Which came first, the Earth or the Sun?

[Athanasius]

As I said to Philemon9, all the data in scripture indicates a six day creation of the day/night, evening/morning kind.
No data in scripture indicates the contrary.

I've not disagreed with you that your interpretation isn't a valid interpretation. What I have said, however, is that it's one interpretation of a few valid interpretations (some more valid than others). It's the interpretation supported by this board, it's one that can't be challenged. To say that 'no data in scripture indicates the contrary' is plain silly. If this was the case, everyone would believe the same.

More than that I cannot show you, because you know full well that nobody can prove empirically that you must believe the Genesis account as it is written. That's why non-literal interpretations are the easiest cop-out there is, because it's unverifiable, not so?

I would think it a theological, rather than an empirical proof.

There's nothing more that I can do for you, but what's true is that you don't believe in long ages because of anything you've read in the Bible and neither do you hold the idea that Genesis isn't literally true because of what you read in the Bible, but because of what people have taught you and you have believed it.

There's nothing I've wanted you to do for me; you don't even understand my position and here you are arguing against something you've constructed, because you paint everyone the same who disagrees with you in some little way (cosmic evolutionary believing naturalists; 'Jesus is a liar' Christians).

Can you say with Paul, "Let God be true and every man a liar?"
Can you?

I told you, I'm disagreeing with some aspects of your position, not God.

[chisel]

To say that 'no data in scripture indicates the contrary' is plain silly. If this was the case, everyone would believe the same.

Do you realise what you just implied?

Since people's beliefs are contradicting it must be because the bible is contradicts itself...

Come now, you're doing it again. You're determining scriptural truth by what people do.

What about oneness believers, they use the same bible as we do. So what's your take, are their interpretations valid purely because they reinterpret scripture that way?

Do you realise how close you're coming to relativism?

I told you, I'm disagreeing with some aspects of your position, not God.

You're disagreeing because external influence, that is my point.

Seriously though. Who convinced you that the Big Bang is true and that creation took billions of years? I'd like to know

Was it because of something you read in the Bible, or because most of the major philosophers of today believe it, such as Alvin Plantinga, Bill Craig, Moreland etc.

I would think it a theological, rather than an empirical proof.

And what are theological proofs built on, if not on what the Bible says?

[Athanasius]

Do you realise what you just implied?

Since people's beliefs are contradicting it must be because the bible is contradicts itself...

Come now, you're doing it again. You're determining scriptural truth by what people do.

What about oneness believers, they use the same bible as we do. So what's your take, are their interpretations valid purely because they reinterpret scripture that way?

Do you realise how close you're coming to relativism?

That's plainly false, I'm implying nothing of the sort. If there is any implication it's simply that we don't understand the first chapter of Genesis as well as we believe we do; hence the different views people have taken with respect to Genesis over the centuries.

If you mean to say I'm confusing a believers perspective of the text with the objective nature of the text, then you're wrong. I'm very much aware that perspective isn't truth. With respect to Oneness believers, where they deny the Trinity we are very clear on what Scripture teaches.

You can present what I've said in such a way that it appears I'm coming 'close' to relativism (I prefer the term postmodern), but the reality is that I'm not.

You're disagreeing because external influence, that is my point.

Seriously though. Who convinced you that the Big Bang is true and that creation took billions of years? I'd like to know

Was it because of something you read in the Bible, or because most of the major philosophers of today believe it, such as Alvin Plantinga, Bill Craig, Moreland etc.

Well no, that's not your point. Regardless, no one convinced me.

[chisel]

That's plainly false, I'm implying nothing of the sort. If there is any implication it's simply that we don't understand the first chapter of Genesis as well as we believe we do; hence the different views people have taken with respect to Genesis over the centuries.

Are you saying Genesis isn't clear? Suppose God really did make everything in six literal day/night type days. What should Moses have added to the creation account to make you believe it?

If you mean to say I'm confusing a believers perspective of the text with the objective nature of the text, then you're wrong. I'm very much aware that perspective isn't truth. With respect to Oneness believers, where they deny the Trinity we are very clear on what Scripture teaches.

Ok, and what does scripture teach about how God made everything and in particular, how long it took?

Well no, that's not your point. Regardless, no one convinced me.

What do you mean? Were you born believing in the Big bang and that the earth is billions of years old?

I asked you, what are theological proofs built on, if not on what the Bible says?

[Athanasius]

Are you saying Genesis isn't clear? Suppose God really did make everything in six literal day/night type days. What should Moses have added to the creation account to make you believe it?

Apparently nothing.

Ok, and what does scripture teach about how God made everything and in particular, how long it took?

Scripture teaches spoken creation over a period of 6 days. I omit the word literal.

What do you mean? Were you born believing in the Big bang and that the earth is billions of years old?

I asked you, what are theological proofs built on, if not on what the Bible says?

I mean I've never once claimed to believe the earth or creation is billions of years old.

[chisel]

Apparently nothing.

so then?

All the data in scripture indicates a six day creation of the day/night, evening/morning kind.
No data in scripture indicates the contrary.

I mean I've never once claimed to believe the earth or creation is billions of years old.

What about the big bang? I asked you not only about billions of years but about the Big bang too. You still believe in the big bang, right? According to the big bang theory the earth is billions of years old, not so?
Are you playing word games now and denying that you believe in the big bang?

I asked you how you got convinced of it, from the bible or from people.

Third request, what are theological proofs built on, if not on what the Bible says?

[CoffeeCat]

Folks, see post 20 of this thread.

You have returned to arguing back and forth between one another rather than answering the OP's question, so here is the deal.

This thread is being re-opened. Please address the OP, and stay on topic. Discuss what the Bible has to say about the creation of the Earth and the Sun, and please start referring to some scripture here -- it WILL help the conversation along.

I am leaving the posts above exactly as they are, without deleting them, in the understanding that a return to arguing back and forth about unrelated topics (specifically, the arguments back and forth directly above this post) to this thread will inevitably result in an infraction being given -- and we want to avoid that, but if necessary, it'll happen. We need everyone on the same page here, please.

I hope you have a GREAT continued conversation here. I KNOW you can focus on the topic, everyone, and I am looking forward to what you have to say.

Thanks!

[chisel]

All the data in scripture indicates a six day creation of the day/night, evening/morning kind.
No data in scripture indicates the contrary.

[chisel]

R.C. Sproul
Ligonier Ministries

We have seen countless examples of universities, colleges, and seminaries chartered with a strong commitment to orthodox Christianity, only to erode first into liberalism and ultimately to secularism. Why did this happen? There are multiple, complex reasons for the apostasy of such institutions, but one key factor is the desire of professors to be intellectually recognized in the academic world. A slavish genuflection to the latest trends in academia seduces our leaders into conformity. One apologist once described this pattern as the “treason of the intellectuals”. If the secular establishment ridicules such tenets as the inspiration of the Bible, then insecure Christian professors, desperate to be accepted by their peers, quickly flee from orthodoxy, dragging the colleges, seminaries, and ultimately the churches with them. It is a weighty price to pay for academic recognition.

[matthew7and1]

what if God created the sun first in sequence but when he seperated light and dark he just aligned the earth in the universe in a way that allows us to have day and night?

[cnw]

When one looks into the Bible, it states that God has nostrils and lives on a mountain, that Jesus is a gate, that Herod was a fox, that one should not throw pearls to pigs. And yet some really think that they can learn science from it. Or so it seems.


Quite. At times the Bible contradicts itself, if understood as a science textbook, yet these people carry on undaunted.

you simply haven't read the OT have you? God is pathetically detailed.

what if God created the sun first in sequence but when he seperated light and dark he just aligned the earth in the universe in a way that allows us to have day and night?

because the Bible says in vs 14-17 after God made the light he made the sun, moon and stars. After. He created light from darkness in the first part of chapter-it does not say he created the sun to form the light in the dark. He just created light. AND IT WAS.
so we don't get God. I think somewhere in that big book we don't always understand it also says....
His ways are not our ways.
and Xel, when did you start believing in the big bang? lol

[timmyb]

you simply haven't read the OT have you? God is pathetically detailed.


because the Bible says in vs 14-17 after God made the light he made the sun, moon and stars. After. He created light from darkness in the first part of chapter-it does not say he created the sun to form the light in the dark. He just created light. AND IT WAS.
so we don't get God. I think somewhere in that big book we don't always understand it also says....
His ways are not our ways.
and Xel, when did you start believing in the big bang? lol

I believe in the big bang... as in God said it and BANG... it happened.

[Christ Warrior]

It's been weeks since I last checked on this thread and it has exploded! I guess this question is un-answerable?

[timmyb]

It's been weeks since I last checked on this thread and it has exploded! I guess this question is un-answerable?

It's gotten very confusing for me... if i do say so myself

[daughter]

Well, the Bible says that "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It doesn't say in what order the heavens and the earth were created... so does it matter?

We do know that the first thing in creation was light... which makes sense in terms of physics. If there was a big bang, the first thing would have been an awful lot of light. But as for the more finickety detail... I don't know, and I don't need to know. I just know that He said it, and it came to be.

I don't mind people trying to figure it out, God gave us minds to use. I'm just saying that I don't know, and don't mind the fact that I don't have a clue.