applicable to the discussion.

The other times the kjb translators used of and not in it is because the context demanded the faith to be of God not man.

Here's how I explained it in another thread......

See the verse in question?
See the red colored word "of" below?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The phrase is "the faith of the Son of God".
We live by "the faith of the Son of God".
Well how can His faith be ours? It can't. That's not what that means. What it means is this.....

His faith never failed. He was righteous. The sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.
Because of His faith we were baptized by the Spirit into His body, and therefore "In Him". So....
Because of His faith we were crucified when He was crucified.
Because of His faith we were buried when He was buried.
Because of His faith we were raised when He was raised.
Because of His faith we....
LIVE!
are complete
have all things pertaining to life and godliness
are justified sanctified redeemed and glorified
He said I am....I am...
"I AM the resurrection and the life!"
He did it all. (grace)
He gave it all. (grace)
He did what we couldn't do. How dare we say we do, not only what only He could do, but what only He did then gave to us freely (grace). We don't crucify anything. We just believe in the position ("in Christ") given to us and when we do we experience the life given to us by "the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (grace)

[RogerW]

the faith of
is found 4x in the Greek and is why the kjb translators correctly stuck to the text these 4x. It does not mean "in" it means "of" -feminine and neutered in all their changes which is a result (of) not a cause (in).

Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 13:10 is of the saints not God so is not applicable to the discussion.

The other times the kjb translators used of and not in it is because the context demanded the faith to be of God not man.

Here's how I explained it in another thread......

See the verse in question?
See the red colored word "of" below?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The phrase is "the faith of the Son of God".
We live by "the faith of the Son of God".
Well how can His faith be ours? It can't. That's not what that means. What it means is this.....

His faith never failed. He was righteous. The sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.
Because of His faith we were baptized by the Spirit into His body, and therefore "In Him". So....
Because of His faith we were crucified when He was crucified.
Because of His faith we were buried when He was buried.
Because of His faith we were raised when He was raised.
Because of His faith we....
LIVE!
are complete
have all things pertaining to life and godliness
are justified sanctified redeemed and glorified
He said I am....I am...
"I AM the resurrection and the life!"
He did it all. (grace)
He gave it all. (grace)
He did what we couldn't do. How dare we say we do, not only what only He could do, but what only He did then gave to us freely (grace). We don't crucify anything. We just believe in the position ("in Christ") given to us and when we do we experience the life given to us by "the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (grace)

Hi Sirus,

For the most part I agree, the KJV has it right. One point though, 'faith' is a fruit of the Spirit that we live in when we walk in the Spirit. What happens when we choose not to walk in the Spirit? Aren't we then walking in the sinful flesh?

This fruit [faith] is not of nature, nor flesh, but is the result of the indwelling Spirit and that which is produced by Him. We can take no credit for any good or good works that are in us, for these are all by His grace. His faith in us never fails!

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If we live by the Spirit of grace, we have been made alive to God by His power and presence, therefore we should walk daily by His help, assistance, influence and direction. We begin in the Spirit and we are sanctified daily by the Spirit of God. Salvation, beginning to end is of the Lord!

Many Blessings,
RW

[Sirus]

For the most part I agree, the KJV has it right. One point though, 'faith' is a fruit of the Spirit that we live in when we walk in the Spirit. What happens when we choose not to walk in the Spirit? Aren't we then walking in the sinful flesh?

No. We are not in sinful flesh (Ro 8:9) but we are in crucified flesh, the body of sin has been destroyed, we are dead -now are we sons of God. In other words if you sin it is the new man sinning not the old. The old was crucified and buried by Christ and you can't go back dig yourself up.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

This fruit [faith] is not of nature, nor flesh, but is the result of the indwelling Spirit and that which is produced by Him. We can take no credit for any good or good works that are in us, for these are all by His grace. His faith in us never fails!

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If we live by the Spirit of grace, we have been made alive to God by His power and presence, therefore we should walk daily by His help, assistance, influence and direction. We begin in the Spirit and we are sanctified daily by the Spirit of God. Salvation, beginning to end is of the Lord!

Again, there is only one kind of faith. Faith is faith and can be put in anything, but when faith is put in the complete and finished work of Christ (grace) it is effectual and produces fruit.

Galatians 5:22's faith is 'faithfulness' not to be confused with the existence of faith you were created with to put in Christ to be conformed to his image. We don't stop having faith God created us with and become robots with the addition of the Spirit.

JFB
faith — “faithfulness”; opposed to “heresies” [Bengel]. Alford refers to 1Co_13:7, “Believeth all things”: faith in the widest sense, toward God and man. “Trustfulness” [Conybeare and Howson].

Scofield
faith, meekness, temperance -- character in expression toward God.

Taken together, they present a moral portrait of Christ, and may be taken as the apostle's explanation of (Gal_2:20). "Not I, but Christ," and as a definition of "fruit" in (Joh_15:1-8). This character is possible because of the believer's vital union to Christ; (Joh_15:5); (1Co_12:12); (1Co_12:13); and is wholly the fruit of the Spirit in those believers who are yielded to Him. (Gal_5:22); (Gal_5:23).

ESV
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[Butch5]

the faith of
is found 4x in the Greek and is why the kjb translators correctly stuck to the text these 4x. It does not mean "in" it means "of" -feminine and neutered in all their changes which is a result (of) not a cause (in).

Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 13:10 is of the saints not God so is not applicable to the discussion.

The other times the kjb translators used of and not in it is because the context demanded the faith to be of God not man.

Here's how I explained it in another thread......

See the verse in question?
See the red colored word "of" below?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The phrase is "the faith of the Son of God".
We live by "the faith of the Son of God".
Well how can His faith be ours? It can't. That's not what that means. What it means is this.....

His faith never failed. He was righteous. The sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.
Because of His faith we were baptized by the Spirit into His body, and therefore "In Him". So....
Because of His faith we were crucified when He was crucified.
Because of His faith we were buried when He was buried.
Because of His faith we were raised when He was raised.
Because of His faith we....
LIVE!
are complete
have all things pertaining to life and godliness
are justified sanctified redeemed and glorified
He said I am....I am...
"I AM the resurrection and the life!"
He did it all. (grace)
He gave it all. (grace)
He did what we couldn't do. How dare we say we do, not only what only He could do, but what only He did then gave to us freely (grace). We don't crucify anything. We just believe in the position ("in Christ") given to us and when we do we experience the life given to us by "the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (grace)

I don't know why I am even bothering to post. You have given me the defintion of of the Greek word for "the" no "of". Is there are reason for this?

Sirus---Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

This is the Greek word "the" it has 24 different forms. The Greek word for "of" is "ek".

Sirus---Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Notice it says "the" faith, the Greek has the definite article. "The faith" refers to a particular faith, it is a noun. What is "the faith" of "the Son of God"? It is waht Jesus Preached. This is not speaking of an action of faith.


Acts 6:7 ( KJV )
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 13:8 ( KJV )
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Acts 14:22 ( KJV )
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5 ( KJV )
And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Acts 24:24 ( KJV )
And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Romans 1:5 ( KJV )
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 3:3 ( KJV )
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 4:16 ( KJV )
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

So, are we saved by Abraham's faith? We don't have to do anything because we are saved by the faith of Abraham? Does Abraham's faith give us eternal life? This is stated the same as Galatians 2:20. Or does this passage mean that those who have a faith like Abraham are saved? It can be read two ways, obviously it is the second that I spoke of. Likewise Galatians 2:20 can be read two ways. As we can see "the faith" is a specific" thing, not an act of showing faith.

Sirus---Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

I thought we couldn't earn faith?

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G4866. συναθλέω sunathleō; fut. sunathlō, from sun (G4862), together or together with and athleō (G118), to strive. To contend with someone, be on his side; only figuratively, to exert oneself with, to strive with or together, help, aid. With a dat. of the thing following, to strive together for (Phil. 1:27); with the dat. of person following, to strive or labor together with (Phil. 4:3).

In order to strive one must do somthing, one must labor for a cause. Given this definition and the context doesn't, striving for the Gospel fit with living according to the Gospel?

Sirus---Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Can an act have faith? Does the operation of God have faith? Please explain how an action can have faith.

The faith of the Son of God is the Gospel, the teaching of Christ. Can you please tell me what Christ would have faith in?

Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen?

[Sirus]

I don't know why I am even bothering to post. You have given me the defintion of of the Greek word for "the" no "of". Is there are reason for this?

Of course there is. You know I don't say things w/o reason or ask a question w/o already knowing the answer w/ scripture to back it up.

The Greek word for "of" is "ek".

Not in these four verses it's not. Stick to the verses being discussed, do not randomly choose via English trans to try and make a point scripture does not make.

Notice it says "the" faith, the Greek has the definite article. "The faith" refers to a particular faith, it is a noun. What is "the faith" of "the Son of God"? It is waht Jesus Preached. This is not speaking of an action of faith.

"the" is not in the Greek but translated into English by necessity.

Correct. There is but one type of faith.

Right, faith is not an action which is why it is not a work. Faith is one of our most natural responses from God's image, if not the most natural.

So, are we saved by Abraham's faith?

not by but of. See, you're missing it. There's only one type of faith.

thought we couldn't earn faith?

We can't. Phi 1:27 doesn't say we do. It states what we do for the faith -Christianity.

Can an act have faith? Does the operation of God have faith?

This faith is in the cross of Christ and Jesus as the sinless Lamb of God that takes away our sins. Because of this, the Spirit raised Him up.

The faith of the Son of God is the Gospel, the teaching of Christ.

True!

Can you please tell me what Christ would have faith in?

The Father!

Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen?

As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

[Firstfruits]

Is the following personal faith or God given faith?

Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

If we do not accept his word wil God make us to have faith/believe?

Firstfruits

[Redeemed by Grace]

Is the following personal faith or God given faith?

Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

If we do not accept his word wil God make us to have faith/believe?

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

Let me offer a response this way.


As you travel home from work, you stop at the store and pick up some nice food for dinner, maybe a nice salad, a steak or pasta, food that brings anticipation to eat. As you walk through your door, finish preparing your dinner, you sit down with your family to eat, what do you do next?

Do you not thank God and say a blessing or grace? If so, what do you thank Him for? For the food? For the work? For the home? For the car? Or do you say that I worked so hard that all I have is because of what I provided? Or do your see God's hand within you, leading you, directing you, providing for you as you live and is God not worthy of your praise and the glory and given credit to all that you are and all that you hope to be?

If you agree then, so way can’t He be your faith as well?

If God is behind what you have in life, and you work, why can't He purpose who you are in Christ, and you believe?????

[Butch5]

Sirus---Of course there is. You know I don't say things w/o reason or ask a question w/o already knowing the answer w/ scripture to back it up.

Then why did you post the definition of "the"?

Sirus---Not in these four verses it's not. Stick to the verses being discussed, do not randomly choose via English trans to try and make a point scripture does not make.

Which passages have I gone to? All I said was that the Greek word for "of" didn't appear in the passage. However, since it doesn't appear I am interested in hearing your explanation of why it was translated "of".

Sirus---"the" is not in the Greek but translated into English by necessity.

Sorry my friend but "the" is in the Greek and it refers to a specific faith.

20Χρι.στῷ συ.νε.σταύ.ρω.μαι· ζῶ δὲ οὐ.κέ.τι ἐ.γώ, ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐ.μοὶ Χρι.στός· ὃ δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρ.κί, ἐν πί.στει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱ.οῦ τοῦ
and /but now live in flesh in faith live the the Son the

θε.οῦ τοῦ ἀ.γα.πή.σαν.τός με καὶ πα.ρα.δόν.τος ἑ.αυ.τὸν ὑ.πὲρ ἐ.μοῦ.
God the loved me and delivered himself for me.

I underlined, faith which is singular, feminine, dative. The underlined "the" matches, it is also singular, feminine dative.

Sirus---Correct. There is but one type of faith.

Right, faith is not an action which is why it is not a work. Faith is one of our most natural responses from God's image, if not the most natural.

Faith is not a work?

John 6:28-29 ( KJV )
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

isn't believing faith?

Sirus---not by but of. See, you're missing it. There's only one type of faith.

I didn't miss anything, I stated it, you just didn't quoted it. You didn't answer my question. Are we saved by Abraham's faith? It is stated the same as it is in Galatians. If it is Christ's faith that saves then this passage says that it is Abraham's faith that saves.

Sirus---We can't. Phi 1:27 doesn't say we do. It states what we do for the faith -Christianity.

Thank you, that is the what I have been saying. "the faith" of the Son of God is Christianity.

Sirus---This faith is in the cross of Christ and Jesus as the sinless Lamb of God that takes away our sins. Because of this, the Spirit raised Him up.

So then it is faith in Christ and not the faith of Christ?

Sirus---The Father!

Why would He need to have faith in the Father?

Sirus---As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?

So you think there was a time when Christ did not know why He was here? Could you please elaborate on this from a Scriptural standpoint?

[Firstfruits]

Hi Ff,

Let me offer a response this way.


As you travel home from work, you stop at the store and pick up some nice food for dinner, maybe a nice salad, a steak or pasta, food that brings anticipation to eat. As you walk through your door, finish preparing your dinner, you sit down with your family to eat, what do you do next?

Do you not thank God and say a blessing or grace? If so, what do you thank Him for? For the food? For the work? For the home? For the car? Or do you say that I worked so hard that all I have is because of what I provided? Or do your see God's hand within you, leading you, directing you, providing for you as you live and is God not worthy of your praise and the glory and given credit to all that you are and all that you hope to be?

If you agree then, so way can’t He be your faith as well?

If God is behind what you have in life, and you work, why can't He purpose who you are in Christ, and you believe?????

God will not make you believe that he is.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi Ff,

Let me offer a response this way.


As you travel home from work, you stop at the store and pick up some nice food for dinner, maybe a nice salad, a steak or pasta, food that brings anticipation to eat. As you walk through your door, finish preparing your dinner, you sit down with your family to eat, what do you do next?

Do you not thank God and say a blessing or grace? If so, what do you thank Him for? For the food? For the work? For the home? For the car? Or do you say that I worked so hard that all I have is because of what I provided? Or do your see God's hand within you, leading you, directing you, providing for you as you live and is God not worthy of your praise and the glory and given credit to all that you are and all that you hope to be?

If you agree then, so way can’t He be your faith as well?

If God is behind what you have in life, and you work, why can't He purpose who you are in Christ, and you believe?????

God will not make you believe that he is.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

So what you are saying is that God doesn't work in your heart to believe in Him?

[Sirus]

If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...- for election of some and damnation to the rest.

We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.

[BroRog]

With regards to the following scriptures if those that endure until the end are alraedy saved why then does Jesus say that they shall be saved or that they should endure to the end?

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

With the understanding that the disciples belonged to Christ why did they say that they will be saved.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Why should we wait until the end?

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

These verses are descriptive, not prescriptive.

[Redeemed by Grace]

If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

- for election of some and damnation to the rest.

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.

What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

For His Glory...

RbG

[Sirus]

If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

That's the point. It doesn't say the Spirit draws. It says the Father draws and the context tells us that is by the work of God, the gospel, to believe in the one the Father sent (found 8x in the chapter). His body -flesh and blood -Christ and Him crucified.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

- for election of some and damnation to the rest.

Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Romans 9 is Christ coming in the flesh through Israel (v5) to be the Savior for whosoever believeth. The will and purpose of God that could not be resisted (stopped) is this mystery of His will hidden from the foundation of the world, now revealed -the gospel, not acceptance of the gospel.
If you'd like to learn about the potter and clay relationship go read Jeremiah 18.

It doesn't make any sense to have mercy on some if His will is to have mercy on all.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.

What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

He was talking to the disciples not you!

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

"that your fruit would remain" would be the church

One responds by the faith will and volition he was created with as a man in the image of God for the purpose of having an relationship with God and the other does not. It's that simple. Did Adam not respond because he was not chosen? Then we don't respond because we are.

Saul Peter and John were chosen specifically the the purpose of God -Christ in the flesh as Savior -gospel. The rock the church is built on. Saul was knocked off his horse and saw Jesus. Peter and John walked with Him for 3.5 years. There's no comparison to us. We believe having not seen. Is everyone a Job, Saul (Paul)? No! Why is everything in scripture applied to all when theologically convenient except when it is not theologically convenient?

[Butch5]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.





Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.




What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

For His Glory...

RbG

If you look at those verses in context you will find that they do not support your claim. John 6 speaks of the Jews being chosen to bring the gospel, while the rest were blinded. Paul says that blindness in part has come to Israel. So only those chosen could come during Jesus earthly ministry.

Ronna 3 speaks of righteousness in it's ultImate form. Only God is truely righteous. However, God does consider some men rigtheous.

Romans 9 speakes of the Jews

John 15 speaks of the apostles, they were chosen to bring the gospel to the world.