How are Christians Not Sinners?

[sedux]

Christians don't dive into sin like they used to before they were born in Christ. Our sensitivity to sin and our convictions of them are a good indicator that Christ is alive in us and at work on us in someway, shape or form.

From this perspective, I can understand what is meant by saying that: Christians don't sin all the time, but do so on occasion because we would not knowingly continue sinning and rebelling against our Lord and Savior.

If that is what you mean by that statement that I am in total agreement.

But what about this perspective:
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God....

Romans 3:22-24
Because Jesus died for us, we can be declared righteous. God justifies those who have faith in Christ—and therefore no one can brag about how well they keep the law.

If no one can brag about righteousness, how can we say that we are not sinners? If we refrain from sinning all the time, but yet, still sin on occasion would not that act of occasional sin still be viewed as sin regardless, in the eye's of the Lord? Sin that still needs to be repented of?

If we are not sinners then we are not in need of a Savior. If you occasionally sin are you only occasionally in need of a Savior?

Even if we have not committed any sins to the best of our knowledge, is it possible that there are unknown sins we may harbor that have not been brought to light?

If unknown sin is not of any significance why does it have the potential to hinder God's presence in our walk?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good?" No one is good except God alone.

If Jesus did not even consider Himself good, what by our own definition is a good Christian?

Again, I only ask these things because I'm trying to understand your point of view on why Christians are not sinners. If you have knowledge of something that I may not understand because of my lack of spiritual maturity, please forgive me for I am not trying to argue or challenge anything, just trying to learn more from others...

[tango]

We will never be sinless this side of heaven, but we can make a lot of effort to sin less. I'm certainly still a sinner, I'm a human and I have weaknesses just like any other. But typically when I've done something wrong I feel a prickle of conscience that was usually not there before I became a Christian. I'm also more conscious that something is sinful before I do it, which gives me more of an opportunity to avoid doing it at all.

That's not to say I never sin (I wish I could say that but it wouldn't be true), just to give you some ideas.

1Jn 1:7-9 NKJV But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[The Mighty Sword]

How are Christians Not Sinners?

Oh?, contrare mu friar, sometimes even more so due to the fact we know and practice The Word.

[sedux]

We will never be sinless this side of heaven, but we can make a lot of effort to sin less. I'm certainly still a sinner, I'm a human and I have weaknesses just like any other. But typically when I've done something wrong I feel a prickle of conscience that was usually not there before I became a Christian. I'm also more conscious that something is sinful before I do it, which gives me more of an opportunity to avoid doing it at all.

That's not to say I never sin (I wish I could say that but it wouldn't be true), just to give you some ideas.

1Jn 1:7-9 NKJV But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yes! and Thank You for the verse! It's perfect for this thread!

[JohnnieGuy]

We still sin, but we are declared righteous through Jesus Christ. It is as if we had NO SIN.

God is wonderful.

[sedux]

We still sin, but we are declared righteous through Jesus Christ. It is as if we had NO SIN.

God is wonderful.

Psalm 103:12
..as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Thank God for his endless mercy and forgiveness!

When I think about forgiveness and accountability, I wonder where we draw the line? Where does forgiveness end and accountability begin? If our sins are washed as white as snow and the Lord will remember them no more, what will we be held accountable for on judgement day? If our slate is cleaned by the righteousness of Christ why the need for judgement? What will be judged of us that has not already been given to us by grace?

[JohnnieGuy]

Probably how we abided in Him and what fruit we bore, the works of righteousness.

I know personally I get distracted a lot from the Lord and it's hard sometimes to just keep looking to Him. When I do I experience that true joy and freedom and want nothing but to serve Him. When my eyes fall off of Him I want to serve myself.

I think when we are abiding in Him that is when we produce the fruits of righteousness and that is what believers will be judged on.

I remember a passage Paul wrote about how Christ is the foundation and we will be judged upon what we built upon that foundation. For instance if it's hay or stubble or money or whatever than those works will be burned up, but if we abide in Him and produce fruits of righteousness we will have rewards in heaven.

[sedux]

Probably how we abided in Him and what fruit we bore, the works of righteousness.

I know personally I get distracted a lot from the Lord and it's hard sometimes to just keep looking to Him. When I do I experience that true joy and freedom and want nothing but to serve Him. When my eyes fall off of Him I want to serve myself.

I think when we are abiding in Him that is when we produce the fruits of righteousness and that is what believers will be judged on.

I remember a passage Paul wrote about how Christ is the foundation and we will be judged upon what we built upon that foundation. For instance if it's hay or stubble or money or whatever than those works will be burned up, but if we abide in Him and produce fruits of righteousness we will have rewards in heaven.

That makes alot of sense to me, I thank you for sharing it with me!

[crossnote]

This was a definite teaching of the Reformation and they had their handy Latin slogan for it...Simul Iustus et Peccator ...Simultaneously justified and sinner.

[JohnnieGuy]

Right. But as we have been justified we should consider ourselves dead to sin: "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:11

We still sin, but as we see what sin is and grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior we should be actively opposing it and running from it and its deceptive pleasures.

[Brother Mark]

What we are speaking of here is identity. Who are believers?

2 Cor 5:16-17

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
NASU

Do we recognize or identify ourselves according to the flesh? Or according to Christ?

Here's another verse.

2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASU

God took on my sin. I took on his righteousness. So now, I am as righteous as God himself. That's why Jesus said "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees you won't get in." That statement would be like telling Catholics that unless they were more righteous than the pope, they wouldn't get in. So how righteous do we need to be? As righteous as Jesus.

If I am in Christ, and if I am as righteous as Jesus, then how am I identified now as a sinner? I am a new creature. Oh, I still stumble and sin. But that is not who I am anymore.

Col 1:21-22

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach
NASU

Here I am to be presented holy and blameless. I love that.

Look at what these verses say I am in Him.

Col 2:10-15
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
NASU

In Him, I am many things but sinner isn't one of them. Since I am a new creature, and I am in Him, why would I then call myself by my old name, my old nature, and say or confess that I am a sinner? Rather, let us call ourselves by our new name, as holy, righteous, forgiven, rulers, kings, etc. For we are forgiven. Our heart is no longer evil but transformed and His law is now written into our heart.

Grace and peace,

Mark

[JohnnieGuy]

Awesome!

[sedux]

What we are speaking of here is identity. Who are believers?

2 Cor 5:16-17

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
NASU

Do we recognize or identify ourselves according to the flesh? Or according to Christ?

Here's another verse.

2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASU

God took on my sin. I took on his righteousness. So now, I am as righteous as God himself. That's why Jesus said "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees you won't get in." That statement would be like telling Catholics that unless they were more righteous than the pope, they wouldn't get in. So how righteous do we need to be? As righteous as Jesus.

If I am in Christ, and if I am as righteous as Jesus, then how am I identified now as a sinner? I am a new creature. Oh, I still stumble and sin. But that is not who I am anymore.

Col 1:21-22

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach
NASU

Here I am to be presented holy and blameless. I love that.

Look at what these verses say I am in Him.

Col 2:10-15
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
NASU

In Him, I am many things but sinner isn't one of them. Since I am a new creature, and I am in Him, why would I then call myself by my old name, my old nature, and say or confess that I am a sinner? Rather, let us call ourselves by our new name, as holy, righteous, forgiven, rulers, kings, etc. For we are forgiven. Our heart is no longer evil but transformed and His law is now written into our heart.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Ahhh, our identity in relation to Christ, we are saints! I realize that I was taking that statement: "Christians are not sinners.", way too literally. Your post was very nurturing and most helpful. Thank you Brother Mark for taking the time to explain that to me!

Doh! I have to spread the "wealth" before I rep you again...

[9Marksfan]

Hi Sedux

Great thread and great OP, apart from this bit:-

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good?" No one is good except God alone.

If Jesus did not even consider Himself good, what by our own definition is a good Christian?

I was in fact preaching on this very passage last Sunday morning. When I was a young Christian, I (like you) thought that was what Jesus meant in the verse. Yet over the years I have come to realise that that's not what He meant at all - it's clear from the whole of the gospels that He was fully aware of who He was and why He had been sent - He is described as "without sin" and "separate from sinners" in Hebrews and when He asked the Sanhedrin "Which of you convicts me of sin?", He knew He was sinless. Instead, He was seeking to show that young man that no one can BECOME good by trying to keep the law, as the young man had been trying to do all his days. Jesus was also trying to see if the man was prepared to accept that Jesus was God. Tragically, he didn't - and in fact he misinterpreted Jesus' message in the same way I did - he next calls Jesus simply "Teacher" - so he was saying that Jesus wasn't good, but that he hoped to be! Tragically blind - yet Jesus loved him and showed him what he needed to do - give up the idol of wealth and come, follow Him.

[sedux]

Hi Sedux

Great thread and great OP, apart from this bit:-

I was in fact preaching on this very passage last Sunday morning. When I was a young Christian, I (like you) thought that was what Jesus meant in the verse. Yet over the years I have come to realise that that's not what He meant at all - it's clear from the whole of the gospels that He was fully aware of who He was and why He had been sent - He is described as "without sin" and "separate from sinners" in Hebrews and when He asked the Sanhedrin "Which of you convicts me of sin?", He knew He was sinless. Instead, He was seeking to show that young man that no one can BECOME good by trying to keep the law, as the young man had been trying to do all his days. Jesus was also trying to see if the man was prepared to accept that Jesus was God. Tragically, he didn't - and in fact he misinterpreted Jesus' message in the same way I did - he next calls Jesus simply "Teacher" - so he was saying that Jesus wasn't good, but that he hoped to be! Tragically blind - yet Jesus loved him and showed him what he needed to do - give up the idol of wealth and come, follow Him.

Another something that I took literally and I didn't even realize it! Now that I think of it, it really wouldn't make sense to believe that - not even Jesus was a "good" man, for how can He not be, when He was and is completely sinless... Thank you for pointing that out to me, it is such a blessing to learn something new and to be able to "see" something that wasn't so obvious before!