If we are in the millenium?????

[RogerW]

Roger,
But doesn't this understanding give the impression that satan is a bit more powerful than what he is, and that because of this, God has to bind him during the church age, otherwise satan might literally be able to stop the spread of the gospel? Good thing God has him bound, right? Just think if he wan't, he might actually win the battle and defeat God. Anyway, that's the impression I get from this understanding.

Hi David,

If Satan had not been bound by Christ's death and resurrection, then he would still have power over death, and no man could enter into eternal life. To be bound and cast in the pit, means that Satan is the one who is now bound by death [bottomless abyss]. It isn't a matter of Satan defeating God, it was simply that before Christ, Satan had power to keep God's people from entering into eternal life. Christ must be born a man, suffer and die and be raised again if He is to set the captives free. All those saints under the Old Covenant, who died in faith did not receive the promise of eternal inheritance. How could they since Christ had not yet come to free them from the power of death the devil held them in? Since the cross, not only have they gone spiritually to heaven, but we too go to heaven to be with the Lord at the moment of physical death.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Ro 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Ho 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So now Satan is the one who is bound in death, and it is Christ Who holds the keys of hell and death. Satan could never defeat God because Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Eternal redemption in His blood was written in heaven for all who would be saved before the creation. Since Christ was victorious over death and the grave, Satan is left without strength, because even in a martyrs death he cannot keep God's elect from entering into His eternal Kingdom. That's why Christ tells us, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." So you see Satan had to be bound by Christ so that all glory, honor and praise would be unto God alone!

Many Blessings,
RW

[Desperaux]

1 Peter 5:8
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.



Satan isn't in the abyss at the present time.

[divaD]

If Satan had not been bound by Christ's death and resurrection, then he would still have power over death, and no man could
enter into eternal life. To be bound and cast in the pit, means that Satan is the one who is now bound by death [bottomless
abyss]. It isn't a matter of Satan defeating God, it was simply that before Christ, Satan had power to keep God's people
from entering into eternal life. Christ must be born a man, suffer and die and be raised again if He is to set the captives free.
All those saints under the Old Covenant, who died in faith did not receive the promise of eternal inheritance. How could they
since Christ had not yet come to free them from the power of death the devil held them in? Since the cross, not only have
they gone spiritually to heaven, but we too go to heaven to be with the Lord at the moment of physical death.

Roger, I agree with you here. I pretty much understand this as you do. I just don't connect this to Rev ch 20. Rev 20 chronologically follows the events of the preceeeding chs. The reason satan gets bound for 1000 yrs is because he has been deceiving the nations up to this point. The sense I get from that binding is not limitation, but
ceasing to be able to do period, While satan is bound for 1000 yrs, he can deceive the nations no more. That's what the text states.



Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


This in my opin fits in with 2 Thess 2...


2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




Clearly, IMO, one of satan's main weapon is deceit. he used it in the garden to destroy man. satan is still employing deceit this very day.
It will only be when he is literally bound in the abyss for 1000 yrs, that he won't be able to deceive anyone. Since the proceeding chs in Rev show that satan is using deceit as a weapon against the truth, then one can conclude that Rev 20:1-3 is yet future. We have to interpret Rev 20 in context with the preceeding chs, because Rev 20 follows the preceeding events chronologically. It's because of the preceeding events that we can understand why satan is bound for 1000 yrs, because clearly, he has been deceiving the nations up unto this point. Up unto what point? The return of Christ in ch 19.

Roger, once again, it's not that I disagree with your conclusions, it's that I just don't connect Rev 20 to your conclusions. I believe Rev 20 is an entirely different context than what your conclusions are.

[RogerW]

Roger, I agree with you here. I pretty much understand this as you do. I just don't connect this to Rev ch 20. Rev 20 chronologically follows the events of the preceeeding chs. The reason satan gets bound for 1000 yrs is because he has been deceiving the nations up to this point. The sense I get from that binding is not limitation, but ceasing to be able to do period, While satan is bound for 1000 yrs, he can deceive the nations no more. That's what the text states.

Hi David,

The way I read Revelation is through repetition of the same events. I see a progression of things from the end of the Old and the beginning of the New Covenant in almost every chapter. I know Revelation cannot be read chronologically because Rev 12 shows the birth of Christ and the establishment of the NT church in history, and Rev 11 ends with the sounding of the 7th angel. According to Rev 10 "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished" and "that there should be time no longer."

The binding of Satan in Rev 20 is in the same sense that every man is bound by death when he/she is physically born. Unless we are born again then we will physically die in this bondage to death. Unsaved man is not literally bound, but they will most assuredly die the second death if they die without Christ. Since Christ, Satan too is now bound by death. Rev 20 shows his binding, not his destruction. Just as man is bound to die, though physically living, so too Satan is bound by death and he will most assuredly be destroyed by the second death.

The only people Satan ever has authority over are unbelievers. He is able to kill believers, but this simply enlarges the Kingdom of God. What Satan intends for evil, is actually used by God to build His eternal Kingdom. Because there is no fear of death for believers, for to be absent from these bodies is to be present in heaven with the Lord. This is only true because Christ defeated Satan, and death, therefore death cannot hold believers because now Christ holds the keys of death and hell, and Satan is the one who is now bound, and he will continue to hold unbelievers in this bondage to death until he is utterly destroyed in the end of time. Satan's bondage was never to free unbelievers, but to free the elect of God from the bondage of the grave. Never again will Satan be permitted to hold believers in the grave as he had before the cross. Our bodies die and go into the grave, but believers have His promise of eternal life. So even though our bodies go into the grave to await the bodily resurrection, we never die!

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

This in my opin fits in with 2 Thess 2...

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Clearly, IMO, one of satan's main weapon is deceit. he used it in the garden to destroy man. satan is still employing deceit this very day.

But who is buying the deception of Satan? Certainly not the elect, for God is building His eternal Kingdom. Satan is deceiving those who worship him, those who do not love the truth, that they might be saved.

It will only be when he is literally bound in the abyss for 1000 yrs, that he won't be able to deceive anyone.

If it were true that the time will come when Satan cannot deceive anyone, then there would be no reason for the second death. You cannot read a book written in symbolic language literally. How can a spirit being be literally bound with literal chains? Is Rev 13 speaking of a literal Lamb, dragon, and beast? Even when Satan is loosed and appears to be free again to deceive even the elect, we find him instead gathering a great army to come against the saints one last time, thinking now he can defeat God. But he doesn't get to overcome the saints as he once had, because fire from God comes down out of heaven and devours them, and the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have also been cast.

Since the proceeding chs in Rev show that satan is using deceit as a weapon against the truth, then one can conclude that Rev 20:1-3 is yet future.

If Rev 20:1-3 is yet future, then no man has yet entered into eternal life in Christ. Satan still has power over the grave, so that all who go there cannot enter into eternal life. If Rev 20:1-3 is yet future than the kingdom is not now being built, because Satan is yet free to deceive the nations.

We have to interpret Rev 20 in context with the preceeding chs, because Rev 20 follows the preceeding events chronologically. It's because of the preceeding events that we can understand why satan is bound for 1000 yrs, because clearly, he has been deceiving the nations up unto this point. Up unto what point? The return of Christ in ch 19.

When Christ returns time ends! How can there yet be 1000 years of time since time has ended?

Roger, once again, it's not that I disagree with your conclusions, it's that I just don't connect Rev 20 to your conclusions. I believe Rev 20 is an entirely different context than what your conclusions are.

Either Rev 20 is showing us how Christ defeated Satan at the cross and resurrection, or we must acknowledge that Christ has not been building His eternal Church throughout the NT era, because Satan is still free to hold every man in bondage to death and the grave.

You cannot read the book of Revelation chronologically, nor can it always be read literally.

Many Blessings,
RW

[divaD]

You cannot read the book of Revelation chronologically, nor can it always be read literally.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger, let's get this out of the way first. I never suggested that the entire book of Revelation is to be read chronologically nor literally. I'm specifically speaking of Rev ch 20 and how that it follows the preceeding events chronologically. If the reason satan is bound, is so that he can deceive the nations no more, then obviously it means that satan has been deceiving the nations. The next problem is this, if we interpret the 1000 yrs to mean the gospel era, and at the same time agree that satan can't deceive the nations during that time, then that understanding is clearly contradicted by what is recorded in chs prior to ch 20. Not only do those chs show that satan is indeed deceiving the nations, it also shows that he is doing it during the gospel era, and before and up to the 2nd coming of Christ.

[divaD]

Either Rev 20 is showing us how Christ defeated Satan at the cross and resurrection,

Roger, let me ask you this, if what you are saying is true, then why is this put towards the end of the book, and not towards the beginning of it? If the context in ch 19 is depicting Christ's 2nd coming, and His defeat of the armies gathered against Him, then why would Rev 20:1-3 all of a sudden take us back to the 1st century? Then if that's not enough, the verses that follow in Rev 20 then once again takes us to the future. That doesn't make sense to me nor does it flow with the preceeding context.

Since the book of Revelation itself indicates that this book is prophetic in nature, and if Rev 20:11-15 is clearly prophetic and still future, why wouldn't Rev 20:1-3 also be?

[RogerW]

Roger, let's get this out of the way first. I never suggested that the entire book of Revelation is to be read chronologically nor literally. I'm specifically speaking of Rev ch 20 and how that it follows the preceeding events chronologically. If the reason satan is bound, is so that he can deceive the nations no more, then obviously it means that satan has been deceiving the nations. The next problem is this, if we interpret the 1000 yrs to mean the gospel era, and at the same time agree that satan can't deceive the nations during that time, then that understanding is clearly contradicted by what is recorded in chs prior to ch 20. Not only do those chs show that satan is indeed deceiving the nations, it also shows that he is doing it during the gospel era, and before and up to the 2nd coming of Christ.

David, what is your understanding of deceiving the nations? Of course Satan was, is, and will always be deceiving the nations. But what does that mean? When Satan is bound will every single person in every single nation no longer be deceived? Are you saying that during his binding, after the Second Coming, that there will be a thousand year period when everyone on earth will no longer be deceived? A thousand years represents time, but when Christ returns time will be no more (Rev 10:6).

If the church is universally scattered throughout the 'nations', and through the church the elect are hearing the gospel and coming into the kingdom, then the elect are not being deceived by Satan. Therefore Satan must, at least in some sense, be bound now, otherwise how could any enter into the kingdom of God?

Many Blessings,
RW

[Desperaux]

Many believers are being deceived daily. We mustn't kid ourselves. The Word is full of warnings to us to be alert and watchful.

[RogerW]

Roger, let me ask you this, if what you are saying is true, then why is this put towards the end of the book, and not towards the beginning of it? If the context in ch 19 is depicting Christ's 2nd coming, and His defeat of the armies gathered against Him, then why would Rev 20:1-3 all of a sudden take us back to the 1st century? Then if that's not enough, the verses that follow in Rev 20 then once again takes us to the future. That doesn't make sense to me nor does it flow with the preceeding context.

Since the book of Revelation itself indicates that this book is prophetic in nature, and if Rev 20:11-15 is clearly prophetic and still future, why wouldn't Rev 20:1-3 also be?

David, I believe the book of Revelation repeats the same events again and again, with each repetition giving us more detail of what unfolds throughout redemptive history.

For example I believe Rev 4 & 5 could be God giving John a glimpse of heaven from eternity. What I mean is that God is showing John the Covenant of Redemption established in heaven before creation. John sees what God has planned, how Christ from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David will be the Lamb slain for His elect people. John sees in this vision all who will be redeemed, "by thy [Christ's] blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation". John, like God, is priveleged to see a picture of God's completed eternal Kingdom before time began.

Then in chap 6 after seeing the four horses sent unto all the earth, each for a unique purpose, John sees under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. I believe these symbolize OT saints who died [slain] in faith before the first coming of Christ. After they are given white robes and told they must wait for the rest, I believe vs 12-17 symbolically describes the first advent of Christ, or the beginning of the New Covenant. I believe the first coming is also described as a day of wrath in OT prophesy.

Then chap 7 begins again with what I believe describes the Day of Pentecost with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. First we see OT saints who died in faith sealed [spiritually resurrected to heaven] just prior to the gospel message going unto all the world. Then in vs 9-17 we find a description of the great multitude that comes into the kingdom through the gospel of salvation.

Anyway I believe we find this repetition again and again. First we see the OT ending with only an elect remnant, or firstfruit, then we see the victory of Christ, and His gospel of salvation going unto all the world. Rev 20 begins with Christ's victory over Satan and death. Satan is bound, the gospel of salvation goes unto all the world, and the redeemed elect live and reign with Christ spiritually until the end of time.

Satan is given one more taste of freedom, and thinks he can now defeat Christ, but when he gathers all them he has deceived fire comes down from God out of heaven and Satan's time is finished. Finally we see the great White Throne Judgment against "the dead", and all things written are finished.

None of this is written in stone. Very clearly I don't have all the answers, and maybe no understanding of the book of Revelation. But one thing I know with great assurance is that chapter 20, like every other chapter in this book must be understood symbolically. If we try to force a literal interpretation into Rev 20 we may as well look to books like "The Left Behind" series to formulate our understanding of end things.

Many Blessings,
RW

[RogerW]

Many believers are being deceived daily. We mustn't kid ourselves. The Word is full of warnings to us to be alert and watchful.

You are absolutely correct Desperaux! What I should have said is that not one of the elect of God will be deceived. Many who profess to believe are indeed deceived into believing another gospel. But these are mere professors without the gift of true saving faith that is given to all who are predestined unto eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW

[divaD]

Satan is given one more taste of freedom, and thinks he can now defeat Christ, but when he gathers all them he has deceived
fire comes down from God out of heaven and Satan's time is finished.

Roger, let's consider this logically. Logically this has to occur after the 1000 yrs have expired. Logically Christ has to return at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. Even if we put Christ's return at the end of the 1000 yrs, there's still that little season where satan will be deceiving the nations while Christ is physically on the earth.

If this is not the case, then one must conclude that Christ returns after the 1000 yrs are expired, and after the little season has also expired. Where in the book of Revelation does it clearly depict Christ returning after this 1000 yrs, and after this little season?


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


No matter how one chooses to look at things, not only did the events leading up to this 1000 yrs occur prior to the 1000 yrs, the living and reigning with Christ 1000 yrs has to begin at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. If the 1000 yrs represents the gospel era, then there is clearly a contradiction here, namely this..."not only did the events leading up to this 1000 yrs occur prior to the 1000 yrs, the living and reigning with Christ 1000 yrs has to begin at the beginning of the 1000 yrs". Speaking for myself, I see a contradiction here. What's interesting about it, if one interprets the 1000 yrs literally, there appears to be no contradictions, nor does ch 20 flow out of context with the preceeding events leading up to the 1000 yrs.

[RogerW]

Roger, let's consider this logically. Logically this has to occur after the 1000 yrs have expired. Logically Christ has to return at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. Even if we put Christ's return at the end of the 1000 yrs, there's still that little season where satan will be deceiving the nations while Christ is physically on the earth.

David, according to the following passages time is no more when the seventh angel begins to sound. And at the sound of the seventh angel the dead are judged and the saints receive their eternal reward. According to Rev 22:12 we receive our reward when Christ comes again. Where can I find another 1000 years after Christ has come again? Time ends when He comes again, and we receive our reward when He comes again. There will not be yet another 1000 years of time because at His Second Coming we enter into eternity where no time exists.

Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Many Blessings,
RW

[Desperaux]

As the Millennial Reign takes place here on earth, time will count out to 1000 years just as the Word tells us.

Revelation 10:6 says nothing about time being no more---it speaks of "no more delay".

Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

[divaD]

Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and
that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name,
small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Roger, so your conclusion would be that the wrath of God occurs after time is no longer, or IOW inside of eternity? What does verse 18 indicate that is still to occur after the 7th angel has sounded? there's still the wrath of God to deal with, or IOW the day of the Lord. Coming from your perspective, wouldn't the Lord deal with everything first inside of time, instead of dealing with it inside of eternity, where time no longer matters?

[RogerW]

Roger, so your conclusion would be that the wrath of God occurs after time is no longer, or IOW inside of eternity? What does verse 18 indicate that is still to occur after the 7th angel has sounded? there's still the wrath of God to deal with, or IOW the day of the Lord. Coming from your perspective, wouldn't the Lord deal with everything first inside of time, instead of dealing with it inside of eternity, where time no longer matters?

David, I believe Scripture tells us that the wrath of God comes at the completion of time. Rev 11 tells us the two witness (which I believe to be the universal church throughout redemptive history) hear a voice "saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." And in the same hour (symbolizes, immediately ???) God's wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth. All that is left is the third woe which comes quickly (without delay) when the seventh angel begins to sound, and time is no more. Then in vs 18 we read the judgment of the dead, and reward for the saints.

Many Blessings,
RW