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Thread: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

  1. #91
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    Do you see in Job 39:27-30 some "prophetic" dual meaning about keen spiritual eyesight?
    I thought you could do some research into the topic, if you wanted. Anyways, I found some interesting stuff.

    THE FALCON AND THE EAGLE
    With more probing questions to correct Job’s thinking, Jehovah continued: 'Is it owing to your understanding that the falcon soars up, that it spreads its wings to the south wind? Or is it at your order that an eagle flies upward and that it builds its nest high up, that on a crag it resides and stays during the night upon the tooth of a crag and an inaccessible place? From there it has to search for food; far into the distance its eyes keep looking. And its young ones themselves keep sipping up blood; and where the slain are, there it is' (Job 39:26-30).
    Is it owing to man’s understanding that the falcon is remarkable for the force with which it flies? No, it is not because of human wisdom that the falcon spreads its wings to the south wind, indicating great strength of wing.
    God now turns his attention to the eagle, sometimes called the king of birds. God had opened the series of questions regarding the animal creation with the lion, the king of beasts. (Job 38:39) Now, closing this section of his speech, the Almighty asks Job about the king of the birds. Is it due to Job’s order that the eagle is remarkable in four ways?
    First, the height of the eagle’s flight. The eagle 'flies upward', to immense heights. No bird is said to soar as high or to have such strength of wing. This power of flight has come from God.
    Then there is the security of the eagle’s nest, because 'it builds its nest high up', even 'on a crag it resides .*.*. upon the tooth of a crag'. Other birds are content with lower elevations, but the eagle builds on inaccessible heights, and thus sets her young out of reach of danger. Is it at man’s order that this bird makes her nest her castle, building it upon the 'tooth of a crag'?
    Third is the eagle’s farsightedness. God says: 'Far into the distance its eyes keep looking'. No man gave the eagle its penetrating vision, enabling it to scan the wide expanse of the country and pierce into the deep ravines. Eagles have the peculiar ability to change the focus of their eyes rapidly, a great help in catching their prey. Commenting on their vision, Rutherford Platt writes in The River of Life:
    'We find the championship eyes of the whole animal kingdom high in the daylight sky - they are the eyes of the eagle, the vulture, and the hawk. So keen are they that they can look down from a thousand feet in the air and spot a rabbit or a grouse half hidden in the grass.
    'Sharp eyesight of the hunter eye is caused by the reflection of the object falling on a dense clump of pointed, cone-shaped cells. This tiny spot in the back of the eyeball absorbs light rays from the object through thousands of points, in a special manner which summons up a clear image in the mind. For almost all hunters, such as the skunk, the cougar, and ourselves, the single spot of cones is enough; we look straight ahead and approach directly the object of our gaze. But not so the eagle or the hawk, which, having fixed the rabbit in the grass with its sharp focusing cones, may then approach by a long, slanting dive. This causes the image of the target to move across the back of the eyeball on a curved path. Such a path is precisely plotted for the eagle eye so that instead of a clump of cones the diving bird has a curved path of cones. As the eagle zooms down, the rabbit in the grass is thus held in constant focus. It may seem to be a very small point that the curving path of the focusing cells in the eyeball corresponds exactly to the curving path of the dive, but it is of great importance to the individuals involved, and I wonder who thought of it'.
    The Creator did! He, not man, has conferred on the eagle this marvelous eyesight.
    Fourth is the remarkable way the eagle has of maintaining herself and her young. Some species of eagles do not disdain the carcasses of animals that have recently died, and thus their food supply comes from two sources: What is already dead and what they catch. Eagles prey upon small animals, which they seize and carry to their young ones. Baby eagles, still too feeble to devour flesh, sip up the blood of the prey. So the eagle maintains herself and her family by swiftness of wings and keenness of sight and the ability to capture prey and also by finding and searching out the bodies of the slain. 'Where the slain are, there it is'.

    EAGLE
    [Heb., ne′sher; Aramaic, neshar′; Gr., a·e·tos′].
    A large bird of prey. Some believe that the Hebrew name derives from a root word meaning “tear in pieces or lacerate.” Others view it as onomatopoeic (that is, a name whose very sound suggests the thing meant) and believe that ne′sher represents a “rushing sound,” or “gleaming flash,” hence a bird that dives after its prey, plummeting downward with a rushing sound and like flashing light through the air. In either case, the Hebrew term well describes the eagle, whose lightning plunge from great heights causes a whining sound as the air rushes through its widespread pinions (the outer wing feathers). A bird of prey and a drinker of blood (Job 39:27,*30), the eagle was included among those birds listed as “unclean” by the Mosaic Law.—Le 11:13; De 14:12.
    Palestinian Varieties. Among the eagles to be found in Israel today are the imperial eagle (Aquila heliaca), the golden eagle (Aquila chrysaëtos), and the short-toed eagle (Circaëtus gallicus). The golden eagle, named thus because of the golden sheen on its head and nape, is an impressive dark-brown bird that measures about 1 m (3 ft) in length, with a total wingspan of about 2 m (6.5 ft). Eagles characteristically have a rather broad head with a projecting ridge above the eyes; a short, powerful, hooked beak; sturdy legs; and sharp, powerful talons.
    ‘Carried on wings of eagles’—what basis is there for such a figure of speech?
    The Sinai region is called “eagle country,” where the birds soar and glide on their strong, broad wings. So, the liberated Israelites gathered at Mount Sinai could well appreciate the aptness of the picture conveyed by God’s words, that he had carried them out of Egypt “on wings of eagles.” (Ex 19:4; compare Re 12:14.) Nearly 40 years later Moses could compare Jehovah’s leading of Israel through the wilderness to that of an eagle that “stirs up its nest, hovers over its fledglings, spreads out its wings, takes them, carries them on its pinions.” (De 32:9-12) When the young eaglets reach the time to begin flying, the parent eagle stirs them up, fluttering and flapping its own wings to convey the idea to its young, and then edges or lures them out of the nest so that they try out their wings.
    Though some have doubted that the eagle ever actually carries the young on its back, a guide in Scotland is reported by Sir W.*B. Thomas as testifying concerning the golden eagle that “the parent birds, after urging, and sometimes shoving the youngster into the air, will swoop underneath and rest the struggler for a moment on their wings and back.” (The Yeoman’s England, London, 1934, p. 135) An observer in the United States is quoted in the Bulletin of the Smithsonian Institution (1937, No. 167, p. 302) as saying: “The mother started from the nest in the crags, and roughly handling the young one, she allowed him to drop, I should say, about ninety feet; then she would swoop down under him, wings spread, and he would alight on her back. She would soar to the top of the range with him and repeat the process.*.*.*. My father and I watched this, spellbound, for over an hour.” G.*R. Driver, commenting on these statements, says: “The picture [at Deuteronomy 32:11] then is not a mere flight of fancy but is based on actual fact.”—Palestine Exploration Quarterly, London, 1958, pp. 56,*57.
    Lofty Nest and Farsightedness. The nest-building habits of the eagle are emphasized in God’s questioning of Job at Job 39:27-30. The nest or aerie may be in a high tree or on the crag of a cliff or rocky canyon. Over the years the nest may grow to be as much as 2 m (6.5 ft) high, that of some eagles coming to weigh as much as a ton! The apparent security and inaccessibility of the eagle’s nest were also used figuratively by the prophets in their messages against the lofty kingdom of Edom in the rugged mountains of the Arabah.—Jer 49:16; Ob 3,*4.
    The farsightedness of the eagle, mentioned at Job 39:29, is borne out by Rutherford Platt in his book The River of Life (1956, pp. 215, 216), which also shows the unusual design of the eye of the eagle, testifying to the Creator’s wisdom. The book says:
    “We find the championship eyes of the whole animal kingdom .*.*. [in] the eyes of the eagle, the vulture, and the hawk. So keen are they that they can look down from a thousand feet in the air and spot a rabbit or a grouse half hidden in the grass.
    “Sharp eyesight of the hunter eye is caused by the reflection of the object falling on a dense clump of pointed, cone-shaped cells. This tiny spot in the back of the eyeball absorbs light rays from the object through thousands of points, in a special manner which summons up a clear image in the mind. For almost all hunters, such as the skunk, the cougar, and ourselves, the single spot of cones is enough; we look straight ahead and approach directly the object of our gaze. But not so the eagle or the hawk, which, having fixed the rabbit in the grass with its sharp focusing cones, may then approach by a long, slanting dive. This causes the image of the target to move across the back of the eyeball on a curved path. Such a path is precisely plotted for the eagle eye so that instead of a clump of cones the diving bird has a curved path of cones. As the eagle zooms down, the rabbit in the grass is thus held in constant focus.”—Compare Jer 49:22.
    Flight Abilities. The eagle’s swiftness is highlighted in many texts. (2Sa 1:23; Jer 4:13; La 4:19; Hab 1:8) There are reports of eagles surpassing a speed of 130 km/hr (80 mph). Solomon warned that wealth “makes wings for itself” like those of a skyward-bound eagle (Pr 23:4,*5), while Job mourned the swiftness of life’s passing, comparing it to the speed of an eagle in search of prey. (Job 9:25,*26) Yet those trusting in Jehovah receive power to go on, as if mounting up on the seemingly tireless wing of the soaring eagle.—Isa 40:31.
    Modern scientists have wondered at “the way of an eagle in the heavens,” as did the writer of Proverbs 30:19. Clarence D.*Cone, Jr., relates the manner in which observation of the majestic and almost effortless soaring of eagles, hawks, and vultures “has helped to lead the way to the discovery of a fundamental mechanism of meteorology.” He shows the manner in which such large birds utilize to the full the dynamic power of the great “bubbles” of heated air that float up from the land because of the heat of the sun and the way in which the “slotted” wing tips of the eagle are so designed aerodynamically that they eliminate air drag on the wing.—Scientific American, April 1962, pp. 131, 138.
    Figurative Usage. This powerful bird of prey was a frequent symbol used by the prophets to represent the warring forces of enemy nations in their sudden and often unexpected attacks. (De 28:49-51; Jer 48:40; 49:22; Ho 8:1) The Babylonian and Egyptian rulers were characterized as eagles. (Eze 17:3,*7) It is notable that in many ancient nations, including Assyria, Persia, and Rome, the figure of the eagle was regularly used on the royal scepters, standards, and steles, even as it has been used in modern times by Germany, the United States, and others.
    Some have questioned the use of the word “eagles” at Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37, holding that the texts must refer instead to vultures, gathered around a carcass. However, although the eagle is not primarily a carrion eater, as is the vulture, it does feed on such dead bodies at times. (Palestine Exploration Quarterly, 1955, p. 9) So too the eagle, though usually a solitary hunter, unlike the gregarious vulture, is known to hunt in pairs occasionally; and the book The Animal Kingdom (Vol. II, p. 965) reports an instance in which “a number of them launched a mass attack upon a prong-horned antelope.” (Edited by F. Drimmer, 1954)
    Another text that many scholars view as applying to the vulture rather than to the eagle is Micah 1:16, which speaks of Israel’s figuratively ‘broadening out its baldness like that of the eagle.’ The eagle’s head is well feathered; even the North American bald eagle is referred to as “bald” only because its white head feathers give it the appearance of baldness from a distance. The griffon vulture (Gyps fulvus), still to be seen in Israel, has only some soft white down on its head, and the neck is sparsely feathered. If the text applies to it, this would indicate that the Hebrew ne′sher has broader application than to the eagle only. It may be noted that the griffon vulture, while not classed by ornithologists as of the same “species” or “genus” as the eagle, is counted as of the same “family” (Accipitridae). Some, however, believe Micah 1:16 has reference to the molting that the eagle undergoes, although this is said to be a gradual and rather inconspicuous process. This molting process, bringing some reduction of activity and strength and followed by a renewal of normal life, may be what the psalmist meant by one’s youth “renewing itself just like that of an eagle.” (Ps 103:5) Others see in this a reference to the relatively long life of the eagle, some having been known to reach an age of 80 years.
    The name Aquila (Ac 18:2) is Latin for eagle.

    VULTURE
    [Hebrew, ra·cham′; ra·cha′mah], Black Vulture [Hebrew, ‛oz·ni·yah′].
    A large carrion-eating bird that renders a very valuable service in lands of warm climate, consuming the dead carcasses and putrefying flesh that might otherwise cause disease. This bird is listed among those declared ‘unclean’ in the Mosaic Law.—Le 11:13,*18; De 14:12,*17.
    In Arabic, a language that is cognate with Hebrew, a word similar to ra·cham′ designates the Egyptian vulture (Neophron percnopterus), often called Pharaoh’s chicken. This bird is white except for its black wings and yellow bill and legs. It is the smallest of the vultures found in Bible lands, being about 65 cm (26 in.) in length. With its bare wrinkled face, large eyes, hooked beak, and curved talons, it is quite repulsive in appearance. Because of its willingness to eat refuse disdained even by other vultures, it is considered the foulest scavenger of the Middle East and, by the same token, the most useful because of the service it performs.
    The griffon vulture (Gyps fulvus) is a yellowish-brown bird measuring about 1.2 m (4 ft) in length, with a wingspan of some 2.7 m (9 ft). The griffon vulture was the symbol of the Egyptian goddess Nekhebet and also appeared on the battle standards of the Egyptians, Assyrians, and Persians.
    The lammergeier, or bearded vulture (Gypaetus barbatus), is a large bird of prey, standing about 1.2 m (4 ft) high. With its long pointed wings that span almost 3 m (10 ft), the lammergeier flies with unusual grace, and wheels effortlessly as it searches the land below for food. Unlike other vultures, the lammergeier has feathers on its head and a beard resembling that of a goat. It has a preference for marrow bones, carrying these to great heights and then dropping them on rocks so that they split open, allowing the bird to reach the marrow within.
    The Hebrew word ‛oz·ni·yah′ evidently refers to the black vulture (Aegypius monachus), the largest bird of prey occurring in Israel. More brown than black, it has the vulture’s characteristic naked head; the neck is blue, the tail wedge-shaped.

    It seems there is some overlap in the nature between the eagle, and other birds of prey, and the vulture. Both can be birds of prey, and both can be carrion birds. So, too, the words that primarily refer to eagles and to vultures, can also be used to refer to the other for this very reason. Thus, ἀετός means 'eagle' in the sense of 'bird of prey', and γὺψός means 'vulture' in the sense of 'carrion bird'.

  2. #92
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Jesus is not a mere man, because He was conceived in a virgin without a human father. He is not an angel, because He receives worship. He is not like the judges of Israel, because they were not to be worshipped either. Did the judges of Israel have authority to forgive sins? When Jesus exercised His authority to forgive sins, the Pharisees understood the ramifications of such a claim perfectly. Additionally, God said He would not give His Glory with another ( Isaiah 42:8), yet Jesus receives all the glory that is due to the Father ( John 5:23). Lastly, God says in Isaiah that every knee would bow to Him ( Isaiah 45:23), in Philippians Paul says that every knee will bow to Christ ( Philippians 2:10). The fact that Jesus has the authority to forgive sins and that He receives worship is inescapable proof that He is Diety. He is also Immutable ( Hebrews 13:8), Omnipresent ( Matthew 18:20), and Eternal ( Micah 5:2).
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  3. #93
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Jesus is not a mere man, because He was conceived in a virgin without a human father. He is not an angel, because He receives worship. He is not like the judges of Israel, because they were not to be worshipped either. Did the judges of Israel have authority to forgive sins? When Jesus exercised His authority to forgive sins, the Pharisees understood the ramifications of such a claim perfectly. Additionally, God said He would not give His Glory with another ( Isaiah 42:8), yet Jesus receives all the glory that is due to the Father ( John 5:23). Lastly, God says in Isaiah that every knee would bow to Him ( Isaiah 45:23), in Philippians Paul says that every knee will bow to Christ ( Philippians 2:10). The fact that Jesus has the authority to forgive sins and that He receives worship is inescapable proof that He is Diety. He is also Immutable ( Hebrews 13:8), Omnipresent ( Matthew 18:20), and Eternal ( Micah 5:2).
    Jesus is a deity, but just not Almighty God. At Micah 5:2, it does not say that his "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (King James Bible), but that one "whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite." The Hebrew word at the end is not adh, meaning everlasting, but ohlam, meaning "time indefinite" or "hidden or concealed time".(Strong's H5769) At Psalms 9:5, both adh and ohlam are used, in which it says that "their name (of the wicked) you have wiped out to time indefinite, even forever."(New World Translation)

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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by guestman View Post
    Jesus is a deity, but just not Almighty God. At Micah 5:2, it does not say that his "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (King James Bible), but that one "whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite." The Hebrew word at the end is not adh, meaning everlasting, but ohlam, meaning "time indefinite" or "hidden or concealed time".(Strong's H5769) At Psalms 9:5, both adh and ohlam are used, in which it says that "their name (of the wicked) you have wiped out to time indefinite, even forever."(New World Translation)
    Saying that Jesus is a diety but not Almighty God is polytheism. There is only one true God. Either Jesus is Almighty or He is not true. I hold that He is the Almighty True God. He is the true God and Eternal Life. 1 John 5:20
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  5. #95
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    By their fruits ye shall know them.

    You say that the Watchtower isn't perfect and that we shoudn't expect them to be.

    Would God allow only one organisation (The Watchtower) to interpret the scriptures but to sometimes not do it correctly? Why doesn't God then do it himself perfectly and without error and cut out the middle man?

    We believe He does, though the Holy Spirit and the FINAL revelation in Jesus Christ. God is perfect, and surely he would want his word to be correctly interpereted as to distinguish between true and false doctrine?
    Jesus Christ....who do you say He is?


    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Saying that Jesus is a diety but not Almighty God is polytheism. There is only one true God. Either Jesus is Almighty or He is not true. I hold that He is the Almighty True God. He is the true God and Eternal Life. 1 John 5:20
    That Jesus is a deity or "a god" is seen in what the apostle John wrote at John 1:18: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."

    Many Bibles say "only-begotten Son". However, the wording of "only-begotten god" is accurate, for among the oldest known Greek manuscripts of the book of John have this rendering, such Papyrus Bodmer 2 (P66), Papyrus Bodmer 14,15 (P75), both of about 200 C.E., and both being located at Geneva, Switzerland, the Vatican MS 1209 of the fourth century, located at Vatican City, Rome, as well as the Codex Ephraemi rescriptus of the fifth century, located at Paris, France. Thus, Jesus is "a god" but not "God Almighty"(Gen 17:1), and part of a trinity.

    And had you read 1 John 5:20 more closely, it can readily be determined that the words "This is the true God and life everlasting" was not directed to Jesus but toward his Father, for it says that "we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting." Thus, John points to the "true one" who "by means of his Son", gave us "knowledge of the true one", God.

    As John 1:18 says of Jesus as the "only-begotten god", he ' explained the Father ' when on the earth. Hence, the "true God" is not Jesus, but Jehovah God. The term "the true God" is used in the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament, over 400 times and always applies to Jehovah God.("the true God", Hebrew e Elohim, Gen 6:8, 9, 11; 20:4, 6)

  7. #97
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    That Jesus is a deity or "a god" is seen in what the apostle John wrote at John 1:18: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."

    Many Bibles say "only-begotten Son". However, the wording of "only-begotten god" is accurate, for among the oldest known Greek manuscripts of the book of John have this rendering, such Papyrus Bodmer 2 (P66), Papyrus Bodmer 14,15 (P75), both of about 200 C.E., and both being located at Geneva, Switzerland, the Vatican MS 1209 of the fourth century, located at Vatican City, Rome, as well as the Codex Ephraemi rescriptus of the fifth century, located at Paris, France. Thus, Jesus is "a god" but not "God Almighty"(Gen 17:1), and part of a trinity.
    Isaiah 43:10- Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen : that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed , neither shall there be after me.

    Isaiah 43:11- I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Note: ( There is no saviour but YHWH, yet Jesus is called Saviour, is He not?)


    Isaiah 44:6- Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isaiah 44:8- Fear ye not, neither be afraid : have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isaiah 44:24- Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer , and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

    Note. ( Notice that YHWH says that He spread the earth abroad by Himself, yet the Bible says that God created all things through Christ and the Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit was also involved in creation, showing that Father, Son, and Spirit are one God.)


    Isaiah 45:5- I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Isaiah 45: 21- Tell ye, and bring them near ; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour ; there is none beside me.

    Isaiah 45:23- I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return , That unto me every knee shall bow , every tongue shall swear .

    Philippians 2:10- That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heardand seen , I fell down to worshipbefore the feet of the angel which shewedme these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I amthy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    ...yet in Hebrews, it says of Christ...

    Hebrews 1: 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith , And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Yet again, the angel in Revelation said...


    See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. ( Revelation 22:9)

    There is one GOD, and He became a man in the Incarnation to save us from our sins.

    Colossians 2:9- For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Last edited by glad4mercy; Jan 2nd 2012 at 11:21 PM.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  8. #98
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Isaiah 43:10- Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen : that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed , neither shall there be after me.

    Isaiah 43:11- I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Note: ( There is no saviour but YHWH, yet Jesus is called Saviour, is He not?)


    Isaiah 44:6- Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isaiah 44:8- Fear ye not, neither be afraid : have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isaiah 44:24- Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer , and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

    Note. ( Notice that YHWH says that He spread the earth abroad by Himself, yet the Bible says that God created all things through Christ and the Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit was also involved in creation, showing that Father, Son, and Spirit are one God.)


    Isaiah 45:5- I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Isaiah 45: 21- Tell ye, and bring them near ; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour ; there is none beside me.

    Isaiah 45:23- I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return , That unto me every knee shall bow , every tongue shall swear .
    Your line of reasoning is faulty to draw the conclusion that the "Father, Son and Spirit are one God" from the Scriptures in Isaiah. At Isaiah 43:11, God challenges the nations opposing his people to furnish proof of the godship they claim for their mighty ones and their idol-gods, calling on them to do so by foretelling similar acts of salvation or judgment and then bringing them to pass. Their impotence in this respect demonstrates their idols to be ‘mere wind and unreality.’(Isa 41:1-10, 21-29)

    In addition, at Isaiah 43:10, it says of the nation of Israel, that "you are my witnesses, is the utterance of Jehovah.....Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none." Hence, this one Scripture identifies Jehovah as God, with no others measuring up to being Almighty as he is, for verse 11 says that "I - I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior ("savior", Hebrew yasha)."

    Jehovah proved his power to save, for miraculous events are mentioned at Isaiah 43:2, which says that "in case you should pass through the waters (as at the Red sea in 1513 B.C.E, Ex 14:29), I will be with you; and through the rivers (as when Elisha struck the waters of the Jordan with his official garment, dividing them, 2 Kings 2:8) they will not flood over you. In case you you should walk through the fire (as did the three young Hebrews in Babylon, Dan 3:25), you will not be scorched, neither will the flame itself singe you."

    Being called "savior" means "somebody who rescues somebody or something from harm or danger."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) This could mean anyone, for there have been any number of people that have been rescued from danger by others, who proved to be their "savior". The word "savior" is not always applied to God, but others are also named this.

    For example, Othniel, Caleb's younger brother, was called a "savior" (Hebrew yasha, literally "to be safe", Strong's H3467) of the nation of Israel.(Judges 3:9) Later, Ehud was sent forth as a "savior" or yasha for the Israelites.(Judges 3:15) Later still Jephthah presented himself, with God's help, as a "savior" for the Israelites from the "sons of Ammon".(Judges 12:1-3) David was a "savior" of the "inhabitants of Keilah".(1 Sam 23:5) God is the "Savior of those upright in heart".(Ps 7:10) And Jesus is called "a Savior".(Luke 2:11)

    Hence, the word savior can be applied to anyone who has saved some else. However, there is only person who can save a person from death. Isaiah 45:21 reiterates that besides Jehovah God "there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me." Earlier, at Isaiah 45:5, God said: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God." Thus, there is only one "true God", Jehovah, as Jesus himself said in prayer to his Father, saying "you, the only true God and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ".(John17:3)

  9. #99
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Your line of reasoning is faulty to draw the conclusion that the "Father, Son and Spirit are one God" from the Scriptures in Isaiah. At Isaiah 43:11
    Yet you say that YHWH is Almighty God, and the LOGOS, ( Jesus in His preincarnate state), is not Almighty but is a lesser god. The Gospel of John, the book of Colossians, etc. say that Jesus made all things. So according to your logic God Almighty created all things through a lesser god. This is in direct contradiction to Isaiah 44: 24, in which YHWH says that He stretched forth the earth by Himself. If Jesus is not YHWH, then He had nothing to do with creation, because YHWH clearly said that He alone stretched forth the earth. Yet John and Paul clearly say that Jesus created all things and that All things were made by or through Him.

    If Jesus is not Almighty, why did He receive worship, and why did He take on Himself the authority to forgive sins? You still have not answered this. Who did Stephen call upon to receive His Spirit when He was being stoned? Would this not be considered prayer?

    How is Jesus able to be present in multiple places similtaneously? ( I hold that He is OMNIPRESENT, but if you wish to dispute this, at least you must acknowledge that He is not at this time limited by locality). Who else but Almighty God can be at more than one place at a time? Can satan? Can any angel? In Revelation, Jesus was in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, ( churches), and He is always in the midst when two or three gather in His Name. He lives in my heart, and he lives in the hearts of every believer. Do you believe this presence is literal, or do you spiritualize this away? So my question to you is, "Can a created being be present throughout the universe similtaneously?"

    No matter what arguments you give, you will never be able to escape the fact that to say that the LOGOS was and is a lesser god, and not Almighty, (yet is able to forgive sins, create ex nihilo, receive worship, and possesses every attribute of God), is polytheism plain and simple.

    What does it mean that Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Is He the fullness of Almighty or just the fullness of a lesser god. To call Jesus a god but not the God dishoners both the Father and the Son.

    If you can demonstrate logically that the belief system that Jesus is a god worthy of worship and praise and honor and glory, and has been given all authority in heaven and earth, (yet He is not Almighty God) is monotheistic, please do. Do you worship Jesus as you do YHWH? Who is Jesus to you? Is He worthy of all honor and power and glory and praise and worship and trust and dominion? If so, I would dare say that He is the Almighty.

    For example, Othniel, Caleb's younger brother, was called a "savior" (Hebrew yasha, literally "to be safe", Strong's H3467) of the nation of Israel.(Judges 3:9) Later, Ehud was sent forth as a "savior" or yasha for the Israelites.(Judges 3:15) Later still Jephthah presented himself, with God's help, as a "savior" for the Israelites from the "sons of Ammon".(Judges 12:1-3) David was a "savior" of the "inhabitants of Keilah".(1 Sam 23:5) God is the "Savior of those upright in heart".(Ps 7:10) And Jesus is called "a Savior".(Luke 2:11)

    Hence, the word savior can be applied to anyone who has saved some else. However, there is only person who can save a person from death. Isaiah 45:21 reiterates that besides Jehovah God "there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me." Earlier, at Isaiah 45:5, God said: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God." Thus, there is only one "true God", Jehovah, as Jesus himself said in prayer to his Father, saying "you, the only true God and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ".(John17:3)
    Of course the word saviour can be used generically of others besides God, but you are missing the real issue, which is "What does Jesus save us from?" Did Othniel or Moses or Samson have the power to save their people from their sins? Even if Othniel or Moses had been sinless, ( an impossibility, yet for arguments sake...), could their blood have washed away my or you sins? Jesus saves us from sin, death, and the wrath to come. There is only one who can save from sin and that is God Almighty. Moses, Samuel, David, all the host of heaven combined could never have accomplished anything at all to bring reconcilliation between man and God and salvation from sin, death, and the wrath to come. Only Jesus could. So in this sense, He is Saviour in a way that no man or angel or created thing could possibly be.

    How can you compare Jesus and His Eternal Salvation to the temporal salvation of mere men? The salvation that I have received from Christ is infinitely greater than the temporary, incomplete, and limited salvations that you mentioned. Othniel saved his people from hostile foriegners, yet He could not transform their hearts as Christ can.

    Do you not realize that the root problem that the recipients of Isaiah's prophecy and what they needed to be saved from was sin, and not the Babylonians? The Babylonians were merely a tool in God's hand to bring them to repentance.

    Thus, there is only one "true God", Jehovah, as Jesus himself said in prayer to his Father, saying "you, the only true God and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ".(John17:3)
    So if there is only one true God, and Jesus is a god but not the God, what kind of god is He? Also, of course the Father sent the Son. We do realize that Jesus was sent, and we also accept His humanity as well as His Diety. The Father sent the Son and the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit, who is also God.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  10. #100
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by MyRock View Post
    By their fruits ye shall know them.

    You say that the Watchtower isn't perfect and that we shoudn't expect them to be.

    Would God allow only one organisation (The Watchtower) to interpret the scriptures but to sometimes not do it correctly? Why doesn't God then do it himself perfectly and without error and cut out the middle man?

    We believe He does, though the Holy Spirit and the FINAL revelation in Jesus Christ. God is perfect, and surely he would want his word to be correctly interpereted as to distinguish between true and false doctrine?
    Could you please answer this question?
    Jesus Christ....who do you say He is?


    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Also I posted this in another thread but I think it's applicable to this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyRock View Post
    Judges 13:9-24
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    9 And God listened to the voice of Manoah, and the Angel of God came to the woman again as she was sitting in the field; but Manoah her husband was not with her. 10 Then the woman ran in haste and told her husband, and said to him, “Look, the Man who came to me the other day has just now appeared to me!”
    11 So Manoah arose and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he said to Him, “Are You the Man who spoke to this woman?”
    And He said, “I am.”
    12 Manoah said, “Now let Your words come to pass! What will be the boy’s rule of life, and his work?”
    13 So the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor may she drink wine or similar drink, nor eat anything unclean. All that I commanded her let her observe.”
    15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You.”
    16 And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.” (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
    17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
    18 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
    19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
    22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
    23 But his wife said to him, “If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”
    24 So the woman bore a son and called his name Samson; and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him.


    The Angel of the Lord. I believe He is the pre-encarnate Christ. The underlined bit (by me) seems to point to the Angel being a manifestation of God Himself.
    Looking at the NWT rendering of verse 22:

    22 Consequently Ma·no´ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” (underline mine)
    Jesus Christ....who do you say He is?


    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

  12. #102
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Even the NWT can confirm Jesus is YHWH. One just has to dig through all of the many Watchtower smokescreens to find nuggets like this. While they have done their best to alter God's Word to fit their doctrines, even their manipulated bible still rings true that Jesus is Almighty YHWH.....there are more examples in it than this. The O.T. and N.T. speak of only one deity, that is YHWH, and we know Him by many names, one of which is Jesus.

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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Following on from Manoah and his wife seeing Angel of the Lord (God) other interesting scripture passages from your own bible to consider:

    Exodus 3:1-22 (NWT)

    1 And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth´ro, the priest of Mid´i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho´reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”

    If the Angel of the Lord is in the flame why is God speaking?

    Also....

    Judges 2:1-23 (NWT)

    Then Jehovah’s angel went up from Gil´gal to Bo´chim and said: “I proceeded to bring YOU up out of Egypt and to bring YOU into the land about which I swore to YOUR forefathers. Furthermore, I said, ‘Never shall I break my covenant with YOU

    It's God that has the convenant with the people, and who took them out of Egypt, but it's Jehovah's anger (Angel of the Lord) which is speaking.

    How would you explain these passages?

    Sorry for all these questions but I look forward to your answers.
    Jesus Christ....who do you say He is?


    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

  14. #104
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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Sorry for the typo, I meant Jehovah's angel, not anger.
    Jesus Christ....who do you say He is?


    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

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    Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ and the Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Yet you say that YHWH is Almighty God, and the LOGOS, ( Jesus in His preincarnate state), is not Almighty but is a lesser god. The Gospel of John, the book of Colossians, etc. say that Jesus made all things. So according to your logic God Almighty created all things through a lesser god. This is in direct contradiction to Isaiah 44: 24, in which YHWH says that He stretched forth the earth by Himself. If Jesus is not YHWH, then He had nothing to do with creation, because YHWH clearly said that He alone stretched forth the earth. Yet John and Paul clearly say that Jesus created all things and that All things were made by or through Him.

    If Jesus is not Almighty, why did He receive worship, and why did He take on Himself the authority to forgive sins? You still have not answered this. Who did Stephen call upon to receive His Spirit when He was being stoned? Would this not be considered prayer?
    The churches fail to grasp Proverbs 8:22-31, whereby concerning "wisdom", it says: "Jehovah himself produced ("produced", Hebrew qanah, meaning "to erect, to create, to procure", Strong's H7069) me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite (Hebrew ohlam meaning "hidden or concealed time", Strong's H769) I was installed, from the start (see Rev 3:14), from times earlier than the earth."(verses 22, 23)

    Verses 30 and 31 now says: "then I came to be beside him as a master worker (Hebrew ’a·mohn´; having the sense of "training", "cunning workman", a "skilled architect", Strong's Concordance H525 and H542), and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

    Though some try to identify this as just "wisdom" personified, that could not be the case, for God's wisdom had no beginning, having existed for eternity, for God is eternal.(Ps 90:2) This, combined with the fact that Jesus himself said that he is "beginning of the creation by God" at Revelation 3;14, that Jesus is spoken as "the wisdom of God" at 1 Corinthians 1:24, and that Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" shows that the one at Proverbs 8:22-31 is Jesus in his prehuman existence and serves as God's "master worker", subservient to his Father. Jesus told the Jews: "My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” (John 5:17) Hence, Jesus works with his Father to accomplish His will, not his own.(Matt 26:39)

    Thus, at Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah did ' stretch out the heavens by himself '(Job 9:8), as alone the Creator, with Jesus assisting him to accomplish it as his "master worker".(Col 1:16) Only Jehovah God is known as our "Grand Creator".(Ec 12:1, Hebrew, Boh·re’ey´kha. The participle of the Hebrew verb “create” is plural to denote grandeur or excellence) The apostle Paul wrote that "there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.....and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."(1 Cor 8:6)

    "All things" came "out of God", but it was "through" Jesus that "all things are". It is like a man having a construction business, who supplies all the materials, blueprints and anything else needed for his top supervisor to assist him in constructing a building. Hence, "God Almighty created all things through a lesser god".

    Of Jesus again, he did not "receive worship". He told Satan, quoting from Deuteronomy 5:9 and 10:20: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship (Greek proskyneseis), and it is to him alone you must render sacred service (Greek la·treu´seis).’” Thus, only Jehovah God is to be worshipped.

    Some Bibles render the Greek base word proskyneo as "worship" in every instance. However, this is not the case, for it can also mean "homage", to "fall down and prostrate", to "bow before", to "fall down at one's feet". Concerning Jesus birth, the King James Bible reads at Matthew 2:2 (and verse 8) of the magi: "Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

    Other Bibles do not render pro·sky·ne´o here as "worship". Young's Bible reads "bow to him", Weymouth's New Testament reads "to do him homage", Darby's Bible also reads "to do him homage". Though these magi may have come to "worship" the infant Jesus, it needs to be remembered that these were pagan astrologers who worshipped the "heavens", not the true God, Jehovah. Hence, any "worship" these ascribe to Jesus is not legitimate.

    At Matthew 8:2, the King James Bible reads of a leper: "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." Other Bibles read as "was bowing to him"(Young's Bible), "did him homage"(Darby's Bible), "throwing himself at his feet"(Weymouth's New Testament), "fell down before him"(International Standard Version), "prostrated himself before him"(William's New Testament), "knelt before him"(Montgomery New Testament). Hence, the Greek word pro·sky·ne´o is not rendered as "worship" across the board and helps a person to grasp that Jesus was not worshipped by his disciples, but only Jehovah God was to receive worship.

    Jesus told the Samaritan woman: "You worship what you do not know; we worship (Jesus included himself in worshiping the Father) what we know....the hour is coming, and it is now, when true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth."(John 4:22, 23) That is why the angel told the apostle John: "Worship God" (Rev 22:9), not Jesus, just as Jesus told the Samaritan woman and Satan.(Matt 4:10)

    And one final notation. At Acts 7:59, it does not say: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Many draw the conclusion reached by Bible commentator Matthew Henry, who said: “Stephen here prays to Christ, and so must we.” However, that viewpoint is erroneous. Why?

    Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament makes this honest admission: “The word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient [manuscripts] or versions.” How did the word “God” come to be inserted into that verse? Scholar Abiel Abbot Livermore (1811-92) called this “an instance of the sectarian biases of the translators.” Most modern translations, therefore, eliminate this spurious reference to God.
    Last edited by guestman; Jan 7th 2012 at 01:25 AM.

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