What it's all about

[tango]

A while back I spent some time with a Muslim who, as might be expected, seemed very secure in their faith. Sometimes it can be frustrating because this person seems blinded to the truth, even when they themselves post things that allude to the truth of Christianity.

Thinking about them reminded me of a sermon at church some months ago, part of a series about building bridges between the Church and the lost.

The speaker described the journey to and of faith as being like a line, which he numbered from -5 to +5. The numbers are entirely arbitrary, but the idea is that coming to Christ is represented by crossing 0 (i.e. going from negative to positive).

He used the idea that someone at -5 might be far from God, looking the other way, and probably hostile to the church and religion in general. Someone at +5 might be a mature Christian of many years standing.

Of course the idea of evangelism is to encourage people to cross 0 on the scale, to take the step from not knowing Jesus to knowing him as their saviour. The important thing to remember (which I find very easy to forget!) is that every step someone takes towards that goal is worthwhile.

Not everybody who goes out evangelising is going to see someone cross that line, we won't always be "the one" who leads someone to Christ. But if we talk to someone who is at -5 and when we leave they have moved to -4 we have done something worthwhile. Someone else can then get them to -3, and so on. It can sometimes be discouraging to talk with someone who just doesn't seem to get it, but if we even get them to turn around and look towards God we have accomplished something.

When they finally cross that magic 0 marker it might be because of what someone specific said to them, it might simply be God working in their lives. When I first appeared here in the Christians Answer forum I was probably about -3 or -4 on this scale, and the answers to the questions I got helped push me very near to 0, but I'd say it was a kick from God that got me to cross the line.


Joh 4:37-38 NKJV For in this the saying is true: 'One sows and another reaps.' (38) I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors."

[Desperaux]

Great post, tango!

We are seed sowers and not all of us are blessed in "reaping" someone to Jesus Christ. I remember reading about the concept of the "divine exchange", as represented by the crosspoint of the cross. It is there that we exchange our sin for eternal life. Sin for righteousness, disease for healing, evil for goodness, etc. When you speak of the zero point, I am reminded of that!

[livingwaters]

Great post, Tango! Full of wisdom! It is very easy to forget that even one (-) closer is an accomplishment for God's Kingdom! So, let us keep on keeping on for the Lord!

God bless

[Firstfruits]

Just as we may find it hard to explain when another christian has a different understanding of what is written, the same can be said concerning those that believe the Koran. Although the Kopran may say that Jesus is the be followed and trusted it may not be accepted that you understand what is written, and that only certain people can understand what is written.

The Koran clearly identifies Jesus as the saviour and Mohamed as just a mesenger.

Just as we should not teach above that which is written the same should apply to the Koran. If not then those that believe the Koran have no sure foundation if dependant on other mens interpretaions of it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[inn]

That is beautifuly written Firstfruits, but I don't really get your point. Are you saying we need Holy Spirit to guide us in our understanding?

[Firstfruits]

That is beautifuly written Firstfruits, but I don't really get your point. Are you saying we need Holy Spirit to guide us in our understanding?

I would hope that we would allow the Holy Spirit to guide us, however the Koran does not depend on the Holy Spirit as a guide but upon the interpretations of men. Those that are not believers of the Koran may not be accepted as those that understand what is written, even if what is written is clear.

Firstfruits

[Gilligan]

Has anyone heard of someone going from -5 to +1 the same day? In other words, from very nasty to a soul winner to getting saved.

[tango]

Has anyone heard of someone going from -5 to +1 the same day? In other words, from very nasty to a soul winner to getting saved.

Saul of Tarsus would be an obvious example I suppose.

The key thing is the numbers and the rate of progression isn't important, what's important is that at some point people go from negative to positive.

[Gadgeteer]

Saul of Tarsus would be an obvious example I suppose.

The key thing is the numbers and the rate of progression isn't important, what's important is that at some point people go from negative to positive.

Where would Paul have been on that line? He was not an atheist, nor was he agnostic. He was a "learned man", taught in the Scriptures. Paul considered Jesus a "false leader", and thought by pursuing Jesus' followers he was doing God a favor.

It was only when he "saw the light", literally, when Jesus spoke to him, that he realized Jesus was no mere man.

Jesus was God.

What happened to Paul outside of Damascus was not that he "turned to God", but he realized he had been persecuting God!

I can't imagine what shame and remorse he must have felt. Acts9:19 says he was with the Disciples for several days; surely he came to know the forgiveness of God, and his potential for now doing good.

Jesus said, "If God was your Father (if you believed and loved God), then you would love Me." (Jn8:42) So one could validly argue that if Paul had REALLY loved and followed God, he would have recognized Jesus. But it's a fact that Paul thought he was following God in persecuting the "heretics". The key to the Damascus-Road event was realizing that he was working against God.

Jesus is the Messiah, and Jesus is God. When Ananias opened Paul's eyes, Paul had no doubt of either.


So where was he on that scale? What about those in Revelation3:14-22 who have become "lukewarm", thinking they are SAVED but are not? These are harder to reach than the GODLESS! Does the scale have a different dimension, instead of just "up and down" could it also go left and right?

[pieman]

I think something that is important to God is sincerity. By that I mean, I don't think it matters to much to God where someone is on that line. It's hard for any of us to judge where others are in their walk with God. There may be Muslims, Hindu's, etc, who are closer to God than a self-righteous Christian.

Jesus gave that wonderful story of the good Samaritan. One could easily translate that story into a modern context and replace Samaritan with Hindu. From this I see that Jesus is looking for evidence of love in our lives, and that is what ultimately matters in the end, not religious affiliation. John says anyone who loves is born of God.

[soft]

I really like the story of the good Samaritan because it's about love but then I feel convicted cause I don't think I'd want to trust people enough to say "take care of this person and whatever needs to be spent on him I'll pay later".

I also like the idea of the scale illustration to get a better understanding of how even some tiny bit of progress is still good news.

[XYZ]

Where would Paul have been on that line? He was not an atheist, nor was he agnostic. He was a "learned man", taught in the Scriptures. Paul considered Jesus a "false leader", and thought by pursuing Jesus' followers he was doing God a favor.

Have you considered Paul's own statement in Rom 16? He tells us he was losing kinfolk to a way that was new to the Jews. It alarmed him to the point of aggression. "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."[Rom 16:7]

Years later, Paul gives us a clue as to why he was so alarmed: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" [Acts 24:14]

I have always felt just a little sorry for Saul of Tarsus, because he had such zeal and love for God only to find himself on the wrong side. Sometimes I am thought of in much the same way because I learn something new and try toshare it with folks who are kinda set in their belief system.
I do not see such eagerness among my fellow-heirs in Christ in this day's church. Perhaps I am sheltered too much.

[Gadgeteer]

Have you considered Paul's own statement in Rom 16? He tells us he was losing kinfolk to a way that was new to the Jews. It alarmed him to the point of aggression. "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."[Rom 16:7]

Years later, Paul gives us a clue as to why he was so alarmed: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" [Acts 24:14]

I have always felt just a little sorry for Saul of Tarsus, because he had such zeal and love for God only to find himself on the wrong side. Sometimes I am thought of in much the same way because I learn something new and try to share it with folks who are kinda set in their belief system.
I do not see such eagerness among my fellow-heirs in Christ in this day's church. Perhaps I am sheltered too much.

Very cool "handle". Welcome to the boards! :-)

I think you are very wise. Paul must have come to full terms with God's forgiveness; else he could never have lived with his past. But Scripture speaks of others who have a zeal --- like Matt7:21-23, those who "prophesy" and "cast out demons" and "do mighty works"; but Jesus does not know them. Can we know that we are "on the right side"? Yes. 1Jn5:13 is one of several verses that assure us.

May our zeal be right, and may our pursuit be always to His truth, and not be deceived. As James says in 4:6-10, the closer we draw to Him, the farther we are from evil. We serve a real God, are indwelt by a real person of Jesus, and by a real person of the Holy Spirit. Let our fellowship (1Jn1:3!) be so real to us, that it spills out to a lost and dying world, as a beacon of light across a stormy and wind-ravaged sea guiding all to safety. May they see Him in us, enough to want what we have. May the whole success of our lives be in terms of how He lives in us, and is able to reach them through us.

There is a treasure we can take with us, to the next world; I will take ALL OF YOU, as brothers and sisters --- and I will be RICH with you, in His presence, forever.

[Gadgeteer]

I think something that is important to God is sincerity. By that I mean, I don't think it matters to much to God where someone is on that line. It's hard for any of us to judge where others are in their walk with God. There may be Muslims, Hindu's, etc, who are closer to God than a self-righteous Christian.

Jesus gave that wonderful story of the good Samaritan. One could easily translate that story into a modern context and replace Samaritan with Hindu. From this I see that Jesus is looking for evidence of love in our lives, and that is what ultimately matters in the end, not religious affiliation. John says anyone who loves is born of God.

This is true. Though Acts4:12 states there is no other name under Heaven by which we must be saved, one who has never HEARD the name "Jesus", can still know Him as much as they understand. Yes there will be Muslems, and Hindus in Heaven. And Indians, Aztecs, Incas, Anastasie, Eskimos, Aborigines, African Bushmen and others who never had the chance to HEAR of Jesus. I believe this is what Paul meant in Romans2:14-16; they can know Him from creation --- whoever seeks the Creator, with all his/her heart, will find Jesus. And Jesus will find him or her.

I've talked with many people --- Mormons, JW's, Moonies, even Pagans --- and a lot of them are nicer than many "so-called Christians". Pathetic that this is true, but it speaks more about us. We must minister to each other, and LOVE each other, sharpening as iron-sharpens-iron --- until we all are drawn into that intimate union with Christ that makes us truly righteous, and truly loving towards each other and the world. Only then will we embody the spirit of the Good Samaritan, but honoring Jesus' name.

The Samaritan was not an accidental choice; the Jews disparaged them --- so Jesus' point was all the more profound that one of "them" could be more godly than the Jews.

Let us not find non-Christians more godly than us.

[XYZ]

Very cool "handle". Welcome to the boards! :-)

I think you are very wise. Paul must have come to full terms with God's forgiveness; else he could never have lived with his past.

That is why Paul later said "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel."[I Cor 9:16] He had killed for God, now he must make alive (preach the gospel) for God or it makes a lie out of his former activity.

But Scripture speaks of others who have a zeal --- like Matt7:21-23, those who "prophesy" and "cast out demons" and "do mighty works"; but Jesus does not know them.

Ever wonder whence their power? They were not simply Christians, but they were Christians who sought power for the sake of power itself. These were the saints of whom Paul and the others warned, that would wreak havoc of the church, each striving for mastery over others. Even Paul accused them of being wolves in sheeps clothing. And who were the sheep? The Christians who never learned to fight the fight of the world, but meekly yielded to those same wolves rather than tear and rend the body of Christ. Oh, what a world that pristine church must have been. Sometimes I wish fervently I had been a part of it, then I reconsider and accept the part God has for me. But I have learned to appreciate those earliest example of humility, who yielded their own lives to the wolves of whom Paul warned, knowing what they were. And some of those same saints who were so humble, were later betrayed into the hands of destroyers who destroyed their bodies, freeing their souls for more wonderful things.

Can we know that we are "on the right side"? Yes. 1Jn5:13 is one of several verses that assure us.

Agreed! How wonderful to hear the assurances of God himself spoken on the pen and tongue of brethren of like precious faith. That alone is an assurance of great price.

May our zeal be right, and may our pursuit be always to His truth, and not be deceived. As James says in 4:6-10, the closer we draw to Him, the farther we are from evil. We serve a real God, are indwelt by a real person of Jesus, and by a real person of the Holy Spirit. Let our fellowship (1Jn1:3!) be so real to us, that it spills out to a lost and dying world, as a beacon of light across a stormy and wind-ravaged sea guiding all to safety. May they see Him in us, enough to want what we have. May the whole success of our lives be in terms of how He lives in us, and is able to reach them through us.

Wonderful! Absolutely graced by God! I love it.

There is a treasure we can take with us, to the next world; I will take ALL OF YOU, as brothers and sisters --- and I will be RICH with you, in His presence, forever.

And you say I have wisdom. You are way to kind. At this time, the garment's hem suffices to slake my soul.

hug:

Reciprocity and a holy kiss from the lips of God's Holy SPirit as he whispers great things into your ear.