But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved?

[theBelovedDisciple]

Did Jesus not say He would draw all men to Himself (John 12:32)? Why are you neglecting to mention that some resist it?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Eric, I appreciate the Dialogue.. and Greetings to you...


If HE BE LIFTED UP, Eric.. He would draw all men to Himself.. this pointing to the Cross...

Yes Eric.. some resist the Calling of God.. they resist the Holy Ghost... they are stiffnecked... as ye fathers did.. so do ye...


but what of those that are called? yet not Chosen?

many are called............ but Few Chosen?

God called them.. they responded..... yet they were not Chosen....

and this proven by the Words of Jesus Himself.. many will stand before Him.. pleading they did all these great things in His name... yet He never 'knew' them........ depart from me ye that work inquity...

did they 'resist' the Holy Ghost? for if they resisted the Holy Ghost.. then they would of not responded to the 'call'...

But.. Jesus said.. many are Called .. yet Few are Chosen...


where is your emphasis as far as Salvation ?

mans choice or God's Choice??

Does God not 'know' His Own.. Does not He care for His Own Elect?

God "knows' His Own Eric.. and His Own 'know' that Salvation begins with Him and Ends with Him... its a God centered Salvation..

not a salvation based on man.. with the emphasis based on him...

and It all points back to the Cross Eric... its such a stumbling block and offense to so many..
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Man says.. the issues of salvation belong ot me... YES I CAN>>

but you see..

God says... No you can't... the Issues of Salvation belong to God Himself.. and if it didn't .. the Cross would of never happened...

The Issues of Salvation belong to the One who Died a physcial death on that bloody tree... The Belong to HIm alone.. and He is the One who is Alive today.... Seated at the Right Hand of the Power of God..

the question arises...... Do you 'know' Him today? not a knowledge of Him.. based on theoogical doctrinal letters put together by men in religion...


but do you "KNOW" Him..


Greetings to you .. Have a Great Week!

[John146]

Eric, I appreciate the Dialogue.. and Greetings to you...


If HE BE LIFTED UP, Eric.. He would draw all men to Himself.. this pointing to the Cross...

Yes Eric.. some resist the Calling of God.. they resist the Holy Ghost... they are stiffnecked... as ye fathers did.. so do ye...


but what of those that are called? yet not Chosen?

many are called............ but Few Chosen?

God called them.. they responded..... yet they were not Chosen....

Some respond by willingly refusing to accept the invitation.

Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

and this proven by the Words of Jesus Himself.. many will stand before Him.. pleading they did all these great things in His name... yet He never 'knew' them........ depart from me ye that work inquity...

did they 'resist' the Holy Ghost? for if they resisted the Holy Ghost.. then they would of not responded to the 'call'...

What about those who "would not come"?

But.. Jesus said.. many are Called .. yet Few are Chosen...


where is your emphasis as far as Salvation ?

mans choice or God's Choice??

It was God's work and it is God's offer and man is responsible to choose to accept it or not.

Does God not 'know' His Own.. Does not He care for His Own Elect?

God "knows' His Own Eric.. and His Own 'know' that Salvation begins with Him and Ends with Him... its a God centered Salvation..

Without God's grace that He showed by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) there would be no salvation. God did all the work but that does not mean man is not responsible to repent and believe.

not a salvation based on man.. with the emphasis based on him...

Salvation is based on God, but we cannot ignore that He holds men responsible to repent and put their faith in His Son.

and It all points back to the Cross Eric... its such a stumbling block and offense to so many..
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Man says.. the issues of salvation belong ot me... YES I CAN>>

By humbling yourself and putting your faith in Christ it does not mean you are saving yourself or trying to take credit for salvation. Instead, it's the opposite. You are acknowledging that you can't save yourself and need Jesus Christ to save you.

but you see..

God says... No you can't... the Issues of Salvation belong to God Himself.. and if it didn't .. the Cross would of never happened...

The Issues of Salvation belong to the One who Died a physcial death on that bloody tree... The Belong to HIm alone.. and He is the One who is Alive today.... Seated at the Right Hand of the Power of God..

the question arises...... Do you 'know' Him today? not a knowledge of Him.. based on theoogical doctrinal letters put together by men in religion...


but do you "KNOW" Him..

Of course. And how does one get to know Him? Only by repenting of one's sins and putting one's faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Matthew 16
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

[Butch5]

Ff,

We keep traveling father and father away from the point, that unless God births a believer, no one can seek, no one can find. Those that do seek, those that do find, are those for whom God has birthed to believe.

Can you show me where Scripture teaches that one must be born before they can seek?

[Butch5]

If a person is dead in trespasses and sins... he/she is unregenreate... unable to love God.. or 'know' who He is... unable to 'seek'.. or 'know' the Truth... but God in His Mercy 'starts' the Process of Salvation in Heaven.. by starting to Draw that sinner to Himself.. by the Holy Ghost.. the Spirit draws.. and helps the convert.. because he/she in an unregenerate state can't do it.... God has to 'birth' and He uses the Holy Ghost.. who is God.. to help that sinner come to the Revelation of who God is... Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh.. Jesus is the Author of Salvation and He is the Finisher of the Elect's Faith...

you can 'seek' in the Scripture all you want.. seek and look .. memorize, divulge, interpret.. all those things.. yet if God is not behind the 'drawing' and 'illumination'.. then its really nothing but a 'dry' Logos.. no life.. but just words...

and Jesus told the Religous Elite of His Day...

You search the Scriptures and read them every day.. teaching and divulging.. yet they missed it.. The Scriptures told Him and Pointed to Him.. yet they did not see Him or Recognize Him... obviously the Spirit of the Living God.. was not the author of their 'seeking' and 'divulging'... if He was.. then they would of all 'understood ' and 'known'.. that the Son of Man was standing right before them... instead.. they hurled insults and false accusations at Him.. accusing Him.. and finally murdering Him on a bloody Tree...

The Spirit of God.. will help a Convert to Seek.. He teaches and He brings to Remembrance the things taught of Jesus... man in his unregenerate state cannot seek God on His Own.. he/she runs from the Light and Truth.. if one says man can come to God on His own.. and that God has very little to do with the Process of Salvation.. putting the emphasis back on 'man'.. and his/her ability to 'achieve' a righteousness of their own.. then that is not a Gospel of Grace..

but of Works..

So then are all men elect??? Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all men. Jesus was lifted up.

[Firstfruits]

God has forgiven my sin and your sin.. by being Nailed to that Bloody tree.. for without the shedding of blood.. there is No Forgiveness of Sin... and His Blood is Pure and Innocent..

He also Quickened .. which means bring back to life.. this process.. started by Him .. He is the Author of it.. He removes the condemnation and guilt.. washing it away with His Holy Blood.. translating that person who was once in the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of LIght.. and the Kingdom of His Dear Son... we are seated with Him in the Heavenlies... the sinner is drawn to Him.. He Reveals His Unmerited Goodness to that sinner.. thus brining that sinner to Repentance... for its the Goodness of God that leadeth a person to Repentance... that 'sinner' in his/her unregenerate state cannont percieve or 'know' the goodness of God in their lives... UNLESS>> God reveals IT to them.. thru the Spirit.. which shows that He is the Author of Salvation and He is the One in Control of the New Birth... its not man deciding one day to make a decision for God or Christ.. uh uh...

everybody is dead in Trespasses and Sin.. prior to being Born Again.. from Above... this 'birthing'.. starts with God HImself and ends with Him... no man comes to Him unless "HE DRAWS" them.. which points towards a Salvation which is Grounded in God Himself.. not man..

There can be no change unless we first believe, and God will not make us believe. If we choose not to obey the plan of salvation does not change, we must first believe.

Firstfruits

[Redeemed by Grace]

Can you show me where Scripture teaches that one must be born before they can seek?

Sure.....

John 3; Joel 2:28....

So think this through as to your physical birth, can you seek and know and understand before your are born as a babe? Jesus is clear to Nicodemus, who if you will remember was a teacher of teachers of the Jewish faith [John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?] , telling him he must be born of water and of Spirit [John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ]

So yes, a man must be born of God before a man can come to God....

[Redeemed by Grace]

So then are all men elect??? Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all men. Jesus was lifted up.

No... all men do not seek.... But by Christ's death and resurrection, all men have benefit of God's temporal grace.... and one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus is God and Lord of creation...

To those for whom God has called in grace to salvation.... we know this before death; to those who have rejected, will see Him for who He is and it will be too late for them.

[Firstfruits]

Sure.....

John 3; Joel 2:28....

So think this through as to your physical birth, can you seek and know and understand before your are born as a babe? Jesus is clear to Nicodemus, who if you will remember was a teacher of teachers of the Jewish faith [John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?] , telling him he must be born of water and of Spirit [John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ]

So yes, a man must be born of God before a man can come to God....

Did he not have to believe first?

Firstfruits

[Redeemed by Grace]

There can be no change unless we first believe, and God will not make us believe. If we choose not to obey the plan of salvation does not change, we must first believe.

Firstfruits

Again, is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?

[Firstfruits]

No... all men do not seek.... But by Christ's death and resurrection, all men have benefit of God's temporal grace.... and one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus is God and Lord of creation...

To those for whom God has called in grace to salvation.... we know this before death; to those who have rejected, will see Him for who He is and it will be too late for them.

Are those that believe seekers of God?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Again, is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?

Can God or his Spirit dwell in that which is unclean?

Firstfruits

[Redeemed by Grace]

Did he not have to believe first?

Firstfruits

He couldn't. That is Jesus' point.... He can't unless it has been given to him to believe.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Can God or his Spirit dwell in that which is unclean?

Firstfruits

So you are unclean?

[Firstfruits]

He couldn't. That is Jesus' point.... He can't unless it has been given to him to believe.

But God does not force any man to believe does he?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

So you are unclean?

I believe that because I confessed my sins I am no longer unclean?

I first believed the word that was preached.

Firstfruits