Former Buddhist (moved from Introduction)

[Athanasius]

Laughs. Yes the Brits go out of their way to not offend but amongst my non Brit friends they have acquired a reputation for backstabbing. and the Finns find their constant apologising as irritating and a bit like a fawning dog! But on the plus side the Brits are considerate and charming.

It's a good thing they've got the accent.

You know were you stand with the Finns and don't have to think 'what do they really mean'. In fact I have to check my British habit of looking for the hidden agenda. There rarely is one. The Finns are not always considerate. Often they will bump into you without saying sorry. In fact the Finns have a reputaion for not saying sorry.There is a joke about a Swede, a Finn and a Russian who go to a restaurant. The Swede orders a medium rare steak. The waiter returns and says, *I am sorry', there is no meat at all'. The Russian puzzled asked,'What's meat?' - the Finn equally puzzled asked 'What's sorry?'.

Oh, I get in trouble for that all the time. "Well, aren't you going to apologize or say sorry or something?" "Sorry? What for, why would I say that?" Anyway I told my girlfriend the joke, she replied 'Yep, that's you alright' Got a good laugh. There's definitely not much thought for consideration in my family.

[Thomasofindia]

It's a good thing they've got the accent.



Oh, I get in trouble for that all the time. "Well, aren't you going to apologize or say sorry or something?" "Sorry? What for, why would I say that?" Anyway I told my girlfriend the joke, she replied 'Yep, that's you alright' Got a good laugh. There's definitely not much thought for consideration in my family.

O Dear! Then I am lucky. My Finnish girlfriend has apologised to me twice in two and a half years. But at least you know the apology is real. I have also been told that Finns can tell from the expression on each others face if the other is grateful. No need to say thank you if someone opens the door for you. By the way my girl friend is an evangelical Lutheran.But it is starting to rub off on me. Once I was in a supermarket and saw a man and woman talking. The man took a trolley. Thinking they were a couple I moved in and took my trolley and got a mouthful from the woman. I stood there in silence, not a single apology came from my lips. Well, it wasn't deliberate. What will my family think of my manners when I visit in the autumn!I enjoy our chats and your reasoned and honest replies. I feel right at home:-)

[Athanasius]

O Dear! Then I am lucky. My Finnish girlfriend has apologised to me twice in two and a half years. But at least you know the apology is real. I have also been told that Finns can tell from the expression on each others face if the other is grateful. No need to say thank you if someone opens the door for you. By the way my girl friend is an evangelical Lutheran.But it is starting to rub off on me. Once I was in a supermarket and saw a man and woman talking. The man took a trolley. Thinking they were a couple I moved in and took my trolley and got a mouthful from the woman. I stood there in silence, not a single apology came from my lips. Well, it wasn't deliberate. What will my family think of my manners when I visit in the autumn!I enjoy our chats and your reasoned and honest replies. I feel right at home:-)

I think I've apologized once to my girlfriend? It's not a very common occurrence so when I do apologize, she knows I mean it. I think a lot of the times though she can read through me anyway. With Finns, yeah, there's a lot of body language. Some times we're so expressionless though I don't understand how people can tell what's going on. One of the things I'll not stop finding funny is how Finns answer the phone and how Canadians answer the phone. In Canada I'll answer the phone and say my first name (Jeremy) and whoever is on the other end is either silent or starts with 'Uh, uhm, hi uh'. I say 'Hi' in Finland when I answer the phone and people are usually, 'Who am I talking to?'. Been a while since I've been back to Finland though, don't know how much is changed.

I enjoy our chats as well, it's a nice break from the sorts of threads that usually end up here.

[Jabba]

Think about this statement, and I'm not trying to confuse you even more, but just think about it. Religion will not get you saved.
Only faith will.
Faith in who? Jesus Christ.
I do not know if you have a bible at hand, but get one and study it, especially the Gospel of John, for a start.
John 1:1
Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and He was the same as God. Verse 14...The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he recieved as the Father's only Son...
The death of Jesus on the cross and the ressurection is the pivitol point of the whole bible. Should you need giudelines concerning which religion to choose, make sure they are set on this outlook, that Jesus really died for us on the cross, He really rose from the death, and really went to heaven and that, only through Him, we can receive redemption. NO OTHER GOD OR DIETY CAN DO THAT.
I hope this gives you a better starting point in your search.
Be blessed...and keep faith.

[Gypsy]

Uhh, I can't tell if I got you sore or not??? I'm sorry if I did. I honestly wasn’t trying to.

Listen Ben, it's not like it's dangerous to leave me alone with crayons or anything, but your post makes my brain hurt. Despite a little bit of education, I'm basically a simple guy - a "hick", most would call me in this country. You are smart - scary smart, and that’s cool, but do you know this old saying about when you’re holding a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail? My fear for you is that your trying to find answers with your mind that are meant to be sought after with your heart (I felt you just cringe) simply because you’re so good at using your mind - is all I‘m saying. There’s no fault in that. I know a lot of intellectually minded folks who have to pink-pong these things around in their head, and to help you do that, there are clearly better folks than me. So let me just respond to a few things I noticed, and understood ;-) about your post. Then, if I’m bugging you, or not being helpful, you can just tell me to go away, and I’ll leave you to some of the other folks here who are better equipped (ie. Can understand what the heck you’re saying) upstairs, for those kind of discussions. Deal?

OK, first; a couple of times you make reference to the sin of pride in your reply to me

Well, it seems you have already decided that my problem is pride in my brain LOL!.

. . .which I assume means using my big calculator brain and indulging in the sin of pride :-)

just a few hours admiring the size and speed of my brain. O My!!!:-)

but I don’t recall making any reference to it. You might want to examine where that came from. In fact I kind of remember trying to be careful not use that word, because whether or not it was a prideful thing to you is besides the point. I actually think that I suggested that it may even be at a sub-conscious level so unless you think that I’m suggesting that the pride was also sub-conscious, I’m not sure how you’re concluding that I’m criticizing you for being prideful. What I am trying to get at is are you sure that what you were doing was actually exhibiting faith and not just imitating some measured approximation or mimicry (conscious or not and whether it was a source of pride or not) of what you perceived faith to be as exhibited by others? It’s clear that you are very knowledgeable about theology, but can you tell me what you felt in your heart? When I came to Jesus, it was like someone opened up a fire hose inside of my heart, for other’s I know it comes more slowly, drip by drip, but it comes, if you genuinely ask for it. But look:

First I was a Catholic for 25 years

then a Buddhist for twenty years.

I was also a Buddhist minister for eight years.

I liked to give myself up to others and let them tell me how to live my life.

accepting all advice uncritically and I decided to use reason

you keep telling me about the actions you took, the decisions you made and the things you physically did - like you’re giving me your resume, but what I want to know is what did you feel in your heart. Did you ever truly feel the love of Jesus Christ? Let it envelop you? Live your life inside of it’s security? Feel His presence around you or influence in your daily life?

First I was a Catholic for 25 years

I know it stinks, and I also know Catholics who are also beautiful Christians, but the term Catholic and Christian (or really any denomination) are not necessarily synonymous. I’ve known people who have spent there entire life in the Catholic church and have never developed a personal relationship with Jesus. Just sort of floating through, shinning their shoes and going to Mass each Sunday:

Sit - Stand - Sit - Stand - Kneel - Stand - Kneel - Sit - Stand - Look in the bullitin to see if anybody we know died - Where are we going for brunch?

It used to be me. I thought that I was “meeting the requirements” of calling myself a Christian, but I had no connection to Jesus. No relationship with Him. On the other hand the thief on the cross next to Jesus at Calvary, lived what might be considered close to a perfectly impure and sinful life but in his final moments in this world had Faith in Jesus and was saved. Because really that’s all there is to being a Christian - that is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - Really that’s it - He takes care of the rest.

With regard to faith, I liked to give myself up to others and let them tell me how to live my life.

That's not Christian faith my friend. That's submitting to the wills of men. Being a Christian is not about being submissive. It's not about going to church or working in soup kitchens. It's about letting Jesus into your heart. Letting Him (not a church, or a preacher, or a monk or any other man) govern your actions. You don't have to go to church or perform Christian works (although it doesn't hurt) to do it. You can do it in the parking lot at Wal-Mart with a bible if you want.

You have also decided that I was fickle with my faiths. So big headed and fickle the argument is becoming one ad hominen after an another! There is even a question as to whether I was a drug addict. I never took drugs, am teetotal and a non smoker. Also never have been in prison as a convict.

It’s a minor grammatical difference but significant to point out that I said “your faith seems fickle”. You choose to personalize that by saying “I was fickle with my faiths” I wasn’t criticizing you placement of faith, I was questioning whether or not it was actually faith.

I, of course, did not mean to call you a drug addict or convict. I just wanted to know if by "blind alley" you meant some kind of "hitting bottom" in the physical (non-spiritual) sense is all. If you hadn’t put that in parenthesis, I still wouldn't know what ad hominems meant (I‘m still not sure I do), so I can promise you that it's not what I was trying to do. Really the only thing that I’m attributing to you is being really smart

Sure I have faults! Who doesn't.

in my case I noted that prayer as a Catholic did not stop me sinning.

Well yeah - that’s kind of the point. Christ died for your faults and mine and everyone else’s and we’re never gonna stop being sinful by nature. He wants us anyway - go figure why - He just does. I saw this on the internet a long time ago and never forgot it:

It’s NOT

Faith + Works --> Salvation

But rather

Faith --> Salvation + Works

Cool huh?

OK, I'm done but, Listen, if you answer anything that I’ve asked answer this:

What actually do you think it means to be a Christian?

It would make me feel better to know that we're talking about the same thing.

God Bless, my friend, I'll be praying for you.


P.S. What’s a teetotal?

[Thomasofindia]

I think I've apologized once to my girlfriend? It's not a very common occurrence so when I do apologize, she knows I mean it. I think a lot of the times though she can read through me anyway. With Finns, yeah, there's a lot of body language. Some times we're so expressionless though I don't understand how people can tell what's going on. One of the things I'll not stop finding funny is how Finns answer the phone and how Canadians answer the phone. In Canada I'll answer the phone and say my first name (Jeremy) and whoever is on the other end is either silent or starts with 'Uh, uhm, hi uh'. I say 'Hi' in Finland when I answer the phone and people are usually, 'Who am I talking to?'. Been a while since I've been back to Finland though, don't know how much is changed.

I enjoy our chats as well, it's a nice break from the sorts of threads that usually end up here.

I am told that it has changed quite a bit in the last ten years at least in Helsinki. This seems to be to do with the immigration programme that the government is encouraging. The young people are not as quiet as their forefathers and seem to be adopting some American customs. Not sure that is all good. There is also an increase in racist ideas which is probably to do with insecurity at the high rate of immigration. Fortunately for me Brits are not at the forefront of this - but Somalians and Romas are particularly despised. Still there has been no race riots that other countries have endured. On the whole though the Finns are still a quiet and shy people (with some notable exceptions).

It is still also a very Christian country though atheists are tolerated just as much as in the UK. I gather atheists are not so tolerated in the USA. I am baffled when I see American sites encouraging atheists to come out of the closet. For anyone one else reading this - most are evangelical Lutheran or free evangelicals. There are a sizeable minority of Russian Orthodox as a result of their time under the Czars. There are a few Roman Catholics in Helsinki - mainly foreigners.

[Athanasius]

I am told that it has changed quite a bit in the last ten years at least in Helsinki. This seems to be to do with the immigration programme that the government is encouraging. The young people are not as quiet as their forefathers and seem to be adopting some American customs. Not sure that is all good. There is also an increase in racist ideas which is probably to do with insecurity at the high rate of immigration. Fortunately for me Brits are not at the forefront of this - but Somalians and Romas are particularly despised. Still there has been no race riots that other countries have endured. On the whole though the Finns are still a quiet and shy people (with some notable exceptions).

Last I was there, there was a noticeable dislike for 'gypsies'. Though that dislike seems to be spread across most of Eastern Europe.

Probably not the best set of values to be adopting, no. Immigration can be a good or bad thing, depending. One of the most humorous things I find with the Finnish language is their adoption of English words into Finnish, simply tacking an 'i' to most of the words and there you have it, Finglish.

It is still also a very Christian country though atheists are tolerated just as much as in the UK. I gather atheists are not so tolerated in the USA. I am baffled when I see American sites encouraging atheists to come out of the closet. For anyone one else reading this - most are evangelical Lutheran or free evangelicals. There are a sizeable minority of Russian Orthodox as a result of their time under the Czars. There are a few Roman Catholics in Helsinki - mainly foreigners.

I've only been to the United States twice, so I can't really comment on the whole 'atheist oppression' thing. Mind you, I'm just as baffled as are you, I don't understand it. Maybe it's just Canada though, not quite as far down the road as Europe, but close behind, a lot closer than the United States. I think that will change within two generations, people view Christian belief to be on par with belief in unicorns and leprechauns, so all this 'coming out of the closet' business will eventually turn into 'they're religious, don't elect them'. I don't mean to say that in a paranoid sort of way, that's the opinion of my (very) atheist friends.

[Thomasofindia]

Uhh, I can't tell if I got you sore or not??? I'm sorry if I did. I honestly wasn’t trying to.

Listen Ben, it's not like it's dangerous to leave me alone with crayons or anything, but your post makes my brain hurt. Despite a little bit of education, I'm basically a simple guy - a "hick", most would call me in this country. You are smart - scary smart, and that’s cool, but do you know this old saying about when you’re holding a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail? My fear for you is that your trying to find answers with your mind that are meant to be sought after with your heart (I felt you just cringe) simply because you’re so good at using your mind - is all I‘m saying. There’s no fault in that. I know a lot of intellectually minded folks who have to pink-pong these things around in their head, and to help you do that, there are clearly better folks than me. So let me just respond to a few things I noticed, and understood ;-) about your post. Then, if I’m bugging you, or not being helpful, you can just tell me to go away, and I’ll leave you to some of the other folks here who are better equipped (ie. Can understand what the heck you’re saying) upstairs, for those kind of discussions. Deal?

OK, first; a couple of times you make reference to the sin of pride in your reply to me
but I don’t recall making any reference to it. You might want to examine where that came from. In fact I kind of remember trying to be careful not use that word, because whether or not it was a prideful thing to you is besides the point. I actually think that I suggested that it may even be at a sub-conscious level so unless you think that I’m suggesting that the pride was also sub-conscious, I’m not sure how you’re concluding that I’m criticizing you for being prideful. What I am trying to get at is are you sure that what you were doing was actually exhibiting faith and not just imitating some measured approximation or mimicry (conscious or not and whether it was a source of pride or not) of what you perceived faith to be as exhibited by others? It’s clear that you are very knowledgeable about theology, but can you tell me what you felt in your heart? When I came to Jesus, it was like someone opened up a fire hose inside of my heart, for other’s I know it comes more slowly, drip by drip, but it comes, if you genuinely ask for it. But look:

you keep telling me about the actions you took, the decisions you made and the things you physically did - like you’re giving me your resume, but what I want to know is what did you feel in your heart. Did you ever truly feel the love of Jesus Christ? Let it envelop you? Live your life inside of it’s security? Feel His presence around you or influence in your daily life?

I know it stinks, and I also know Catholics who are also beautiful Christians, but the term Catholic and Christian (or really any denomination) are not necessarily synonymous. I’ve known people who have spent there entire life in the Catholic church and have never developed a personal relationship with Jesus. Just sort of floating through, shinning their shoes and going to Mass each Sunday:

Sit - Stand - Sit - Stand - Kneel - Stand - Kneel - Sit - Stand - Look in the bullitin to see if anybody we know died - Where are we going for brunch?

It used to be me. I thought that I was “meeting the requirements” of calling myself a Christian, but I had no connection to Jesus. No relationship with Him. On the other hand the thief on the cross next to Jesus at Calvary, lived what might be considered close to a perfectly impure and sinful life but in his final moments in this world had Faith in Jesus and was saved. Because really that’s all there is to being a Christian - that is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - Really that’s it - He takes care of the rest.
That's not Christian faith my friend. That's submitting to the wills of men. Being a Christian is not about being submissive. It's not about going to church or working in soup kitchens. It's about letting Jesus into your heart. Letting Him (not a church, or a preacher, or a monk or any other man) govern your actions. You don't have to go to church or perform Christian works (although it doesn't hurt) to do it. You can do it in the parking lot at Wal-Mart with a bible if you want.

It’s a minor grammatical difference but significant to point out that I said “your faith seems fickle”. You choose to personalize that by saying “I was fickle with my faiths” I wasn’t criticizing you placement of faith, I was questioning whether or not it was actually faith.

I, of course, did not mean to call you a drug addict or convict. I just wanted to know if by "blind alley" you meant some kind of "hitting bottom" in the physical (non-spiritual) sense is all. If you hadn’t put that in parenthesis, I still wouldn't know what ad hominems meant (I‘m still not sure I do), so I can promise you that it's not what I was trying to do. Really the only thing that I’m attributing to you is being really smart
Well yeah - that’s kind of the point. Christ died for your faults and mine and everyone else’s and we’re never gonna stop being sinful by nature. He wants us anyway - go figure why - He just does. I saw this on the internet a long time ago and never forgot it:

It’s NOT

Faith + Works --> Salvation

But rather

Faith --> Salvation + Works

Cool huh?

OK, I'm done but, Listen, if you answer anything that I’ve asked answer this:

What actually do you think it means to be a Christian?

It would make me feel better to know that we're talking about the same thing.

God Bless, my friend, I'll be praying for you.


P.S. What’s a teetotal?

Phew! Long reply from you so it deserves a long reply from me.

Well, I wasn't sure what to make of your reply. I saw a list of possible faults being reeled out and read between the lines that you might be trying to make me look bad. However, I also thought you were trying to be fair. But if you say you had no intention of accusing me of pride then I accept that and I on my part apologise for jumping to that conclusion.

On paper people tell me that I come over as an intellectual even though I have never been to an academic university and I was 55 before I went to a university of applied sciences. Some say I am clear in my thinking but those who know me say that not only do I feel passionately about all sorts of things but that I act quite irrationally at times. And they are right!

Your main point is how to tell what is real faith. I certainly remember in my teens and twenties talking to Jesus and there was certainly feeling there on my part. I was distressed that some sins could not be overcome despite prayer and pleading. Yet I still believed in a God of love. This was in my catholic days. I did have a little dalliance with a baptist church at the time. I had a baptist girlfriend.

One odd experience was that I prayed that someone would come along and show me the way. The next week I joined the local church's St Vincent de Paul's society and when a late comer came in I had this feeling that this was the man that God had sent. To my delight we visited some old people together and he started to talk to me cautiously at first but then more openly. At one point to my shock he said that there had been greater men than Jesus. If anyone else had said it - I would have rejected it straight away. But he had come as an answer to a prayer. He also said that it would be good for me to learn meditation and he suggested the Buddhists would be a good place to learn.

Now you will notice from all of the above that I was acting very much on feeling, very heart felt feelings. I also trusted that God had answered my prayer through this man. I suspect that even you as a 'feelings' type would see the 'danger' of just making a decision to trust based on feeling alone.

Now I did decide to approach the Buddhists. I went on retreats and learnt meditation but it was three years befrore I decided I was a Buddhist. It is not that I didn't have a critical mind at this time but I believed some where more spiritually advanced than me and believed that some could understand things that I couldn't yet. This is why I said I gave myself up to others. Buddhism also encouraged a relationship with the Buddhas. And these felt very real, loving and challenging.

Now I don't want to bore you with too much personal detail. I just wanted to give you a flavour of the emotional side and leave it to you whether you see this as real faith or not. (Obviously it is not faith in the protestant Jesus but that doesn't mean it is not genuine faith in something else).

One of my grandfathers was an alcoholic and compulsive gambler. So quite early on I decided not to drink (i.e teetotal).

Anyway, I appreciated your reply. I am not so stupid as to think that I can only learn from intellectual types.

[Gypsy]

Hey Ben,
Oh good. I'm glad you're not sore. You know I meant to tell you that my ex-wife is Finnish (from Turku) and I've been there many times. I never learned to speak very well, but I can get yelled at real good in Finnish.

Two passages from scripture I feel called to ask you to speak to:

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind

I believe that this is what you are doing and that's cool. Ben, don't let anyone here make you feel like they havent ever had any questions, or doubt or confusion of their own. Every Christian has. Every Christian has back slidden and encountered tough times maintaining thier faith. I think that what you're doing is far more admirable (and pleasing to God) than simply choosing a faith and following blindly without any true conviction of your own heart. It's frustrating to me, because I want that for you. I want you to know the love and safety and freedom that only He can give, but I know it's a walk that is an individual one. Different for each of us. I think that perhaps your walk has been so long is that when you do come to find the truth, you will be well prepared to leed others to the light.

The second verse is

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not everyone who professes to speak in His name does so to His glory (even David Koresh's teachings were biblically based.) Truth comes from the word of God not the words of men.

I pray that you will find that truth.

[Thomasofindia]

Hey Ben,
Oh good. I'm glad you're not sore. You know I meant to tell you that my ex-wife is Finnish (from Turku) and I've been there many times. I never learned to speak very well, but I can get yelled at real good in Finnish.

Two passages from scripture I feel called to ask you to speak to:

I believe that this is what you are doing and that's cool. Ben, don't let anyone here make you feel like they havent ever had any questions, or doubt or confusion of their own. Every Christian has. Every Christian has back slidden and encountered tough times maintaining thier faith. I think that what you're doing is far more admirable (and pleasing to God) than simply choosing a faith and following blindly without any true conviction of your own heart. It's frustrating to me, because I want that for you. I want you to know the love and safety and freedom that only He can give, but I know it's a walk that is an individual one. Different for each of us. I think that perhaps your walk has been so long is that when you do come to find the truth, you will be well prepared to leed others to the light.

The second verse is

Not everyone who professes to speak in His name does so to His glory (even David Koresh's teachings were biblically based.) Truth comes from the word of God not the words of men.

I pray that you will find that truth.

Hi thanks for the reply. You are the second person I have met who has a Finnish connection. Maybe it will become a requiremnet to join the board :-)