If we are in the millenium?????

[Desperaux]

He is not aware that he is being "set up" by YHWH: he thinks actually that he is going to win in the end . . .

Do you think he can't read? That he doesn't know the Scriptures?

[billy-brown 2]

Thanks Billy Brown,

We must therefore know who the beast and the false prophet are, we must know what is the mark of the beast, we must know the image of the beast. For the first resurrection to take place those mentioned must have been killed during that time.

Jesus must have returned in order for the beast and the false prophet to be destroyed, if they are already gone then we must say that Jesus has already returned.

If we do not have answers for what has been pointed out, then we are still looking at a future event and a specific group and time.

Satan still deceives, until he is unable to do so as it is written then it is yet to come.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits,

There are no Christian martyrs that have died after the Second Coming of Christ, because the Second Coming of Christ has not happened yet.

All of us are awaiting the blessed event of these verses:

Phil 3:20-21
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Heb. 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

And so, here is Rev. 20:4 again:

Rev. 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

According to this verse, the martyrs are reigning currently with (i.e., alongside of) Christ.

But the current reign of the martyrs has a limit: "1000 years."

On the other hand, the reign of Christ is eternal and limitless, since he has a glorified immortal body now.

Right?

The martyrs, of course, do not now have a glorified immortal body, since the events of Phil. 3:20-21 and Heb. 9:27-28 have not occurred yet.

But the eternal state will come for the martyrs at the Second Coming of Christ--and then Dan 7:27 will be fulfilled completely:

Dan. 7:27
27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Now, here are a few references which indicate the current eternal reign of Christ at YHWH's right hand since His resurrection/ascension:

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand . . .

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God . . .

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high . . .

Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens . . .

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God . . .

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

We also have this additional reference from Heb 8 (see the red words):

1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Now, Christ has been sitting on the right hand of God in the true tabernacle in heaven since His resurrection/ascension. And this true heavenly tabernacle is eternal--and will never be destroyed, yes?

So, how long has it been since Christ has been ruling and reigning at the right hand of God in the true tabernacle in heaven?

It has been at least 2000 years so far . . . right?

So, has the Second Coming of Christ happened yet? No.

Are the martyrs still ruling with (alongside of) Christ now? Yes.

( Rev. 20:4b . . . "for a thousand years." . . . )



(See what I am getting at?)

[billy-brown 2]

Do you think he can't read? That he doesn't know the Scriptures?

LOL

Desperaux,

I'm sure that Satan knows scripture, but he can not hear revelation from the Holy Spirit.

But you and I can, yes?

[Desperaux]

LOL

Desperaux,

I'm sure that Satan knows scripture, but he can not hear revelation from the Holy Spirit.

But you and I can, yes?

He knows he is doomed. He isn't stupid. He wants to take as many down with him as he can--why? Because he hates all flesh--God loves man, created in His image.

[theBelovedDisciple]

Do you think he can't read? That he doesn't know the Scriptures?

he does and he can................

'something' can't know that his time is 'short' unless he 'knows' his end is near.. he knows this by Scripture....

the Wicked One, knows how to read, he has will and intent..

how else does he 'pervert' the Truth and Scripture by twisting it..

but by 'knowing' the Scripture first hand... and then Twisting and wresting it...

remember he's always wanted to be 'like God'... and he'll twist and pervert the Truth....to fit his theology that perverts and decieves. taking those who follow his perversion with him.. to destruction... Eternal Damnation...

he 'knows' the Scriptures and he is a master theologian..

in the end he will pervert the masses thru false teachings, false signs and wonders, even making himself out to be the messiah.. this thru the son of perdition that will come unto the world scene.. coming as a man of peace.. but its a mask.. then demanding 'worship', this on a global scale, as 'god'..... decieving the masses prior to that that they can create their own 'heaven' on Earth.. without 'Jesus coming from Heaven, Literally and Physically like its foretold in His Revelation... by His Servant John..

this deception will be global in scale.. heaven on earth.. a psuedo kingdom with the anti christ and false prophet at the helm of it.. truly a ship that is tossed to and fro.. bound for destruction... this psuedo kingdom.....that will come under the Judgement of God.. and will end in destruction.. along with the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man from Heaven with His Armies and Saints.. this time not as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.. but the King of kings and Lord of lords.. the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.. Victorious and Glorious in His Train.. His Vesture Dipped in Blood.. conquering and Victorious Over His enemies.. those who worship the Beast, and the armies of the earth...... who have turned their weapons away from the nation of Isreal... and turn them towards the sky and upon the Son of Man as He is revealed from Heaven in Power and Glory.. this the culmination of the Hour of Temptation that will come upon this whole earth...

he that hath ears let him hear..

Pray always that ye may be counted Worthy , and to escape those things that are coming to this earth.. and to Stand before the Son of Man..

Pray always,, and again I say Pray....

[billy-brown 2]

He knows he is doomed. He isn't stupid. He wants to take as many down with him as he can--why? Because he hates all flesh--God loves man, created in His image.

Yep . . . he isn't stupid.

However, there are some things that Satan is not aware of.

For a past example (I know that you know this set of verses apropos the first advent of Christ):

I Cor. 2
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9 but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”

And Satan was the "energy" behind the crucifixion of Christ. Nevertheless, Satan did not know what was waiting on him:

Col. 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

This is a "rope-a-dope set up" of Satan, indeed.

Right?

Go Jesus, go . . .

[divaD]

DivaD,

I hear you--really I do.

However, one of the main points apropos the "1000 years" is to allow all of us to observe the superiority of YHWH's gamesmanship against Satan. This is what the "1000 years" is about primarily (it seems to me).

So, let's look again at the appropriate scriptures on this:

Now verses 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, and 10 seem to be key apropos Satan:

YHWH has "bound" Satan
specifically
to "release" Satan
to his doom in the lake of fire.
(But this is a "restriction binding" only,
because of the truth of I Peter 5:8.)

In other words, Satan can not even initiate his own doom--it is controlled over the "1000 years" in every way by YHWH. That doom was indeed initiated through the sacrifice of the Lamb of God at Calvary. (See 1 John 3:8.)

So according to the applicable verses, Satan cannot begin to deceive nations to gather FOR a battle until he is "released" BY YHWH from a "restriction binding" to do so. And this is the first thing that Satan does when he is "released" from the "binding", yes?

Then, the "set up" is complete: YHWH devourers by fire the rebel armies of the nations (Gog and Magog) that have been deceived by Satan to gather against the saints and the beloved city, and casts Satan into the Lake of Fire.

And YHWH is in control of every bit of this destruction "set up" of Satan from beginning to end.

Now, all of this has implications apropos Saint Stephen.

After all, if Saint Stephen was killed in the 1st century, then is he not one of the saints referred to in Rev. 16:6?

If so, then the people who had the "Mark of the Beast" stoned Him (read Acts 6 and 7).

Thus, the Beast had to be around during this time as well. After all, the Beast "carries" the "harlot", and the "harlot" sits" on the Beast, yes?

And the Beast is controlled by Satan, the Dragon, yes? Someone may now say " . . . but I thought Satan was bound . . ."

No . . .

Satan is bound from completing the "1000-year" process of his own destruction in the lake of fire--it's a "set-up" by YHWH. (Of course, there are other things he can not do also, but I am speaking specifically to the verses of Rev. 20:1-10.)

This means Satan can still do the following now:

1) energize the Beast and the false prophet (Rev. 13)
2) seek whom he may devour (1 Pet. 5:8)
3) work in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2)
4) send fiery darts to Christians (Eph. 6)
5) etc.

Remember, Satan does not have omniscience.

He is not aware that he is being "set up" by YHWH: he thinks actually that he is going to win in the end . . .

What self-deception, indeed . . .

Does this make sense?

Billy-brown 2, I hear you also, and it's not that I'm disagreeing with your conclusions, I simply feel, based on the text, that you have these things out of chronological order. It appears to me that the binding of satan, and the reigning with Christ 1000 yrs must happen at the commencing of it, and that this must happen after Christ's 2nd coming.

Since I'm certain that we both agree, that Rev 20 1-4 are describing the same period of time, then whatever we conclude from verse 4, must also apply to verse 1-3.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years


One clue in the text states that some were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. Now it might seem reasonable to conclude that this would occur after Christ's resurrection, but we do have John the Baptist to consider. He was certainly beheaded, and it was before Jesus had even died. But then we see the following: and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The question is, are all of these different groups, or does all of it apply to them all? By that I mean, and let''s take John the Baptist for example. We know that he was beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God. But does it also mean that he had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon his forehead , or in his hands, or should we classify the latter as an entirely different group?


The next question would be, in order for those in Rev 20:4 to live and reign with Christ first, they need to be literally physically resurrected. Since that doesn't occur until Christ returns, then how is that physical resurrection possible, if we conclude that we are presently in the millenium, and that all of these in verse 4 were physically resurrected before they even died, because verse 4 indicates the 1st resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1000 yrs?



In order for me to even begin to fully agree with your conclusions, you or someone will have to show why it is not logical, that the 1000 yrs begins after the fate of all those described in Rev 20:4 is fullfilled.

[billy-brown 2]

Billy-brown 2, I hear you also, and it's not that I'm disagreeing with your conclusions, I simply feel, based on the text, that you have these things out of chronological order. It appears to me that the binding of satan, and the reigning with Christ 1000 yrs must happen at the commencing of it, and that this must happen after Christ's 2nd coming.

Since I'm certain that we both agree, that Rev 20 1-4 are describing the same period of time, then whatever we conclude from verse 4, must also apply to verse 1-3.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years


One clue in the text states that some were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. Now it might seem reasonable to conclude that this would occur after Christ's resurrection, but we do have John the Baptist to consider. He was certainly beheaded, and it was before Jesus had even died. But then we see the following: and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The question is, are all of these different groups, or does all of it apply to them all? By that I mean, and let''s take John the Baptist for example. We know that he was beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God. But does it also mean that he had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon his forehead , or in his hands, or should we classify the latter as an entirely different group?


The next question would be, in order for those in Rev 20:4 to live and reign with Christ first, they need to be literally physically resurrected. Since that doesn't occur until Christ returns, then how is that physical resurrection possible, if we conclude that we are presently in the millenium, and that all of these in verse 4 were physically resurrected before they even died, because verse 4 indicates the 1st resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1000 yrs?



In order for me to even begin to fully agree with your conclusions, you or someone will have to show why it is not logical, that the 1000 yrs begins after the fate of all those described in Rev 20:4 is fullfilled.

yep . . . yep . . . yep . . . I hear you . . .

But divaD,

John the Baptist can not be considered as part of what John SAW in the vision of Rev. 20.

Why?

Because Christ's reign at YHWH's right hand began after His resurrection/ascension--this is His vindication (see Heb.12:2). And since that time, Christ has been reigning already--at YHWH's right hand.

So, John is shown in the vision that the souls of "those that were beheaded by the Beast" come alongside of this current reign of Christ to reign and accomplish priestly duties in heaven. Therefore, these are physically DEAD people.

(physically dead . . . dead . . . dead . . .)

Therefore, they live now . . . while DEAD.

Indeed, John sees in the vision that their souls are alive in heaven as priests and kings (ruling) with . . . Christ.

And this is part of the vindication for these martyrs; remember, they became martyrs because they were not deceived by the false prophet:

Rev. 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

Therefore, they DIED--at the hands of the Beast.

Indeed, there are NO Christian martyrs that have died after the Second Coming of Christ, because the Second Coming of Christ is what every saint (including the martyrs) is waiting on with patience and faith.

And so, I might have these things as you say here:

I simply feel, based on the text, that you have these things out of chronological order.

but I don't know any other conclusion to draw . . .

Maybe I should study it some more . . .

[billy-brown 2]

Hello Billy Brown, (Hope you don’t mind if gang up on you) Firstfruits can still answer you. What you said does make sense. There were some Jews that had “THE MARK” at that time, but it didn’t become the mark of the “Beast” until the 3rd century. The same “Mark” was used for the worshipers of Tammuz.
Eze 8:13 And He said to me, "Turn again, and you will see greater abominations that they are doing."
Eze 8:14 So He brought me to the door of the north gate of the Lord's house; and to my dismay, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz.
Eze 8:15 Then He said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Turn again, you will see greater abominations than these."
Eze 8:16 So He brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house; and there, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, and they were worshiping the sun toward the east.

LOL

TW,

All I am saying is this--

If there are some things that are indisputable as fact historically from scripture, why not use it to make some sense out of what may not be so clear apropos the "1000 years" and so on?

That's all I am trying to do . . .

And by the way, there are a lot of gangs at this forum . . . but it's OK . . .

[JCE]

if i may,wording is proper. it reads, in the hand, and in the forehead.the mark in the forehead is what you believe is right yet not in christ. Jesus faned the flames of righteousness with his hands.what is evil. fanning the flames of evil.

[Desperaux]

if i may,wording is proper. it reads, in the hand, and in the forehead.the mark in the forehead is what you believe is right yet not in christ. Jesus faned the flames of righteousness with his hands.what is evil. fanning the flames of evil.

The scripture is giving us a picture of what we need to look for as signs of the end. When the word tells us that there will be a mark in the hand or in the forehead, we ought not to be waxing mystical about it.

[Raybob]

The scripture is giving us a picture of what we need to look for as signs of the end. When the word tells us that there will be a mark in the hand or in the forehead, we ought not to be waxing mystical about it.

If the bible said "on" instead of "in", I would agree with you. It doesn't. It says "in" or right (swearing) hand or "in" your forehead. The only way anything can get "in" your forehead is through your mind.

Just like Christians are "sealed" with the seal of redemption, others are "marked". This buying and selling doesn't have to do with merchandise, it has to do with the true gospel message.

Raybob

[Desperaux]

If the bible said "on" instead of "in", I would agree with you. It doesn't. It says "in" or right (swearing) hand or "in" your forehead. The only way anything can get "in" your forehead is through your mind.

Just like Christians are "sealed" with the seal of redemption, others are "marked". This buying and selling doesn't have to do with merchandise, it has to do with the true gospel message.

Raybob

Yes, there will be something placed in the hand or in the forehead. Ever heard of implants? They are planning on using that technology imminently. It will be used to identify and for buying and selling purposes.

We are sealed with a marker that can be seen in the spiritual realm. THIS is not what the bible is referring to.



edit:
Other bible versions say "on the hand" and "on the forehead"...who cares? It is a mark we will be forced upon people.

[Firstfruits]

yep . . . yep . . . yep . . . I hear you . . .

But divaD,

John the Baptist can not be considered as part of what John SAW in the vision of Rev. 20.

Why?

Because Christ's reign at YHWH's right hand began after His resurrection/ascension--this is His vindication (see Heb.12:2). And since that time, Christ has been reigning already--at YHWH's right hand.

So, John is shown in the vision that the souls of "those that were beheaded by the Beast" come alongside of this current reign of Christ to reign and accomplish priestly duties in heaven. Therefore, these are physically DEAD people.

(physically dead . . . dead . . . dead . . .)

Therefore, they live now . . . while DEAD.

Indeed, John sees in the vision that their souls are alive in heaven as priests and kings (ruling) with . . . Christ.

And this is part of the vindication for these martyrs; remember, they became martyrs because they were not deceived by the false prophet:

Rev. 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

Therefore, they DIED--at the hands of the Beast.

Indeed, there are NO Christian martyrs that have died after the Second Coming of Christ, because the Second Coming of Christ is what every saint (including the martyrs) is waiting on with patience and faith.

And so, I might have these things as you say here:



but I don't know any other conclusion to draw . . .

Maybe I should study it some more . . .

We may know when Jesus began his reign, however the resurrection of Rev.20 is not the resurrection of Christ but of those that were killed during the reign of the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

They died FOR Jesus. They were not resurrected when Christ was resurrected.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

If we are in the millenium then what accoding to the scriptures should we expect to be happening to those that have worshiped the beast and the false prophet? Where are those that have taken the mark of the beast?

When according to the scriptures will Satan be released from the pit, which must be done before Jesus has returned?

God bless you!

Firstfruits