Revelation written 55-60 AD

[IamtheWalrus2]

RogerW,

I agree with your assesment, however, I am still bent on the Parousia occuring at either at His ressurection and/or Pentacost, or at the consummation of the New Covenant after the Old has been abolished as a type here on earth, which explains 70 AD. I still am convinced He is coming again, to wipe away Sin forever.

I will put the scripture here to get a better impact of its ofteness:

eggus

G1451. eggus, eng-goos'; from a prim. verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (lit. or fig., of place or time):--from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready

(Mat 24:32-33) "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: {33} So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,even at the doors."

(Mat 26:18) "And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand;I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples."

(Mark 13:28-29) "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: {29} So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors."

(Luke 19:11) "And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear."

(Luke 21:30-31) "When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nighat hand. {31} So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nighat hand."

(John 2:13) "And the Jews' passover was at hand,and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,"

(John 3:23) "And John also was baptizing in Aenon nearto Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

(John 6:4) "And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh."

(John 6:19) "So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nighunto the ship: and they were afraid."

(John 6:23) "(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nighunto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks"

(John 7:2) "Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand."

(John 11:18) "Now Bethany was nighunto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:"

(John 11:54-55) "Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country nearto the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples. {55} And the Jews' passover was nighat hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves."

(John 19:20) "This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nighto the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin."

(John 19:42) "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nighat hand."

(Acts 9:38) "And forasmuch as Lydda was nighto Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them."

(Acts 27:8) "And, hardly passing it, came unto a place which is called The Fair Havens; nighwhereunto was the city of Lasea."

(Rom 10:8) "But what saith it? The word is nighthee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

(Eph 2:13) "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nighby the blood of Christ."

(Eph 2:17) "And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."

(Phil 4:5) "Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand."

(Heb 6:8) "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nighunto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

(Heb 8:13) "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

(Rev 1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

(Rev 22:10) "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

I believe, after reading your thoughts on this in light of the text, that Christ may have been speaking of the nearness of His cruxifiction and in that it is establishing the kingdom, and Paul, Peter, etc spoke of it in the case of 70 AD, and the kingdom's consummation.

Good conversation.

Blessings.

[IamtheWalrus2]

BTW...what is going on with the text in this site?

Either I have a shaky hand, or

[RogerW]

BTW...what is going on with the text in this site?

Either I have a shaky hand, or

Hi Walrus,

LOL...I just thought you were hollerin at me

It appears we are in agreement...except when you say, "spoke of it in the case of 70 AD, and the kingdom's consummation". I don't see His kingdom as being complete in 70 AD. Nor do I see this as His Second Coming in glory. Heck, the way I see it, it is just barely getting started then. We are talking about the fullness of His eternal kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel...right? His universal church, that is the chosen vehicle for sending the gospel unto all the earth, to draw His elect from the foundation of the world to hear the gospel and receive eternal life by His Word and Holy Spirit had only just begun in 70 AD, so how could that be the date of consumation, or His Second Coming? I see the date of consumation or fulfillment of all things will come in the fullness of time, at His Second Coming.

Many Blessings,
RW

After reading this again, you are saying that 70 AD is the consumation...aren't you? Cause that's the way I read it...but if you are saying 70 AD as well as the consumation in the fullness of time, well then we aren't so far off in our understanding at all. I suspect I don't see the significance of 70 AD in the same way as you. I see it as the final fulfillment of prophecy toward His chosen nation for their rebellious, disobedient hardness of heart.

[Beckrl]

As I see this, Christ at the cross set all things in order. Yes his kingdom had come and was at that time as he spoke it "at hand"

But does that complete his kingdom? I just think it compeleted his work on earth to set all things in order. There is still a time of the Gentiles to be completed and the spreading of the gospel to all nations.

The kingdom of God is at hand, Now is the time for salvation.

[IamtheWalrus2]

Beckrl and RogerW,

The way I see the consummation is that in 70 AD, the Old Covenant was wiped out on earth, the type of what was in Heaven abolished in the eyes of man, and the New Covenant established in the Gospel of Christ. Concerning the second coming, and that consummation; this is a personal one to finally join what was meant to be in the garden of Eden, where Adam failed; the streamline of obedient faith from the heart to the head, and to the hands. I believe we are in the χίλιοι chilioi years.

One question I have for you concerning the gospel preached unto all the nations, the fulness of the Gentiles, both preceding the "consummation".

Didn't this become a fulfilled event when Paul stated:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

...in which fulfilled the statement by Christ:

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

....the point IMO of the Olivet Discourse, was to ready His disciples and the early church of the pending doom to come upon Jerusalem, the polity and the national identity of the Jewish people, that He, just like His Father, would bring judgement on the most wicked generation, that cup had run over from the blood of Adam to Zacarias, coming in the clouds, just as the angel had pronounced at the Ascension.

When Christ spoke of clouds, His audience would immediately understand the connotation of judgement; the scene was not going to be pretty. This event, IMO was not the second coming and neither was the event, Christ came barreling in in Revelation 19 on a white horse with a sword coming out His mouth.

IMO, the second coming, the ability to see and look upon the face of God and Christ, is after the χίλιοι chilioi years.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

In Revelation 22:3, the word "servants" δοῦλος doulos is the same denotation the Word of God, Christ used for His prophets in the Gospels.

Man is bound to Christ in faith that is like the prophets, voices for God.
Back to the Garden.

[tfcrew]

The Ecole Golossary presents the traditional view of author and date.
http://ecole.evansville.edu/glossary/johntheo.html
The author himself states that he was indeed in exile when the vision came.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The book is dated most generally from the reign of Domitian and after he died [AD 96]John was released from Patmos.
Here is some Josephus Antiquities stuff which at a glance [to me] seems to agree with the traditional norm...
http://books.google.com/books?id=LIg...esult&resnum=7

[IamtheWalrus2]

The Ecole Golossary presents the traditional view of author and date.
http://ecole.evansville.edu/glossary/johntheo.html
The author himself states that he was indeed in exile when the vision came.

The book is dated most generally from the reign of Domitian and after he died [AD 96]John was released from Patmos.
Here is some Josephus Antiquities stuff which at a glance [to me] seems to agree with the traditional norm...
http://books.google.com/books?id=LIg...esult&resnum=7

That link isn't to Josephus, it is to Eusebius, and its just a commentary on him. Josephus never wrote about the Apostle Paul.

[RogerW]

Beckrl and RogerW,

The way I see the consummation is that in 70 AD, the Old Covenant was wiped out on earth, the type of what was in Heaven abolished in the eyes of man, and the New Covenant established in the Gospel of Christ.

Hi Walrus,

The Old Covenant was done away at the cross. Hebrew 8 & 9 show the New Covenant was established in His blood at the cross. It was by means of His death that the old was abolished and the new established. This was not made clear to those who continued to offer sacrifices while Jerusalem and the Temple remained standing, but there is no doubt in Scripture that it was at His death the New Testament in His blood had been established on earth. The New Covenant could not be in force until the death of the Testator (Christ), so upon His death He established the New and abolished the Old.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

It is true that the Old Covenant sacrificial system continued until 70 AD, but the consumation or end of the old and establishing of the new came through His death on the cross and resurrection.

Concerning the second coming, and that consummation; this is a personal one to finally join what was meant to be in the garden of Eden, where Adam failed; the streamline of obedient faith from the heart to the head, and to the hands. I believe we are in the χίλιοι chilioi years.

I too believe we are in the thousand year reign of Christ. If I'm understanding the partial preterist pov is there are two Second Comings, one invisible, or Spiritual and the other literal. Is this correct?

One question I have for you concerning the gospel preached unto all the nations, the fulness of the Gentiles, both preceding the "consummation".

Didn't this become a fulfilled event when Paul stated:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

...in which fulfilled the statement by Christ:

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

It seems at the writing by Paul, the gospel, as far as he was concerned had been preached to every creature which is under heaven..."whereof I [Paul] am made a minister". The gospel is designed, and the provisions thereof as a system is proclaimed to all mankind. I think of it in this sense. When there is rebellion against government, and a pardon is issued, the pardon goes to every single inhabitant. Even to those in remote areas who had not heard the pardon, are still among those given pardon.

In Paul's time the gospel had indeed been extensively preached.

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

All known countries appear to have been visited and the message had been proclaimed to all the world. Paul says that it was preached to every creature under heaven, (Col 1:6,23) that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world, (Ro 1:8) that he preached in Arabia, (Ga 1:17) and at Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, (Ro 15:19). We know also that he travelled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul, (Ro 15:24-28). At the same time, the other apostles were not idle; and there is full proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

But is this proof for fulfillment of the Great Commission? How could it be since the earth still exists?

The command was not only to the world that existed in Paul's time, but the Lord says, "I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles...for salvation unto the ends of the earth."

Ac 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

....the point IMO of the Olivet Discourse, was to ready His disciples and the early church of the pending doom to come upon Jerusalem, the polity and the national identity of the Jewish people, that He, just like His Father, would bring judgement on the most wicked generation, that cup had run over from the blood of Adam to Zacarias, coming in the clouds, just as the angel had pronounced at the Ascension.

It is in the Olivet Discourse that I find some agreement with the partial preterists. It seems the Discourse was not only a warning to His disciples and the early church of the pending destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, but also speaks of His Second Coming in glory. I agree 70 AD shows the wrath of God coming against the nation for the final time, just as He had warned time and again. But I don't believe that Christ returned in any fashion. He will be coming on the clouds of glory, and His Second Coming wrote be quiet, but with great noise, and every eye will see Him and every knee will bow, acknowledging Him as Lord of Lords, and King of Kings!

When Christ spoke of clouds, His audience would immediately understand the connotation of judgement; the scene was not going to be pretty. This event, IMO was not the second coming and neither was the event, Christ came barreling in in Revelation 19 on a white horse with a sword coming out His mouth.

I don't find confirmation in Scripture of a coming of Christ where only those alive in the first century understand this. Don't all the peoples of the earth see Him, and mourn? And isn't this when He gathers His people from every corner of the earth?

His Second Coming won't be Spiritual, but physical, or literal. Rev 19 appears to picture the time of consumation for the marriage of the Lamb and His bride. The wrath of God is being poured out one last time against the beast, the kings and their armies who are gathered against Him to make war.

Many Blessings,
RW

[Partaker of Christ]

Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ
You seem to have avoided the other reasons I gave.

How is it that I am avoiding, and what?

Just because I don't answer things, doesn't mean I am avoiding them. Your presumptions are without foundation, and personally, not what should be portrayed amongst a community of believers.

We are just talking here, presenting views from various resources and interpretations. Like I said, I have no interest in debating it, but I will try and defend it, without personal involvements.

Hi IamtheWalrus2!

Sorry if I came over as offensive, but this was not meant.

I guess it is the type of language were I come from.

By saying 'seem', for me is, having the 'appearance of'
As you did not respond to the other questions, it had the 'appearance of' avoidance.
It was not an presumptuous accusation.

Hope this helps to clear thing up.

[IamtheWalrus2]

Partaker,

No worries....I will have to look back into the thread for the questions I missed.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

The question of filling in the blanks of Paul’s length of imprisonment will be answered later, because as we shall see, the 2 years Paul will stay in Rome (Acts 28:30) is a FINAL stay.

I'm sorry but Paul's Epistles allude to him visiting places he hadn't yet by the end of the narrative of Acts, like Crete. All the early traditions agree that Paul was acquitted initially and traveled on preach in other regions. And Nero didn't persecute Christians until after the Great Fire in 64 AD, and contrary to modern fictional depictions it didn't got on till the end of Reign, Nero stopped after only a brief period., and from the early Apocryphal accounts Paul wasn't there when it started, he was on the way when Peter died. As for the topic at hand, my mind is not currently made up entirely on when Revelation was written, but I learn towards Domitian, I'm also firmly of the eblif that it was the LAST book of the Bible written, so having it written before Acts narrative even ends certainly doesn't work for me.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

I'd really like to know how the OP gets any date other then 58 AD for when Felix is replaced as Governor of Judea? Because that's pretty firmly established by Josephus.

[Mithrandir-Olorin]

Actually the "Doctrine of the Nicolaitans" is the organized Priesthood.

[Stormcrow]

Once I accepted the earlier date, the pieces fell right into their places. I began to understand it with ease.

Same here. Nothing in the book makes sense if it is written - as some claim - in 95-96.

[Stormcrow]

but I learn towards Domitian

Robert Young, author of Young's Analytical Concordance, wrote a commentary on Revelation published prior to 1885 wherein he makes the following statement: "It was written in Patmos about A.D. 68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D. 175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou - i.e., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Dimitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the early date."

Murdock Syriac (5th Century)
"The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."

Etheridge Syriac (5th Century)
THE REVELATION WHICH WAS MADE UNTO JUHANON THE EVANGELIST, FROM ALOHA, IN PATHAMON THE ISLAND, WHITHER HE HAD BEEN CAST BY NERO CAESAR.

And what was the given name of Nero???

Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, the future Nero, was born on 15 December 37 in Antium, near Rome.^[11][12] He was the only son of Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus and Agrippina the Younger, sister of Emperor Caligula.

The entire reason for believing Revelation was written during Emperor Domitian's reign ultimately boils down to a misunderstanding over the name "Domitius."