Messianic Judaism

**David Taylor** · Sep 8th 2009, 04:41 PM

This thread is getting a bit too heated folks....it's on the track for early retirement if this continues...Please ease up on one another.

***Studyin'2Show*** · Sep 8th 2009, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by David Taylor

This thread is getting a bit too heated folks....it's on the track for early retirement if this continues...Please ease up on one another.

Oh, I apologize if it seemed that way but Fenris and I meant no ill will toward each other.

Just sharing ideas.

God Bless!
Denise

**Fenris** · Sep 8th 2009, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show

The OP in this thread has not asked anyone to define Judaism. The question was concerning MESSIANIC Judaism. Are you a practitioner of that?

You're putting the accent on the wrong word. It's messianic JUDAISM.

As for the crusaders status, it is not my position to judge. I am quite sure my Father in heaven will do that.

OK, so the Christian status of crusaders is unknown, but messianic Jews are in fact Jews? How come one group's self definition is good and the other group's isn't?

I would not expect you to judge me or any other Christian based on their actions any more than you would expect me to judge you based on the actions of Jewish Sadducees who denied the world to come. Did they not also call themselves Jews?

Their beliefs were in fact not Jewish. We both say that.

How about the large number of those who call themselves Jews and are agnostic or atheist?

They are lapsed Jews.

Do you expect me to judge you by them?

I don't expect you to 'judge' anything. But words have to mean something.

**Fenris** · Sep 8th 2009, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show

Oh, I apologize if it seemed that way but Fenris and I meant no ill will toward each other.

Just sharing ideas.

God Bless!
Denise

Yeah, we cool. Been chatting on many subjects for some time. It's all about the ideas, nothing personal is meant or implied.

***Studyin'2Show*** · Sep 9th 2009, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Fenris

You're putting the accent on the wrong word. It's messianic JUDAISM.

OK, so the Christian status of crusaders is unknown, but messianic Jews are in fact Jews? How come one group's self definition is good and the other group's isn't?

Their beliefs were in fact not Jewish. We both say that.
They are lapsed Jews.
I don't expect you to 'judge' anything. But words have to mean something.

Let me take your points one at a time. I could say YOU are accenting the wrong word it's MESSIANIC Judaism, but what would that really mean? It is not about how YOU define them, it is about how THEY define themselves. If someone calls their self a Black Panther, though they may be black they are not a large cat. But if it's how THEY define themselves it has to count. It not up to me to say no you're not. No matter what you may believe you do not own the word Judaism. It is not trademarked so, in fact, anyone else may use it in any way they please. Though that may be a legal issue, on a more basic level, if they define Judaism as worshipping YHWH and following His precepts and statutes, that they recognize Messiah takes nothing away from that.

When did I say the status of the crusaders was unknown? God certainly knows whether they served Him or not. What I said is that I can not judge each of their motivation or faith. That is FAR beyond my understanding so why would I even bother? I judge myself and my own faith, not yours or theirs or anyone else's. By the same token, neither can I judge the whole of those who call themselves Messianic Jews, nor would I try. I merely responded to the OP's question of WHY the consider themselves as such. I personally do not believe in labels. I would be perfectly fine if no one ever called me Christian or Messianic or whatever. I call myself a Disciple of Messiah and a follower of God Most High. Will I answer to Christian? Sure! Will I answer to Messianic? Certainly! But what you or anyone else calls me matters for nothing. That my Lord call me His own is what matters!

Yet, the Sadduccees not only called themselves Jews but in their time those around them also recognized them as Jews.

Yet, would you be offended somehow if a non-observant (atheist/agnostic) Jew called themselves Jewish? I've never seen that outrage amongst Jews that I know.

Words certainly have meaning and I have attempted to explain what meaning those words (Messianic Judaism) mean to those who adhere to it.

God Bless!
Denise

**Fenris** · Sep 9th 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show

Let me take your points one at a time. I could say YOU are accenting the wrong word it's MESSIANIC Judaism, but what would that really mean? It is not about how YOU define them, it is about how THEY define themselves. If someone calls their self a Black Panther, though they may be black they are not a large cat. But if it's how THEY define themselves it has to count.

They don't literally believe themselves to be felines, though.

No matter what you may believe you do not own the word Judaism. It is not trademarked so, in fact, anyone else may use it in any way they please.

I do not claim to own the world. I am simply objecting to their use of it. It's a free country, thank God, and I'm allowed to do that.

Though that may be a legal issue, on a more basic level, if they define Judaism as worshipping YHWH and following His precepts and statutes, that they recognize Messiah takes nothing away from that.

As I've stated repeatedly, fringe groups do not get to define an entire movement. All of Judaism, from the most religious to the most secular, deny the idea of a man as god. Now these few come along and decide it's actually possible? And that somehow makes it a Jewish concept?

When did I say the status of the crusaders was unknown? God certainly knows whether they served Him or not.

I didn't ask whether they served God or not. I asked whether they were Christians or not. Because that's how they identified themselves. And I've heard from many Christians that they were not "real Christians" because of how they behaved. Fair enough. So their self-identification was less important than their actions. And I agree, and it applies to "messianic Jews" as well.

Yet, the Sadduccees not only called themselves Jews but in their time those around them also recognized them as Jews.

That didn't make them Jewish though.

Yet, would you be offended somehow if a non-observant (atheist/agnostic) Jew called themselves Jewish? I've never seen that outrage amongst Jews that I know.

No, I would not. Because they believe in nothing- but they don't believe in something that is opposed to Jewish thinking.

Words certainly have meaning and I have attempted to explain what meaning those words (Messianic Judaism) mean to those who adhere to it.

I understand what they think it means.

What's interesting is that (as per my understanding) very few "messianic Jews" are actually Jewish. For example, a messianic temple in Seattle said that only about 2% of their congregants were Jewish according to Jewish law.

***Studyin'2Show*** · Sep 9th 2009, 09:24 PM

Let me get this straight. Believing there is no God is not opposed to Jewish thinking but believing in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IS?

Sorry, I don't see the logic in that.

Oh, and BTW, I do not believe that a mere man can be a god, what I DO believe is that God can be ANYTHING He wants INCLUDING choosing to come as a man. You know, Immanuel, God with us.

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Believe it or not they are VERY different things.

And yes, you have every right to not like Jews who accept Messiah using the term 'Judaism', just as they have every right to use it anyway. Ain't America GRAND!

I can't speak for 'most Christians' just as I can't speak for the crusaders.

I can only speak for myself which is what I do, share my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions!

God Bless!
Denise

**Fenris** · Sep 9th 2009, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show

Let me get this straight. Believing there is no God is not opposed to Jewish thinking but believing in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IS?

Sorry, I don't see the logic in that.

Someone who doesn't believe, believes in nothing. Someone who believes in god as man believes something that opposes Jewish thought.

Oh, and BTW, I do not believe that a mere man can be a god, what I DO believe is that God can be ANYTHING He wants INCLUDING choosing to come as a man.

OK, that's fine. Jews don't believe that though. Obviously.

***Studyin'2Show*** · Sep 9th 2009, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fenris

Someone who doesn't believe, believes in nothing. Someone who believes in god as man believes something that opposes Jewish thought.

OK, that's fine. Jews don't believe that though. Obviously.

Actually, only the agnostic believes in nothing. The atheist BELIEVES there is no God. That is believing in something which I would hope is against what you define as Judaism. I know I would not want an atheists who may have been born to a Christian family saying they are Christian and yet denying God. However, as you say it is certainly their right to do so. It's just something I find curious that, to you (and other Jews), it is somehow better to deny God than choose to serve and bring glory to Him believing He has indeed fulfilled His promise of Immanuel.