Who Does God Hate?

[Athanasius]

Your words, not mine.

My words, your (lack of) action.

Please point out where I made that claim and I will humbly apologize. Sounds to me like you're speculating.

Not at all, I'm reading what you're saying.

Brother Mark,

You are talking about things that happened 2000 years ago that were written in a book that has been heavily edited, interpreted, translated, re-translated, re-edited, re-interpreted many times over the last 15 centuries. I love to read but I don't believe everything I read - if I did I would believe in Little Red Riding Hood and cows that jump over the moon.

I love reading about history, historical events and figures. But when I do I always keep in mind that there are three versions of any histoical event:

1. What actually happened
2. How people remember what happened
3. What those in authority want people to believe happened

The story of Christ falls somewhere between numbers 2 and 3. We cannot know what actually happened because none of us were there. There MIGHT be some eyewitness accounts but as I have stated, eyewitness accounts are not always reliable. The vast majority of what Christians believe about the life of Christ falls squarely under number 3. But according to the story, didn't Christ spend much of his ministry challenging and questioning the religious authorities of his time? He didn't believe just because someone told him what to believe. He challenged and questioned the established beliefs of his time and that made those in authority very uncomfortable.

Just because someone is willing to die for what he believes does not make it a valid belief. Suicide bombers do it all the time and I do not believe what they do either.

You're claiming your view is right, even if you want to say, 'I've never said those words exactly'.

I am not here to prove anything. I am looking for proof of the claims that you are making. You're pointing out words on paper that say certain extraordinary events occurred and calling that 'proof'. I am not rejecting those words. There they are. But they don't prove those events actually occurred.

Nor does the fact that they are 'on paper' or written after the events prove they didn't happen. If you want proof, it's all in the New Testament. Where else do you think we're going to get it from?

Please point out where I said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Speculation does not require proof. If there was proof it wouldn't be speculation and I've made it very clear that what I was saying was SPECULATION.

I know you're calling it speculation, but it isn't exactly speculation. It's 'speculation' predicated on so-much a priori knowledge. Namely that the New Testament isn't a reliable historical document. Your speculation is wrong and so is your understanding of the New Testament. But to show you that, I'd have to show you from the New Testament. Which you reject out of hand and have no interest in accepting.

I wonder where that leaves us...

Here is what I said. There is no 'just because'. There is no 'this is what really happened' (note the part where I say "I am NOT saying this is what really happened")

I'm well aware of what you said. I'll speculate against it (since speculation doesn't require proof), "The New Testament is a historically accurate text". Should we continue from there?

[Godmachine]

I know it's not what you want to hear and not what seems fair to you, but respecting your salvation, it's the former:

You will be judged based on what you did, of course. And on why you did it.

Two folks with the same beliefs, two completely opposite messages. Which is it? And you wonder why I 'choose' not to believe. Which one of you should I believe?

You really do have the wrong opinion of Christianity.

Read what you both said above. I believe what my eyes see. Therefore my opinion is one of confusion.

And no true believer will rape anybody.

Nobody who serves Jesus will ever commit gross sins like that. What you're describing is somebody who is no longer serving the Lord and who turned from Him long before that person is able to do such a thing.

Do you follow the news at all? Apparently scores of priests have done what you say no true believer would ever do. And for many years the Vatican and other church authorities covered it up. Are they not 'true believers'? It's easy to distance yourself from that and say they were not 'true believers' but I tend to think otherwise.

[Godmachine]

You're claiming your view is right, even if you want to say, 'I've never said those words exactly'.

To the quote you are referring to there (the 3 versions of history), yes I am reasonably sure I am right.

I wonder where that leaves us...

Stalemate

[Athanasius]

Stalemate

Only in the sense that we have different views, not that we can't attempt to reconcile them and know who is right or wrong.

[Desperaux]

Two folks with the same beliefs, two completely opposite messages. Which is it? And you wonder why I 'choose' not to believe. Which one of you should I believe?

I fail to see anything opposite.

Read what you both said above. I believe what my eyes see. Therefore my opinion is one of confusion.

The message of Jesus Christ is only confusing to those who do not understand it or receive it.

1 Corinthians 1:18
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

Do you follow the news at all? Apparently scores of priests have done what you say no true believer would ever do. And for many years the Vatican and other church authorities covered it up. Are they not 'true believers'? It's easy to distance yourself from that and say they were not 'true believers' but I tend to think otherwise.

No they aren't, obviously. Not all priests are born again and regenerated believers in Jesus Christ. They are what I call "cultural Christians", born into a dogma and merely accepting it as a way of life, not ever coming to grips with the reality of Jesus Christ the Person, but only embracing the form of religion. Very empty, indeed. These are those who bring the Lord Jesus' name into disrepute, by living in their own power, by their own standard of goodness and missing the mark by a mile.

True believers who have been washed by the Word and have a relationship with the living Jesus, are not living lives of degradation. They are living lives of love and wholeness and victory in Christ, and showing the world who He is, and loving others in His name.

[Godmachine]

I fail to see anything opposite.

One person said I would be judged according to what I believe. The other said I would be judged according to my actions. Did you 'choose' not to see that?

No they aren't, obviously. Not all priests are born again and regenerated believers in Jesus Christ. They are what I call "cultural Christians", born into a dogma and merely accepting it as a way of life, not ever coming to grips with the reality of Jesus Christ the Person, but only embracing the form of religion. Very empty, indeed. These are those who bring the Lord Jesus' name into disrepute, by living in their own power, by their own standard of goodness and missing the mark by a mile.

LOL. Oh that's rich. Priests are not true believers? The Vatican is not made up of true believers? Or are you just making up the rules as you go along?

[Dani H]

Two folks with the same beliefs, two completely opposite messages. Which is it? And you wonder why I 'choose' not to believe. Which one of you should I believe?

They're not opposite. Unbelief is a sin. You will be judged for that. In order for a person to look to Jesus to remove their sin and impart righteousness, they have to be aware of their sinful state before God and be willing to do something about it to begin with. Again, you have a conscience. You know right from wrong. You know when you sin, and when you don't. You know murder is wrong. You know greed and covetousness are wrong. You know lying is wrong. You know all these things because your conscience bears witness. And so when the Gospel is preached and Jesus is presented, then you can either say "nah thanks, I'm good" because you really don't want to bother unburdening yourself before a holy God, or you can embrace it and be free. People choose to sin. Every day. People sin, because they enjoy it. None of us are innocent. We all choose our own path. We're all free agents before God, by design.

It is your choice what to do about your wrongdoings before God. And coming to Jesus to deal with your sinful state, is understandably a bit like a burglar voluntarily seeking out the police. The Bible describes people tring to hide in caves and under rocks because they really want to just keep running away and doing what they're doing, and not stop. Sad, no? It's better to just man/woman up and face God and know where we stand, IMO. Cause we all have to face Him sooner or later anyway.

Belief in Jesus has nothing to do with mere mental assent. It has everything to do with wanting to make things right with God and wanting to stop sinning. A person who wants to stop sinning will be helped by God, every time. A person who doesn't want to bother ... will be left in their sin and be revealed nothing, because God knows your true state of heart and responds accordingly.

See how it's all connected and related?

Do you follow the news at all? Apparently scores of priests have done what you say no true believer would ever do. And for many years the Vatican and other church authorities covered it up. Are they not 'true believers'? It's easy to distance yourself from that and say they were not 'true believers' but I tend to think otherwise.

Regardless of what people may think, this is what Jesus had to say about who does, and who doesn't, belong to Him:

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Luke 6:43
“For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush."

Straightforward, no?

[Desperaux]

One person said I would be judged according to what I believe. The other said I would be judged according to my actions. Did you 'choose' not to see that?

They are both correct. We are going to be judged for what we embraced in belief, and we are going to be judged for what actions we took out of that belief.

LOL. Oh that's rich. Priests are not true believers? The Vatican is not made up of true believers? Or are you just making up the rules as you go along?

Many are not. If they are merely religious, there is a great likelihood that they embrace the Church, rather than Christ. Many do. Bad fruit, bad tree.

[Brother Mark]

LOL. Oh that's rich. Priests are not true believers? The Vatican is not made up of true believers? Or are you just making up the rules as you go along?

In Jesus day, as we spoke about earlier, it was the religious crowd that crucified him. They weren't "true believers" but they professed to be. The same happens today.

[Godmachine]

Unbelief is a sin.

By God's definition or yours? Nevermind I'm sure I already know your answer to that one.

People choose to sin. Every day. People sin, because they enjoy it. None of us are innocent. We all choose our own path. We're all free agents before God, by design.

I think I feel another thread coming on here. Could you please explain your concept of 'sin' to me. This is one that has always confused me.

[Desperaux]

The literal meaning of the word, "sin" is to "miss the mark".

Every single human being misses the mark with God. That is why He provided a way for us to be made right with Him so we can enjoy a loving Father-child relationship with Him. He loves us with an everlasting love and seeks after us, His unique creation--every individual is desired by Him.

[Dani H]

I think I feel another thread coming on here. Could you please explain your concept of 'sin' to me. This is one that has always confused me.

Sin is anything we do that is in opposition to God's holy nature.

God is good, holy, and righteous. He is the original "blueprint" on how we are to behave, as we were created in His image. Genesis is the original "blueprint" of how it all started, who God is, and how we all got here, and the original fellowship with God that Adam and Eve had. It also explains how sin entered and that it was by choice. Not by "oopsie I messed up and I didn't know it". That message is crystal clear, regardless of what other debates centered around Genesis you want to join.

As such, God has placed within all of us a compass, if you will, that points us to the "true north" of Himself. That is called our conscience. That thing within you that if you go to take a cookie you know you're not supposed to, and you feel guilty, but that cookie is looking mighty good and so you ignore the guilt and open the jar and munch away.

Romans has a lot to say about our conscience and how it can become seared if we continue to ignore it and just keep following after our baser instincts instead of trying to do right instead of wrong. It's right there in Chapter 1. I'd highly recommend Romans to you if you're trying to get your brain wrapped around sin and the foundations of the Gospel. Paul explains it marvelously and thoroughly.

You have to keep in mind that God isn't only the God of Christians. He is God of all mankind. He is God of all people. He deals and strives with each one of us. He has designed all of us a certain way. It doesn't matter if we're Muslim or Buddhist or atheists or whatever. We all have that conscience. He strives with all of us to keep us from wrongdoings and help us make right choices. And He will hold us all accountable to what we know.

And so if I say I know Jesus, and I have heard the Gospel and have had my eyes open and I understand what is really happening and what I'm supposed to do about it, then I am expected to conduct myself accordingly. Or God's dealings with me are going to be far more severe as they would be if I didn't know.

I can't fault a toddler for wanting "mine mine" and tossing sand at another kid in their immaturity. And for forgetting to go potty when they're busy playing.

But if a 30-year-old still chooses to wear a diaper and conduct themselves like they're 2 years old, then you and I both know that there is something very wrong. Because an adult knows better. And therefore more is expected. Jesus Himself said that to those who much is given, from those more is required and expected.

You say you've read the Bible. So you know. You've read the words of Jesus. So you know. And, whether or not you are in full agreement with His claims, you still know. God holds you accountable according to what you know. Not how you think, not what you say, not by your excuses, but by what you really and honestly know.

Do you know right from wrong?

If so, what are you going to do about it? What have you already done about it? And where does that put you?

That is the basic, basic question on which everything else hangs, really.

For those of us who have learned about sin beyond the mere basics, and try to strive against it, we soon find out that sin is a force of its own that is not easily overcome by our own strength. And so how wonderful it is when we have God Himself on our side, making us righteous, pulling us out, having given us His Son whose sacrifice was enough to pardon us, clean us up, and present us righteous and holy before a holy God so that we can begin a new life, with Him on our side, instead of always fighting and struggling against Him, like we're known to do when we think He is a God "somewhere up there/out there" instead of a God near to us. One of the names of Jesus is "Immanuel." Which means "God with us." What better than to have the King of the universe in our corner, teaching us personally and directly?

I can't think of a better way to live life, honestly. And, I pray you consider, and one day think the same. Because He really is just awesome beyond all description.

[Buck shot]

LOL. Oh that's rich. Priests are not true believers? The Vatican is not made up of true believers? Or are you just making up the rules as you go along?

Do you really believe that being a priest means you are a true believer? Do you also believe that being a policeman makes you honest? How about being a judge will make you right?

Many people believe in "religion" but only the ones that put their trust in Jesus will be forgiven their trespasses (sins) against God.

[mcgyver]

You had an interesting title for this thread: "Who does God Hate?", and then you mentioned Westboro Baptist church....

Firstly, Fred Phelps and his followers do not represent Christ or His church, nor do they represent Baptists as a whole, of which I am one. They have all the credibility of Jim Jones or David Koresh IMO, and are doing the cause of Jesus great dis-service and great harm.

As for your question: "Who does God Hate?"...would you be surprised if I answered: "No one"?

The bible tells us that God hates sin, but loves people.

Ezekiel 33:11 says: Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

John 3:16-17 reads: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Again in 2 Peter 3:9 we read: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But here's the rub...God is love, but He is also a God of righteousness, Holiness, and yes...judgment.

He loves people so much that He did all the work 2000 some years ago, and offers salvation as a gift to all who will take it.

Of course...if one refuses the gift of reconciliation with, and forgiveness of sin from God...it's not that God hates them...but that because He IS righteous...He must judge them.

I mean after all...if someone were to murder your best friend and their family, and the judge said "there, there, it's ok...I know you didn't really mean it so I'm going to give you a second chance and let you go"; that judge would be a very good judge, would he?

[Godmachine]

Do you really believe that being a priest means you are a true believer?

Priesthood would seem to indicate some kind of slant toward belief.