cure-real
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: Three questions..

  1. #1

    Three questions..

    My last thread on here sort of took on a life of it's own. I'm hoping my questions here and the answers provided are a little more clean cut. I'm not looking to get into a "battle of bible verses." I just want the opposing (or shared) views in relation the specific passages I'm addressing. Besides we can all gather multiple verses to make our cases. I just want the views on the specific verse mentioned. I am using the NET translation. And I am a pre-tribber.

    1) In Luke 21 Jesus answers that three part question of the disciples, which included the "end time" events. Concluding his discussion of all the events of the end time, I'll pick up at verse 35 - "For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. (36) But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    My question here deals with the logic of what is said, and so I am looking for how others explain their view on these two verses. Here is how I understand it:

    He first says the events (of the tribulation) are going to fall on everyone on the earth (which means no one escapes these events). He then says in the very next sentence that there are those who can escape "all these things" (this is not one single event, such as the return of Christ). What? You can't have both of those statements or events (not escaping, and escaping) be true if the only option is everyone dwelling here on earth. The ideas/events/statements are mutually exclusive. Either these events fall on everyone on the earth or they fall on some on the earth (and some on earth escape). He said it falls on everyone on earth so that rules out anyone on earth escaping. So the only way to avoid a contradiction and for his second statement to be true is for some to not be on the earth (ie, they escape to someplace else not on the earth). He goes on to say that those who escape these events on earth will stand before him. Since we know that he is in heaven while these events are taking place on earth, those who escape and are standing before him must also be with him in heaven. Sounds "rapture-ish" to me.

    2) Why do you believe God has allowed such a divide over the understanding of a rapture or non-rapture event? And I have heard from others that those who hold a non-pre-trib view tend to "attack" or fiercely oppose the pre-trib crowd. Why is this? If such a doctrine has no salvation implication, why isn't there more of an "openness" to multiple views? The way I see it, if you're a true believer that holds a post-trib view and the rapture does take place, well, you're going up anyways. And if you're a pre-tribber and there is no rapture, God will still be with you during the times of trouble. Either way, God is still with us. Some believe that during the tribulation he'll be with us in heaven, others believe during the tribulation he'll be with us here on earth. We'll find out soon enough.

    3) Let me put up a disclaimer: I am not saying that any non-pre-trib view is from the Devil! So please do not take that from this question. Now, we know that the Devil loves to "test" and distort the word of God. He did it in the Garden of Eden ("did God say"...) and even did it with Christ ("it is written"...). How do those who are non-pre-trib deal with the supposed "new age" ideas that not only seem to mirror the end time events as told in the bible, such as cataclysmic changes, but also account for a mass disappearance or "great evacuation." We know that demons exist and that people have and, I assume, still do communicate with evil spirits. If such an event as the rapture were to be true, wouldn't the Devil need a way to explain it away for those that are still on the earth? And I assume he would need to get the message out prior to the event actually happening, or at least the groundwork for an understanding of what's happening. The last thing he would want is for people to see it as the rapture and believe in God.

    I dunno. I guess when I read of things written by spirit channelers, it seems a little odd that any time would even be spent on such a subject if these spirits were not aware of such an event or believe that it in fact was coming.

    "The Great Evacuation will come upon the world very suddenly. The flash of emergency events will be as a lightning that flashes in the sky. So suddenly and so quick in its happening that it is over almost before you are aware of its presence..." - Project World Evacuation

    "Many of these beings who are leaving this planet at this time have completed that which they came to do. It is a time of great rejoicing for them. Do not feel sad about their leaving. They are going home. Many are waiting to be with them again... Many beings must move on, for their thought patterns are of the past. They hold on to these thoughts that keep Earth held back." - The Time Is Now

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    ADELAIDE
    Posts
    1,873
    Luke doesnt have a three part question.


    They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?"



    What we are to escape is the righteous judgement of God the last day.
    We escape by faith in the finished work of Christ.

    On Judgement day, the book of life will be opened, saving us from eternal seperation in the wrath of God.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    1) In Luke 21 Jesus answers that three part question of the disciples, which included the "end time" events. Concluding his discussion of all the events of the end time, I'll pick up at verse 35 - "For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. (36) But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    My question here deals with the logic of what is said, and so I am looking for how others explain their view on these two verses. Here is how I understand it:

    He first says the events (of the tribulation) are going to fall on everyone on the earth (which means no one escapes these events). He then says in the very next sentence that there are those who can escape "all these things" (this is not one single event, such as the return of Christ). What? ...
    The word "earth", depending on its context, may properly translated as "land", referring to, that is, the Land of the people of God (i.e., Israel and/or Judah/Judea). In Luke 21.35-36, Christ is not contradicting himself, and the two statements are not mutually exclusive if the words "the earth" are properly interpreted as referring to the Land of Judea (which he specifically mentioned earlier in the chapter). He is saying that "it" will come upon the whole of the Land, being Judea, and that those that are "awake" will recognize the time that is coming upon them, and they will escape from Judea.

    This is mirrored in his earlier statement in Luke 21.20-24. Christ says that those "who are in Judea" should "flee to the mountains". Clearly, it would not do any good for people in Judea to hide in the mountains if a world-wide catastrophe was about to take place. The events of Luke 21 are focused on a great series of events that would happen within the Land of Judea. Hence, these events come upon "the earth" (that is, "the land" of Judea), and people are still able to "escape" (that is, they can "flee to the mountains" out of Judea).

    2) Why do you believe God has allowed such a divide over the understanding of a rapture or non-rapture event?
    Why has he allowed such a divide over the understanding of anything? Seven-day creation or eon-long evolution? Was Jesus ransomed to Satan, or sacrificed to God? Is salvation "limited" (God chooses who is saved) or "unlimited" (man responds to salvation's call)?

    And I have heard from others that those who hold a non-pre-trib view tend to "attack" or fiercely oppose the pre-trib crowd. Why is this?
    "Attack" is a terribly misleading word. "Criticize", though still negative in implication, is more accurate. Just because people who aren't pre-trib may "criticize" the pre-trib position doesn't mean pre-tribs don't do the same. (Thomas Ice is a huge pre-tribber who writes entire books "attacking" opposing views.) Whether or not non-pre-tribbers "attack" or "criticize" the pre-trib position is irrelevant in relation to whether the pre-trib position is actually Scriptural. Meaning, just because non-pre-tribbers "fiercely oppose", it doesn't mean that pre-trib is suddenly true (or false) simply because it's a "victim" of these "attacks".

    If such a doctrine has no salvation implication, why isn't there more of an "openness" to multiple views?
    Because that becomes a form of relativism. Even though it isn't a "salvation issue", it is still a matter of Truth... we should also seek to find the Truth, and oftentimes that involves arguing in favor of Doctrine A, or arguing against Doctrine B.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA
    Posts
    1,314
    Blog Entries
    10
    Here is your can of worms, freshly opened. lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    I am using the NET translation. And I am a pre-tribber.

    1) In Luke 21 Jesus answers that three part question of the disciples, which included the "end time" events. Concluding his discussion of all the events of the end time, I'll pick up at verse 35 - "For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. (36) But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    My question here deals with the logic of what is said, and so I am looking for how others explain their view on these two verses. Here is how I understand it:

    He first says the events (of the tribulation) are going to fall on everyone on the earth (which means no one escapes these events). He then says in the very next sentence that there are those who can escape "all these things" (this is not one single event, such as the return of Christ). What? You can't have both of those statements or events (not escaping, and escaping) be true if the only option is everyone dwelling here on earth. The ideas/events/statements are mutually exclusive. Either these events fall on everyone on the earth or they fall on some on the earth (and some on earth escape). He said it falls on everyone on earth so that rules out anyone on earth escaping. So the only way to avoid a contradiction and for his second statement to be true is for some to not be on the earth (ie, they escape to someplace else not on the earth). He goes on to say that those who escape these events on earth will stand before him. Since we know that he is in heaven while these events are taking place on earth, those who escape and are standing before him must also be with him in heaven. Sounds "rapture-ish" to me.
    First thing. I noticed that the scriptures you post seem to have a lot of interpretation already interspersed into them already, as though the actual verses mean what is written in parentheses. This is a mistake. The verses should be quoted devoid of the interpretations, because the interpretations are often what distorts the scriptures altogether, like I am going to prove in this post.

    I have to say that this chapter does not primarily deal with the events of the end times. Rather, this chapter focuses primarily on the events that, while Lord Jesus was walking the earth, is going to happen. These things, most of them, started to be fulfilled at around 70AD, where the culmination being Jerusalem being "trampled" by the Gentiles until their time is complete.

    I will attempt to make a short summary of this portion of the Olivet Discourse in conjunction with the other two accounts. Matthew's account deals primarily with all of the end-times events. In His account, he completely omits the "but before all of these" which is written in both Mark and Luke's version. Mark's version seems to be a quick summary of both Matthew and Luke's versions, but there is one exception. Mark's Gospel was written first. Therefore, both Luke's version and Matthew's version could have used Mark's version as inspiration. This also proves that both Matthew and Luke's accounts are correct.

    So what gives? Luke focuses on the "But before all of these", and only gives us a brief description, (three verses in that entire chapter that is devoted to some signs that precede the Lord's coming). Matthew's account, which many biblical historians claim was the last of the first three gospels to be written, omits the "but before all of these" altogether, and focuses on the actual signs of the end times.

    With that in mind, we now move forward to Luke 21:34

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.

    IN this verse, Luke is saying that the Lord is referring to a certain day. We find a few verses before that the day in question is the day of the Lord's return. (Luke 21:27)

    Now, let's take a look at verse 35.

    For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    It appears to me that the "it" in this verse is referring to the day that is stated in the previous verse. This day is the Day of the Lord, otherwise known as the Day of the Lord's return. It is definitely not referring to the Great Tribulation, mainly because the Great Tribulation is not mentioned in this chapter at all. The closest thing that it comes to even mirroring the Great Tribulation is the idea that armies will surround Jerusalem. The problem with that is that there is no mentioning of the Abomination that causes Desolation, or any period of time of suffering afterward in this chapter, two topics that the other two versions seem to deal with as prerequisites to the Lord's return.

    You see, I do not like using the book of Luke when talking about the end-times events because it is obvious that he did not put much attention to the actual signs that precede the Lord's return. "There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars" and the weather will become so wonky that men will have heart attacks. Where is this written anywhere else in the entire Bible? There is no set order at all here when Luke talks about the Lord's return, it is as though he is merely talking about it out of obligation, and not for the sake of acurately portraying what the Lord said back then concerning the signs of the end.

    Now this would make sense if Luke was a reporter who wrote to his friend about what the people in and around Jerusalem heard Lord Jesus talk about. (And oh, BTW, that's the exact circumstances in which Luke wrote this epistle, as he tells us in chapter 1). The people at Jerusalem that heard portions of the Olivet Discourse, being the religious sort that have all of their emotions tied to their holy city, would most definitely focus on what the Lord said about the city, especially since he proclaimed in a loud voice that the Temple would be completely destroyed. The people who heard Him would not be even remotely concerned about the signs that had nothing to do with them. So, they told Luke what they have heard, and Luke recorded it and sent it to his friend.

    Matthew, on the other hand, seeks accuracy, not necessarily on the events that preceded the destruction of the temple, but rather the events that precede the day in which Luke mentions in passing. This is why Matthew's account is more detailed, and thus more reliable, imho, when it comes to the end-time signs.

    Ok, enough sidetracking. My point is that the "it" that is mentioned in verse 35 refers to the day that is mentioned in verse 34. It would seem to refer to the Day of the Lord's return, and not to any other day. We know that when the Lord returns, it will be a day of wrath. Those who are not gathered into the air will be subject to the wrath of God. This is why Luke follows up with the next verse.

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Luke's version does not give us any clue as to which "day" he is talking about. Is it the day when the signs in the sun, moon, and stars happen, or is it when the weather goes wacky? My answer has to come from another source, because Luke's version comes up short. It is in Matthew's version that we see what the signs are, and what exactly happens when those signs happen. Did you not notice that the gathering is not even mention in Luke 21, at all? It just says that when you see all of these things happen, know that the time of the Lord is at hand. It does not even say what the Lord does when He returns, other than to say that He returns.

    Other than that, it would seem that verse 36 refers to us escaping the destruction of Jerusalem, since those are the signs that Luke focuses on in that entire chapter up to that point. Either way, I do not see anything pre-trib naterial here. I do understand why the Amil crowd loves Luke's version though. It has become apparent to me now.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA
    Posts
    1,314
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    2) Why do you believe God has allowed such a divide over the understanding of a rapture or non-rapture event? And I have heard from others that those who hold a non-pre-trib view tend to "attack" or fiercely oppose the pre-trib crowd. Why is this? If such a doctrine has no salvation implication, why isn't there more of an "openness" to multiple views? The way I see it, if you're a true believer that holds a post-trib view and the rapture does take place, well, you're going up anyways. And if you're a pre-tribber and there is no rapture, God will still be with you during the times of trouble. Either way, God is still with us. Some believe that during the tribulation he'll be with us in heaven, others believe during the tribulation he'll be with us here on earth. We'll find out soon enough.
    In all of my experience both in churches and on the net, I have found that those who do not hold to the pre-trib doctrines are alienated. At one point, the administrators at another forum, churchUSA, declared me to be a moderator, until they found out that I believed in the post-tribulation rapture. I was not only stripped of my position, but booted out of their forum altogether. There are many more stories like this that pretty much every post-tribber, whether they be premil or amil, have experienced.

    In truth, so many people want to believe in the pre-trib doctrine that anyone who says anything differently are viewed as attackers. We, and I speak for all post-tribbers here, are not atacking a sound doctrine. We are questioning the soundness of the pre-trib doctrine, in light of the actual scriptures themselves. Some find that to be "attacking", while the rest of us call that, "try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world", a John instructs us in 1 John 4:1. We have tested the spirits of the doctrines of the pre-trib model, and we have found them to be lacking something. That something is scriptural support. So we have decided not to believe in something that is not written in the Bible.

    Also, I would bring to your attention the highlighted portion of your post. It is not a guarantee that those who find that there is no rapture before the man of sin is revealed that they would continue in their love of Lord Jesus. I have found that many are pre-tribbers are scared of what many believers will face during the Great Tribulation. They are also afraid that they will not be able to stand when that hour of testing comes. In short, they are afraid of the Great Tribulation. IF God allows them to undergo it, then there is a real possibility that those who are of the pre-trib camp will betray God, mainly because they would feel as though they were betrayed by Him, and side with the beast, claiming that God abandoned them.

    This is my worst fear. I do not wish for anyone to lose heart and take the mark of the beast. That mark will cause all who take it to have their names blotted out of the Lamgs's book of life. Damnation awaits those who take the Mark of the Beast, and the pre-tribbers who are not open-minded at all are at the most risk of taking that mark. And you can not say to me that "most pre-tribbers are open minded", because my experiences say otherwise. They are not open minded at all, most of them, and they DO tie in their version of the end times into salvation. I have been called a heretic because of my views, which to this day has not been refuted at all by scripture (My views that is).

    So the attacking that many of us post-tribbers are being accused of is nothing more than another blatant attempt to silence us, and in this forum, we have the ability to raise our voices and be heard.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA
    Posts
    1,314
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    3) Let me put up a disclaimer: I am not saying that any non-pre-trib view is from the Devil! So please do not take that from this question. Now, we know that the Devil loves to "test" and distort the word of God. He did it in the Garden of Eden ("did God say"...) and even did it with Christ ("it is written"...). How do those who are non-pre-trib deal with the supposed "new age" ideas that not only seem to mirror the end time events as told in the bible, such as cataclysmic changes, but also account for a mass disappearance or "great evacuation." We know that demons exist and that people have and, I assume, still do communicate with evil spirits. If such an event as the rapture were to be true, wouldn't the Devil need a way to explain it away for those that are still on the earth? And I assume he would need to get the message out prior to the event actually happening, or at least the groundwork for an understanding of what's happening. The last thing he would want is for people to see it as the rapture and believe in God.

    I dunno. I guess when I read of things written by spirit channelers, it seems a little odd that any time would even be spent on such a subject if these spirits were not aware of such an event or believe that it in fact was coming.

    "The Great Evacuation will come upon the world very suddenly. The flash of emergency events will be as a lightning that flashes in the sky. So suddenly and so quick in its happening that it is over almost before you are aware of its presence..." - Project World Evacuation

    "Many of these beings who are leaving this planet at this time have completed that which they came to do. It is a time of great rejoicing for them. Do not feel sad about their leaving. They are going home. Many are waiting to be with them again... Many beings must move on, for their thought patterns are of the past. They hold on to these thoughts that keep Earth held back." - The Time Is Now
    In order to understand what is going on, one has to read 1 Kings 22. In that book, we have the Micaiah's story. In that portion of scripture, Ahab wanted to invade Syria, and wanted the king of Judah to join him. The King of Judah asked that all of the prophets be gathered together to give us the word of the Lord. Ahab brought together everyone except Micaiah, and they all spouted the prosperity doctrine to both of them. The king of Judah had some reservations and requested that Micaiah be brought forth, which Ahab reluctantly did. When Micaiah showed up, he was questioned, and Micaiah spouted the same message as the other prophets. Ahab, disturbed, complained to Micaiah, claiming that he was mocking him. When Micaiah heard this, he proclaimed something that I feel is true even today.

    Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Kings 22:23.

    Now, why would this be true even today? Here's why.

    For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:38-39

    You see, the reason why there is no unity in the church even today is because there are those who claim to be believers who actually are not. If they are given the prosperity treatment that Ahab had gotten in 1 Kings 22, then they will not be aware of the Day of the Lord's wrath when it comes, because they are looking for a sign that I have identified as being a false sign. Many are looking for the blood moon, thinking that it is the sign of the Lord's return. It isn't. The actual sign is complete darkness, with neither the sun, moon or stars shining. The only light in the sky will be that of Lord Jesus when he comes. However, the pre-trib doctrine does not say this. In fact, the Pre-trib doctrine seems to ignore Matthew's account altogether. So, because so many "christians" believe in a doctrine with no scriptural support now, the world is following after the pre-tribbers. So when the blood-moon sign happens and the world is NOT destroyed, then they will all say that our religion is false, because a prophecy that the pre-tribbers hold to has been proven incorrect.

    Now do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that pre-tribbers are being posessed by lying spirits. I am only saying that the pre-trib doctrine does not seem like sound doctrine to me. Those who hold to it are the ones I worry about, because there is very little to almost no scriptural support for the pre-trib doctrine. In truth, my position was changed from the pre-trib version to the post-trib version that I hold to now AFTER I read the Bible for myself. I read Matthew 24:29 and an alarm went off in my head. After reading more scriptures, I was convinced that the pre-trib doctrine was false, and have been talking about it ever since.
    Last edited by third hero; Jul 10th 2009 at 10:04 AM. Reason: self-editing

  7. #7
    You told us in your last thread that grammar is important "basic grammar". That is what I have been working and working on here to show people. So think about something you told us as to when the trumpets begin - and then apply basic grammar - flow and put Rev. 15:1 and Rev. 8:2 in their proper order.

    Rev. 15
    seven angels
    Rev. 8
    the seven angels

    So where did John actually see them first?

    Rev. 15:1
    "And I saw another sign...seven angels, having the seven last plagues..."
    "And" - shows that this is linked to a previous part. John is still within one story that was set up as starting elsewhere.
    "another sign" - we are to link this to where the other sign was being told about or signs.
    Rev. 12:1
    "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
    wonder =sign
    So Rev. 12:1 is a chapter that comes before - is needed before we can find John writing chapter 15.
    In chapter 15 - verse 5 - a new story begins.
    "And after that I looked, and behold...."
    v6
    "And the seven angels came out of the temple..."
    the seven angels
    as in - the John already told us about this set of angels
    What happens at the end of Rev. 15:8?
    "...no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
    John has not yet seen what happens as to the vials - that is chapter 16. John was shown the trumpet times right at the end of chapter 15.
    "till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"
    At the end of chapter 15, John saw seven plagues fulfilled.

    In Rev. 8:2 - after the seventh seal was opened -John chose to place the overall trumpet message as he saw the very same set of angels show up again.
    "And I saw the seven angels..."
    which were given seven trumpets

    Consider this too -
    Rev. 7 refers to those that came out of great tribulation.
    They get found in His temple.
    Rev. 8 brings a story as to when there was incense in the temple -
    Ok- incense time is a no man in the temple event.
    The people must pray on the outside of the temple.

    Luke 1:9
    "According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord."
    as in - this angel had been gone from the temple for Rev. 8.
    Luke 1:10
    "And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense."

  8. #8
    Noitce that Rev. 4:1 does not say "And".

    4:1
    "After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven...I will shew thee things..."
    I don't want to go into too much detail at the moment - so think about what happens at the end of Rev. 6.
    6:16
    "...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne..."
    The wicked are trying to hide from the face of God.
    Why?
    Because they have now seen that the church message was true - Jesus Christ came and raptured the church at the resurrection of the just.

    Now - Rev. 7
    v1
    "And after these things I saw..."
    And - shows another chapter goes in front of this one.
    after - means to split that last section away from this new one
    Rev. 7 will now go back in time. Back to reveal the happenings of the great tribulation.
    Rev. 8 - shows there was silence in heaven.
    Applying Isaiah 65:6 and 62:1-4 with this thought - reveals that Jesus has come and freed Jerusalem.
    Isaiah 18 speaks of how after the harvest - God will take His rest - in His dwellingplace.
    Psalm 50 refers to gathering the saints and then silence.
    Isaiah 62:1-4 refers to God won't keep silence till Jerusalem is righteousness - and add in Daniel 9:24-= the 70th week has to end first before Daniel's people get their righteousness.
    Rev. 8 - is where the already seen by John trumpet story was placed.
    So take Rev. 8:1-2a...then skip all the way to Rev. 11:19b and then on to Rev. 16:1 where the time of great hail will end the final set of seven plagues.

  9. #9
    Rev. 7:1
    "And after these things I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth..."
    after - split this section of a new story away from the other
    four angels - as in not seen at an earlier time angels
    standing upon the four corners
    Ezekiel 7 shows this reveals God is about to send the wicked man against the land of Israel.
    (was Nebuchadnezzar)
    Ezekiel 7:1
    "...the end is come upon the four corners of the land."
    v24
    "Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen..."
    v25
    "Destruction cometh..."
    How was this time of the wicked against Israel to come?
    v15
    "The sword...the pestilence...the famine....devour him."
    When the wicked man of the earth was sent with many ways to devour Israel.
    sword, famine, pestilence

    Think now about the various riders of the seals - which one did John see with many ways to slay people?
    4th seal
    Rev. 6:8
    "...to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."
    The time against Israel - as to the ac - can't happen till this fourth seal rider is opened.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Posts
    5,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    I have heard from others that those who hold a non-pre-trib view tend to "attack" or fiercely oppose the pre-trib crowd. Why is this? If such a doctrine has no salvation implication, why isn't there more of an "openness" to multiple views? The way I see it, if you're a true believer that holds a post-trib view and the rapture does take place, well, you're going up anyways. And if you're a pre-tribber and there is no rapture, God will still be with you during the times of trouble. Either way, God is still with us. Some believe that during the tribulation he'll be with us in heaven, others believe during the tribulation he'll be with us here on earth. We'll find out soon enough.
    I would suggest, nobody was attacking Pretribbers; one Pretribber opened a thread and alleged that. Ironically, the same person making this allegation was the one throwing personal slights - calling all Posttribbers and Partial Preterists on this board 'arrogant'. If you look back on the recent trib threads you will see that Posttribbers and Partial Preterists were simply pressing Pretribbers for answers which they were unable to answer. I personally think it was frustration from that quarter at not having answers which was the real issue - althought that is merely my opinion. There was no personal assaults from Posttribbers and Partial Preterists that I saw.

    Moreover, no one has treated you discourteously from what I can see.

    I think most of us (regardless of our view) want to get to the core of the biblical issues.
    God bless,

    WPM

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Posts
    5,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    My last thread on here sort of took on a life of it's own. I'm hoping my questions here and the answers provided are a little more clean cut. I'm not looking to get into a "battle of bible verses." I just want the opposing (or shared) views in relation the specific passages I'm addressing. Besides we can all gather multiple verses to make our cases. I just want the views on the specific verse mentioned. I am using the NET translation. And I am a pre-tribber.

    1) In Luke 21 Jesus answers that three part question of the disciples, which included the "end time" events. Concluding his discussion of all the events of the end time, I'll pick up at verse 35 - "For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. (36) But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    My question here deals with the logic of what is said, and so I am looking for how others explain their view on these two verses. Here is how I understand it:

    He first says the events (of the tribulation) are going to fall on everyone on the earth (which means no one escapes these events). He then says in the very next sentence that there are those who can escape "all these things" (this is not one single event, such as the return of Christ). What? You can't have both of those statements or events (not escaping, and escaping) be true if the only option is everyone dwelling here on earth. The ideas/events/statements are mutually exclusive. Either these events fall on everyone on the earth or they fall on some on the earth (and some on earth escape). He said it falls on everyone on earth so that rules out anyone on earth escaping. So the only way to avoid a contradiction and for his second statement to be true is for some to not be on the earth (ie, they escape to someplace else not on the earth). He goes on to say that those who escape these events on earth will stand before him. Since we know that he is in heaven while these events are taking place on earth, those who escape and are standing before him must also be with him in heaven. Sounds "rapture-ish" to me.
    From what I can see, after the tribulation come the climactic one-and-only Coming of Christ, which sees the destruction of the wicked and this sin-cursed world. Jesus tells us in Luke 21:33-36 that Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

    Prevailing ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction. We know when Jesus returns: “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10-12) and that old will be replaced at Jesus return with “a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea” (Revelation 21:1-2). For the believer, “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).
    God bless,

    WPM

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Posts
    5,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    My last thread on here sort of took on a life of it's own. I'm hoping my questions here and the answers provided are a little more clean cut. I'm not looking to get into a "battle of bible verses." I just want the opposing (or shared) views in relation the specific passages I'm addressing. Besides we can all gather multiple verses to make our cases. I just want the views on the specific verse mentioned. I am using the NET translation. And I am a pre-tribber.

    1) In Luke 21 Jesus answers that three part question of the disciples, which included the "end time" events. Concluding his discussion of all the events of the end time, I'll pick up at verse 35 - "For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. (36) But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    My question here deals with the logic of what is said, and so I am looking for how others explain their view on these two verses. Here is how I understand it:

    He first says the events (of the tribulation) are going to fall on everyone on the earth (which means no one escapes these events). He then says in the very next sentence that there are those who can escape "all these things" (this is not one single event, such as the return of Christ). What? You can't have both of those statements or events (not escaping, and escaping) be true if the only option is everyone dwelling here on earth. The ideas/events/statements are mutually exclusive. Either these events fall on everyone on the earth or they fall on some on the earth (and some on earth escape). He said it falls on everyone on earth so that rules out anyone on earth escaping. So the only way to avoid a contradiction and for his second statement to be true is for some to not be on the earth (ie, they escape to someplace else not on the earth). He goes on to say that those who escape these events on earth will stand before him. Since we know that he is in heaven while these events are taking place on earth, those who escape and are standing before him must also be with him in heaven. Sounds "rapture-ish" to me.

    2) Why do you believe God has allowed such a divide over the understanding of a rapture or non-rapture event? And I have heard from others that those who hold a non-pre-trib view tend to "attack" or fiercely oppose the pre-trib crowd. Why is this? If such a doctrine has no salvation implication, why isn't there more of an "openness" to multiple views? The way I see it, if you're a true believer that holds a post-trib view and the rapture does take place, well, you're going up anyways. And if you're a pre-tribber and there is no rapture, God will still be with you during the times of trouble. Either way, God is still with us. Some believe that during the tribulation he'll be with us in heaven, others believe during the tribulation he'll be with us here on earth. We'll find out soon enough.

    3) Let me put up a disclaimer: I am not saying that any non-pre-trib view is from the Devil! So please do not take that from this question. Now, we know that the Devil loves to "test" and distort the word of God. He did it in the Garden of Eden ("did God say"...) and even did it with Christ ("it is written"...). How do those who are non-pre-trib deal with the supposed "new age" ideas that not only seem to mirror the end time events as told in the bible, such as cataclysmic changes, but also account for a mass disappearance or "great evacuation." We know that demons exist and that people have and, I assume, still do communicate with evil spirits. If such an event as the rapture were to be true, wouldn't the Devil need a way to explain it away for those that are still on the earth? And I assume he would need to get the message out prior to the event actually happening, or at least the groundwork for an understanding of what's happening. The last thing he would want is for people to see it as the rapture and believe in God.

    I dunno. I guess when I read of things written by spirit channelers, it seems a little odd that any time would even be spent on such a subject if these spirits were not aware of such an event or believe that it in fact was coming.

    "The Great Evacuation will come upon the world very suddenly. The flash of emergency events will be as a lightning that flashes in the sky. So suddenly and so quick in its happening that it is over almost before you are aware of its presence..." - Project World Evacuation

    "Many of these beings who are leaving this planet at this time have completed that which they came to do. It is a time of great rejoicing for them. Do not feel sad about their leaving. They are going home. Many are waiting to be with them again... Many beings must move on, for their thought patterns are of the past. They hold on to these thoughts that keep Earth held back." - The Time Is Now
    What new age thinks of any doctrines means nothing. The fact that 100% of born again Christians disappear would send a message to the whole world. If Pretrib were true then the whole world would 100% know that the evangelical message was it and would get saved - in my estimation.

    Can you show us one single passage that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?
    God bless,

    WPM

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    What new age thinks of any doctrines means nothing. The fact that 100% of born again Christians disappear would send a message to the whole world. If Pretrib were true then the whole world would 100% know that the evangelical message was it and would get saved - in my estimation.

    Can you show us one single passage that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?
    When you say passage, you mean one verse? I think Luke 21 sufficiently describes end time events, the second coming of Christ in the clouds, and I believe the rapture can be logically drawn from the verses, as I have described.

    And as far as 100% of the world believing something so obvious.. well God walked in their midst, and they still didn't recognize him. Revelation even details men cursing God in the midst of his wrath and it says "they did not repent." They know it's from God, but they still don't repent. Anyways, I think 2 Thes. 2:11,12 sufficiently answers that.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Posts
    5,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Kant View Post
    When you say passage, you mean one verse? I think Luke 21 sufficiently describes end time events, the second coming of Christ in the clouds, and I believe the rapture can be logically drawn from the verses, as I have described.

    And as far as 100% of the world believing something so obvious.. well God walked in their midst, and they still didn't recognize him. Revelation even details men cursing God in the midst of his wrath and it says "they did not repent." They know it's from God, but they still don't repent. Anyways, I think 2 Thes. 2:11,12 sufficiently answers that.
    I see you didn't address my thoughts on Luke 21:33-36. I feel there is enough there to forbid your Pretrib interpretation. I have yet to see any evidence of this supposed 7yr trib after a supposed Pretrib rapture. It is not there. Luke 21:33-36 teaches the opposite to Pretrib. Please address my commentary.
    God bless,

    WPM

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Luke doesnt have a three part question.


    They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?"

    What we are to escape is the righteous judgement of God the last day.
    We escape by faith in the finished work of Christ.

    On Judgement day, the book of life will be opened, saving us from eternal seperation in the wrath of God.
    Thanks for your reply. You are right, there is no three part question in Luke. I mentioned that because I know that in other gospels, a three part question is asked. So let me rephrase and say he answers their question(s).

    When you say we escape the "righteous judgment of God the last day", are you referring to a singular judgment or plural judgments of God? Do you believe the Revelation judgments or "wrath of God" is a part of this "righteous judgment" and do you believe all of that occurs at the second coming?

    If you believe all of the judgments occur at the second coming, well I guess the great tribulation won't be so bad. If you believe that judgments are spread out over a period of time (during the tribulation and also at his second coming) then why would he spare us from some (second coming judgments?) and not the others (tribulation)? And as far as I can tell the only real judgment at the second coming (depending on your time line with the 1000 years) would be judgment to the eternal death which is really a singular judgment. But in the Luke passage he mentions escaping "things", which seems to imply more than one of something.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Geiste questions (random questions)
    By geiste37 in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Oct 17th 2008, 10:59 PM
  2. Geiste questions (pre-questions)
    By geiste37 in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: Oct 16th 2008, 12:48 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •