Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

[Bandit]

If it begins in 607BCE, then its completion takes place in 1914CE; and in that year Christ Jesus is enthroned as king, marking the beginning of Christ's presence.

So, that is how you guys get 1914! (And I thought it was pulled out of thin air. )

[TalonKarrde_X]

The word can also be translated as "vulture",

ἀετός
an eagle
ἀετός
an eagle (from its wind-like flight)
Derivation: from the same as G109;
KJV Usage: eagle. G109
Thayer:
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Eagle

So, the only reason that the word is sometimes translated as vulture, is because the verse also mentions a dead body. The word itself, means eagle.

The word can also be translated as "vulture", and given that these birds are found where there are dead bodies, the obvious thing to conclude here is that Jesus is saying, As lightning is a sign to all that a storm is approaching, and as vultures are a sign that dead bodies are near, so too the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven is a sign that the redemption of God's people is near. This maxim is also used in Luke 17:37, but in answer to the question, Where will these ones be left? Here the proverb is used to mean, Those who are left (as those left outside of the ark or left inside the city of Sodom) will be food for the birds. So you can see that in neither of these instances does this pithy saying have anything to do with "spiritual vision".

It may be that verses 27-28 also carry the secondary implication that visible signs are an indication of Christ's presence; certainly, this idea is expressed in other verses. However, this is not their primary meaning.
Lightning is used to show the obviousness of the sign. It will not be a dark, secret event that only a handful will know about. The sign will be like a flash of lightning that lights up the whole sky so that everyone will see it. Certainly, there can be no one who is not aware of the sign of Christ's presence for its obviousness.
Taking a look at the corresponding account in Luke 17, we see that Jesus gave the gathering of the eagles together into one body as a further explanation of 'one being taken along, and one being abandoned'. This is a description of how true Christians will be gathered together into one congregation, while the rest are abandoned. Compare the verses in Matthew just before; these warn of false Christs and false prophets, in other words, false religions, but the lightning and the eagles are given as contrasts to these. You can avoid the pitfalls of following after false Christs by noting that the sign will be like lightning, and the eagles will be gathered.

Where will these ones be left?

This is not the question asked.

[TalonKarrde_X]

So, that is how you guys get 1914! (And I thought it was pulled out of thin air. )

Lol, yeah, that's one way. By studying the Scriptures to that depth. Nihil also asked for historical evidence, and we can also look at world events to see when Christ's presence began.
1914 was a pivotal year in human history. This fact is noted time and again by historians and others. WWI and its time period was not simply a time with some interesting events. This was a global, catastrophic upheaval the likes of which had never occurred ever before. All of the world's governments were radically and irrevocably changed, fashioning the division between the democratic and the iron-fisted fascist/communist/dictatorships. The war itself was global and total, and introduced a level of carnage absolutely unheard of in all human history. The greatest and worst plague to ever hit mankind was also totally global, leaving no place on earth untouched by its ravages. In the US the central banking system was introduced which was a key element to effecting the global economy and all its ramifications (vastly more significant that it sounds). And the creation of a global peace keeping organization known as the League of Nations.
As Daniel 11:27 says, attempts to bring these things about had occurred before, but they were never successful because the end was yet for an appointed time. But, once that appointed time had arrived, then these things were able to be successfully brought about.

[TalonKarrde_X]

The signs Jesus gave were for the disciples of the first century, not the twentieth century.

Here's a verse from Luke 17 that should help us to see that the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy regarding his presence would have a dual fulfillment, not only a first century one. At Luke 17:22 he says to the disciples: 'Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but you will not see [it]'.
Since John lived to the end of the first century then, the days of the Son of man (Christ's presence) must come at a later time period.

[guestman]

Erm, that's not at all what Matt. 24:28 says... Come on, you're better than that.



The signs Jesus gave were for the disciples of the first century, not the twentieth century.



Jesus was already reigning as king in the first century. See Matt. 27:11, 37; John 18:37; 19:19; Acts 17:7; 2 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 1:5.

The apostle Peter tied Jesus invisible "promised presence" with the "last days" at 2 Peter 3:3, 4. However, you and a whole host of others discount the evidence, which is not surprising. In Noah's day, everyone except Noah and his family, turned away from what God had told Noah, perhaps even laughing in his face and mocking him. Their laughter stopped in 2370 B.C.E. when "the deluge of waters occurred on the earth".(Gen 7:6) Over the course of 40 days and 40 nights (Gen 7:4), the "waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered."(Gen 7:19)

Note what Peter said about the Noachian Flood. After having shown that many would ridicule the evidence of Jesus "promised presence", he now says: " For according to their wish this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water."(2 Pet 3:5, 6) Most do not get the sense of the evidence then nor of today.

Therefore, "according to their wish", these either throw aside the evidence or never give any consideration to the events that have been adding up over nearly a century. Peter gave admonition to the 1st century Christians, telling them: "However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones....Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered."(2 Pet 3:8, 10)

God's day of judgment will arrive unexpectedly for almost all of mankind, as a "thief." Jesus said to all genuine Christians: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."(Matt 24:42) During Jesus "promised presence" that began with his being "crowned" king of God's kingdom in 1914 (Rev 6:2), there has been a worldwide witness and warning work by Jehovah's Witnesses as Jesus commanded, for he said: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."(Matt 24:14)

This one feature alone, of a global witness campaign, gives evidence that we are in the "last days" or Jesus "promised presence" before ' the end comes.' This feature of the "sign" was not for the 1st century alone, for Jesus said that "all the inhabited earth" would receive "a witness" and "then the end will come."

At a parallel account at Luke 21, Jesus said: "But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man."(Luke 21:34-36)

At Matthew 27:11, 37, Jesus is seen as king, but his installation was far into the future. Just as David had to wait approximately 18 years after his being anointed by Samuel before his becoming king of Israel (1 Sam 16:11-13; 2 Sam 5:1-3), so likewise did Jesus have to wait for considerable time before his enthronement.

Daniel 7:13, 14 says that, after a "small horn"(picturing Britain that ascended to a world power in the 18th century, Dan 7:7, 8) had come into existence, that ' someone like a son of man (Jesus) gained access to the Ancient of Days (Jehovah God)' and "to him there was given rulership and dignity and kingdom." Furthermore, Daniel 2:44 says that during our time period, that "in the days of those kings (the kings that are ruling during the time of "the feet and the toes" of the "image", Dan 2:41), the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin." Most cannot assemble the details nor make sense of these scriptures.

Most will be "weighed down" with the mundane affairs of life, unaware of either the time period or what will soon happen, just as in "the days of Noah." Jesus "promised presence" is meaningless to them. Furthermore, to show that his taking the reigns of God's kingdom was far into the future, Jesus gave an illustration, saying: "A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return." The "man of noble birth" is Jesus, and in which he recognized that his becoming king was far away into the future from the 1st century C.E.

Revelation 12 provides more details of the kingdom, represented as "a male child" that was born to the "woman".(Rev 12:5) Satan the Devil wanted to prevent the kingdom from its becoming operational in 1914, strongly desiring to "devour her child."(Rev 12:4) Its coming to "life" means his eventual destruction by means of God's kingdom (Rev 20:10), and so Satan tried to prevent this, with ' war breaking out in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and its angels '.Rev 12:7)

Satan was unsuccessful, in which ' no place was found for them any longer in heaven.'(Rev 12:8) Hence, "so down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."(Rev 12:9)

With the casting out of Satan and his demons from heaven "down to the earth", now there was "woe for the earth and for the sea."(Rev 12:12) He is the one that caused World War I (and subsequent wars), whereby it "was granted (by Jehovah God) to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another."(Rev 6:4) Great visible woes have been the "order of the day" since then, that provide "eagles" (Greek aetos, G105) or spiritually keen-sighted ones with evidence of the Jesus "promised presence" since 1914. These can "mentally put the pieces together".(Greek sy·ni´e·mi)

Alan Greenspan, former chairman of United States Federal Reserve Board, recalled from his student days a statement by Economics Professor Benjamin M.*Anderson (1886-1949): “Those who have an adult’s recollection and an adult’s understanding of the world which preceded World War*I look back upon it with a great nostalgia. There was a sense of security then which has never since existed.”—Economics and the Public Welfare.

[Nihil Obstat]

Lol, yeah, that's one way. By studying the Scriptures to that depth.

Okay, thanks for explaining why you believe that Jesus' presence began invisibly in 1914. But taking a time frame in Scripture having the unit of years, and then converting that time frame from years to days - that's one thing - but it's an entirely different thing to then take that modified time frame, strip the number of its new unit of days, and attach that number to the first unit of years. That's not prophetic...

[Nihil Obstat]

ἀετός...

1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle...

So, the only reason that the word is sometimes translated as vulture, is because the verse also mentions a dead body. The word itself, means eagle.

And since dead bodies are the reason these birds are gathering, it's fitting to translate the word as "vultures", as I said.

[Nihil Obstat]

1914 was a pivotal year in human history.

But was it the pivotal year in Jewish history? No, it wasn't.

[Nihil Obstat]

Here's a verse from Luke 17 that should help us to see that the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy regarding his presence would have a dual fulfillment, not only a first century one...

How can Jesus' presence as you understand it have a dual fulfillment?

[Bandit]

Lol, yeah, that's one way. By studying the Scriptures to that depth. Nihil also asked for historical evidence, and we can also look at world events to see when Christ's presence began. 1914 ...

Um, but didn't Jesus say in Matthew 28, "and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." So how then is His supposedly new presence since 1914 any different than His declared presence until the end of the age? (I think you have been duped into believing something that is very unbiblical.)

[markedward]

I don't understand why Jehovah's Witnesses defend the 1914 'invisible presence of Jesus' prediction of The Watchtower when virtually all of the related predictions by The Watchtower utterly failed:

The Jews were not 'restored to God's favor' in 1914, unless by that prediction they meant Germany was being steered on a course that resulted in the Jews being massacred in the millions. 'Imperfect men' continued to rule the world after 1914, and 'worldwide anarachy' did not take place after 1914. World War I did not culminate in Armageddon or a rapture (nor in any of the years predicted after that failed to happen). Jerusalem was not made the world capital in a globally restored earth anytime after 1925.

Listing a whole bunch of failed predictions doesn't prove anything, but it severely undermines the credibility of The Watchtower. On top of this, The Watchtower overrode several of C.T. Russell's teachings about when Jesus became king, when the resurrection would happen, etc. Who exactly was receiving divine revelation here that all Jehovah's Witnesses must trust and defend those teachings? Russell? The Watchtower? Both? Neither?

What I'm getting at is that, from an outsider perspective: Why trust and defend The Watchtower's interpretation of Scripture and historical events when it comes the 1914 'invisible presence of Jesus' if they got so many predictions wrong in the past? Would this not make The Watchtower a century-old equivalent of people like Ronald Weinland or Harold Camping?

[TalonKarrde_X]

Okay, thanks for explaining why you believe that Jesus' presence began invisibly in 1914. But taking a time frame in Scripture having the unit of years, and then converting that time frame from years to days - that's one thing - but it's an entirely different thing to then take that modified time frame, strip the number of its new unit of days, and attach that number to the first unit of years. That's not prophetic...

Actually, the verse says, 'seven times'. This being seven periods of an appointed alotment of time. Thus, it is a bit more inclusive than simply saying, 'seven years'.
In the minor fulfillment, Nebuchadnezzar has the seven times pass over him, and this is understood to mean seven years. How long should the seven times be in the major fulfillment of the prophecy? The time period of the rulership of the beast-like kingdoms begins with Babylon, as shown in chapter 7, and continues through atleast Persia, Greece, and Rome; this being a period of some centuries. How would the period of seven times, covering their rulership and beyond, be determined differently then?

But was it the pivotal year in Jewish history? No, it wasn't.

The Jewish system was brought to its conclusion in 70AD with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews. After this point, the Jews are no longer considered Jehovah's chosen people. So, I don't see what relevance your point has.

How can Jesus' presence as you understand it have a dual fulfillment?

I'm not sure I get what you are asking. Do you mean, how can a prophecy have more than one fulfillment? If so, it is actually quite common for Bible prophecies to have more than one fulfillment. Bible prophecies can have either a single fulfillment, a dual fulfillment consisting of a minor and a major fulfillment, or they can have a triple fulfillment which usually consists of two dual fulfillments which overlap (the first two form a minor and major fulfillment pair, and then the second and third form a minor and major fulfillment pair).
An example of a dual fulfillment was with Nebuchadnezzar having seven times pass over him during which time his heart was changed to that of a beast. In the minor fulfillment, shortly after the prophecy was given, Nebuchadnezzar literally had a 'madness' come over him for a period of seven years. Then in the major fulfillment, the beast-like kingdoms, which Nebuchadnezzar had symbolically represented in the minor fulfillment, are given rulership for a period of seven times, however, that seven times is of a longer duration than seven years because this is a part of the major fulfillment of the prophecy.

Um, but didn't Jesus say in Matthew 28, "and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." So how then is His supposedly new presence since 1914 any different than His declared presence until the end of the age? (I think you have been duped into believing something that is very unbiblical.)

Yes, he is 'with' his disciples throughout this system. Notice that in Matthew 24, Jesus' answer is given in regard to a two-fold question. His disciples ask him not only what would be the sign of his presence, but also the sign of the conclusion of the system of things (or age; a period denoted by a particular characteristic of some sort). Thus, his answer, is a description of the sign of both his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things.
In the first century fulfillment, the system that was to be concluded was the Jewish system of temple worship; that is why the discussion was begun after Jesus had lamented the coming destruction upon Jerusalem and its temple. In the second fulfillment, the system which is to be concluded is Satan's system of rulership over the world, which will usher in the new era of God's kingdom with Jesus as king.
Daniel chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 12 give the answer to your question regarding what is different, or what changes in 1914; Jesus stands up in kingdom power as he is enthroned as king in God's kingdom.

I don't understand why Jehovah's Witnesses defend the 1914 'invisible presence of Jesus' prediction of The Watchtower when virtually all of the related predictions by The Watchtower utterly failed:

The Jews were not 'restored to God's favor' in 1914, unless by that prediction they meant Germany was being steered on a course that resulted in the Jews being massacred in the millions. 'Imperfect men' continued to rule the world after 1914, and 'worldwide anarachy' did not take place after 1914. World War I did not culminate in Armageddon or a rapture (nor in any of the years predicted after that failed to happen). Jerusalem was not made the world capital in a globally restored earth anytime after 1925.

Listing a whole bunch of failed predictions doesn't prove anything, but it severely undermines the credibility of The Watchtower. On top of this, The Watchtower overrode several of C.T. Russell's teachings about when Jesus became king, when the resurrection would happen, etc. Who exactly was receiving divine revelation here that all Jehovah's Witnesses must trust and defend those teachings? Russell? The Watchtower? Both? Neither?

What I'm getting at is that, from an outsider perspective: Why trust and defend The Watchtower's interpretation of Scripture and historical events when it comes the 1914 'invisible presence of Jesus' if they got so many predictions wrong in the past? Would this not make The Watchtower a century-old equivalent of people like Ronald Weinland or Harold Camping?

Understanding Bible prophecy, is not really about making predictions. We don't decide what will happen. God has decided what He will do, and he has let us know in advance by writing it in the Bible. When He decides that it is time for his servants to know a thing, then He allows them to gain the understanding from their study of the Bible.
One of the things that God has said that He will do, is to establish a faithful and wise slave class during the time period of Christ's presence (Luke 12:42-44). This does not mean that this group will be perfect and all-knowing, nor should we expect that. Rather, for this established group, the 'light' would continue to get brighter as they continue to study the Scriptures and apply what they learn (Prov 4:18). It is highly significant to point out that Jehovah's Witnesses have only been so named since 1931, prior to that, the Bible Students or Millenial Dawners were not yet priviledged to bear God's name.
As regards 'trust and defend The Watchtower's interpretation of Scripture', I personally, never consider anything that anyone says as being true, unless I can confirm it for myself in some way. Regarding spiritual matters, this means reading it and understanding it for myself from the Bible. Neither do I ever expect anyone else to 'just take my word for it', but I always try to explain things from the Bible.

[guestman]

But was it the pivotal year in Jewish history? No, it wasn't.

This has nothing to do with Jewish history, but rather with the installation of Jesus as king of God's kingdom, that was "set up in the days of those kings" or 1914.(Dan 2:44)

However, concerning Jewish history, note what Jesus said just days before his death, in viewing Jerusalem, said: "If you, even you, had discerned (Greek egnos, form of ginosko, meaning knowledge) in this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”("inspected", Greek episkopes, Luke 19:42-44)

Thus, the Jews as a nation never discerned the time period that was at hand, their ' inspection' by the "messenger of the covenant", Jesus Christ.(Mal 3:1) So likewise today. Most will never discern the time period we are living in, that Jesus was enthroned as king of God's kingdom in 1914 and has since been going forth "subduing in the midst of (his) enemies."(Ps 110:2)

Because of the Jews failure to discern the arrival of the Messiah, despite Daniel 9:24, 25 giving the date, they were just too busy with being religious instead of being watchful. For their lack of watchfulness and discernment, the Jews paid the penalty with their destruction in 70 C.E.(from April 3 -August 25) at the hands of the Roman legions under the command of General Titus, in which 1.1 million died and 97,000 were taken captive, only to suffer a horrendous death most likely in the Roman arena.

It is no different today, for that is why Jesus said that most would be busy with the mundane or everyday affairs of life, "taking no note" (Matt 24:37-39), failing to discern his ruling as king and to "keep on the watch" for his "coming" (Matt 24:30) that will mean permanent removal of the worldwide "system of things."(Matt 24:3:Luke 21:35)

[TalonKarrde_X]

And since dead bodies are the reason these birds are gathering, it's fitting to translate the word as "vultures", as I said.

I was working on something else, and I came across this in the book of Job.

39:27 Or is it at your order that an eagle flies upward
And that it builds its nest high up,

39:28 That on a crag it resides and stays during the night
Upon the tooth of a crag and an inaccessible place?

39:29 From there it has to search for food;
Far into the distance its eyes keep looking.

39:30 And its young ones themselves keep sipping up blood;
And where the slain are, there it is.

[Nihil Obstat]

Do you see in Job 39:27-30 some "prophetic" dual meaning about keen spiritual eyesight?