Submit to governing authorities...

**In Dust and Ashes** · Aug 31st 2009, 11:06 PM

I like this passage in Romans 13 because it reminds me that God is so much bigger than anyone that rules on this earth and that He is ultimately in control of it all, but it seems there's an exception that people make whenever they read this. They say, "except, when obeying the authority means disobeying God." But God just said to obey the authority because he placed them there... So a paradox just opened up.

It's also a pretty hot topic when you read that passage and then say the word "Nazi" or any other government that committed atrocities (oh, wait, that's all of them...).

So how do we deal with the tendency to make exceptions to this rule and the paradox of making exceptions to this rule?

**Slug1** · Aug 31st 2009, 11:31 PM

These are the key scriptures to what you're saying:

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

Now, in v3 you see that God says that the rulers are not a terror to good works. Also, to do what is good. In v4 they are to be used to execute wrath on those who practice evil. In v5 are the words, "for conscience sake".

Now, a government has a choice to be obedient to the blessing God has given them or not. Hitler was not and the Lord spun up nations that were. Had to beat a few nations about on the head to get them to be obedient (like the US - Pearl Harbor) but once all those were online... the Lord sent them in to "execute wrath on him who practices evil"

If Hilter honored his blessing, history would be much different.

**notuptome** · Aug 31st 2009, 11:58 PM

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and render unto God the things that are Gods. Luke 20:25

We are to honor God and leave the government to answer for what it does to Him that setteth up and pulleth down Kings and kingdoms.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

***timmyb*** · Sep 1st 2009, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by Slug1

These are the key scriptures to what you're saying:

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

Now, in v3 you see that God says that the rulers are not a terror to good works. Also, to do what is good. In v4 they are to be used to execute wrath on those who practice evil. In v5 are the words, "for conscience sake".

Now, a government has a choice to be obedient to the blessing God has given them or not. Hitler was not and the Lord spun up nations that were. Had to beat a few nations about on the head to get them to be obedient (like the US - Pearl Harbor) but once all those were online... the Lord sent them in to "execute wrath on him who practices evil"

If Hilter honored his blessing, history would be much different.

Do not forget that God will raise up a man indwelt with the spirit of Satan himself to rule the world for a while, he will persecute the church and make life for Israel miserable (depending on which eschatological view you hold)... Antichrist has yet to be raised up...

**Slug1** · Sep 1st 2009, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by timmyb

Do not forget that God will raise up a man indwelt with the spirit of Satan himself to rule the world for a while, he will persecute the church and make life for Israel miserable (depending on which eschatological view you hold)... Antichrist has yet to be raised up...

Yep, in the meantime God will continue to beat down nations with an attitude problem...

When all the attitude problem nations join up with all the other nations in the world and it's under a single person... then the Lord has His timer "really" clicking down!!

***timmyb*** · Sep 1st 2009, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Slug1

Yep, in the meantime God will continue to beat down nations with an attitude problem...

When all the attitude problem nations join up with all the other nations in the world and it's under a single person... then the Lord has His timer "really" clicking down!!

Psalm 2... Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot a vain thing?

Let's just say when those attitude nations gather against Jerusalem... it will be "Game On" for God... as he lays the celestial smackdown on the ones who declare war on him and his people...

and yes I will say this from the pulpit one day

***Sold Out*** · Sep 1st 2009, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by In Dust and Ashes

So how do we deal with the tendency to make exceptions to this rule and the paradox of making exceptions to this rule?

Well Daniel refused to worship the image of Nebuchadnezzar and was thrown into prison.

**Slug1** · Sep 1st 2009, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sold Out

Well Daniel refused to worship the image of Nebuchadnezzar and was thrown into prison.

Don't forget that, that "law" was nothing more then a plot for Daniel to be "taken" out of his position within the government. It backfired on those who planned against Daniel. Just like the "plan" backfire against Hitler who took advantage of a position in government and used it for his gain. Same with those satraps... took advantage of the blessing of their position.

***Steve M*** · Sep 1st 2009, 03:03 PM

"And they said, why are you out here preaching in the name of Jesus, which we have strictly forbidden? But Peter and John replied, we must obey God rather than man."

***RabbiKnife*** · Sep 1st 2009, 03:08 PM

And don't forget

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

***moonglow*** · Sep 1st 2009, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by In Dust and Ashes

I like this passage in Romans 13 because it reminds me that God is so much bigger than anyone that rules on this earth and that He is ultimately in control of it all, but it seems there's an exception that people make whenever they read this. They say, "except, when obeying the authority means disobeying God." But God just said to obey the authority because he placed them there... So a paradox just opened up.

It's also a pretty hot topic when you read that passage and then say the word "Nazi" or any other government that committed atrocities (oh, wait, that's all of them...).

So how do we deal with the tendency to make exceptions to this rule and the paradox of making exceptions to this rule?

Obviously there have been times when a government or leaders demands believers sin against God as several examples were given already...and those believers refused to sin against God. I think the bigger and more urgent concern though is what I see happening is Christians totally ignoring this passage when they don't like their government leaders or 'think' they are in the wrong, even though those leaders have not required them to sin against God. They still refuse to submit to the government. Right now people are up in arms over the health care reform that might happen and some have gone so far to spread lies and myths about it all over the internet..this is a sin to do such a thing. And they do that simply because they don't like the President or don't like this plan...and if they aren't careful this verse will happen to them: 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

Over the years Christians have been fighting against the government more and more and more...totally and completely ignoring this passage..certain ones are constantly up in arms over whatever the government is currently doing and fighting against it...not saying as Christians we can't object and exercise our rights as citizens in this nation, but too many are crossing the line here I think. They seem to think its our job to make sure the government does good things...stays line with God...but the bible never instructs us to do such a thing..it simply says WE should submit to the government as God is in control of it. People seem act like God isn't in control and its somehow only up to us to make sure our government behaves...

So we strive against it..fight against it as if this verse isn't there: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

I think Christians really need to start actually doing what the bible says in regards to this passage. I dread what will happen if they keep rebelling against it.

God bless

Partaker of Christ · Sep 2nd 2009, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by moonglow

Obviously there have been times when a government or leaders demands believers sin against God as several examples were given already...and those believers refused to sin against God. I think the bigger and more urgent concern though is what I see happening is Christians totally ignoring this passage when they don't like their government leaders or 'think' they are in the wrong, even though those leaders have not required them to sin against God. They still refuse to submit to the government. Right now people are up in arms over the health care reform that might happen and some have gone so far to spread lies and myths about it all over the internet..this is a sin to do such a thing. And they do that simply because they don't like the President or don't like this plan...and if they aren't careful this verse will happen to them: 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

Over the years Christians have been fighting against the government more and more and more...totally and completely ignoring this passage..certain ones are constantly up in arms over whatever the government is currently doing and fighting against it...not saying as Christians we can't object and exercise our rights as citizens in this nation, but too many are crossing the line here I think. They seem to think its our job to make sure the government does good things...stays line with God...but the bible never instructs us to do such a thing..it simply says WE should submit to the government as God is in control of it. People seem act like God isn't in control and its somehow only up to us to make sure our government behaves...

So we strive against it..fight against it as if this verse isn't there: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

I think Christians really need to start actually doing what the bible says in regards to this passage. I dread what will happen if they keep rebelling against it.

God bless

I agree with all that, but I think our only objections should be were it tries to prevent our obeying God.

***moonglow*** · Sep 2nd 2009, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ

I agree with all that, but I think our only objections should be were it tries to prevent our obeying God.

Yes and too many times we bring restrictions on ourselves by doing insane things, such as blowing up abortion clinic's...shooting those doctors..praying for the death of the President...

Get in the faces of those in gay parades causing ourselves to be arrested and basically just trying to force others to live as 'we' see fit...then wonder why people think we are hateful and threatening...

I realize only a small percentages of Christians go to these extremes but of course when one does that is all that is in the media...

And if it happens enough, then laws are written that do restrict our rights to spread or share the gospels because we aren't doing it as we were instructed too in the first place in the bible! Jesus said if a place does not want to hear the message we are to shake the dust from our feet...but we don't do that...instead we try to force it on them anyway...that is what gets us into trouble and isn't submitting to the laws of the land very well either. Preachers do sometimes preach hate and sometimes those listening act on it. And it backfires on the rest of us with more restriction...

maybe one day more Christians will realize God is in control and not us trying to control our government...the laws..or the people.

God bless

**Denny606** · Sep 3rd 2009, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by moonglow

Yes and too many times we bring restrictions on ourselves by doing insane things, such as blowing up abortion clinic's...shooting those doctors..praying for the death of the President...

Get in the faces of those in gay parades causing ourselves to be arrested and basically just trying to force others to live as 'we' see fit...then wonder why people think we are hateful and threatening...

I realize only a small percentages of Christians go to these extremes but of course when one does that is all that is in the media...

And if it happens enough, then laws are written that do restrict our rights to spread or share the gospels because we aren't doing it as we were instructed too in the first place in the bible! Jesus said if a place does not want to hear the message we are to shake the dust from our feet...but we don't do that...instead we try to force it on them anyway...that is what gets us into trouble and isn't submitting to the laws of the land very well either. Preachers do sometimes preach hate and sometimes those listening act on it. And it backfires on the rest of us with more restriction...

maybe one day more Christians will realize God is in control and not us trying to control our government...the laws..or the people.

God bless

well said it only takes a few people with extremist views to get the rest of us lumped in with them ,what part of thought shalt not kill do these peole blowing up things and killing people understand.Vengeance is mine saith the Lord,Him that has an ear let him hear.You are correct on shaking the dust of your feet.again well said.

***DaveS*** · Sep 3rd 2009, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by moonglow

Obviously there have been times when a government or leaders demands believers sin against God as several examples were given already...and those believers refused to sin against God. I think the bigger and more urgent concern though is what I see happening is Christians totally ignoring this passage when they don't like their government leaders or 'think' they are in the wrong, even though those leaders have not required them to sin against God. They still refuse to submit to the government. Right now people are up in arms over the health care reform that might happen and some have gone so far to spread lies and myths about it all over the internet..this is a sin to do such a thing. And they do that simply because they don't like the President or don't like this plan...and if they aren't careful this verse will happen to them: 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

Over the years Christians have been fighting against the government more and more and more...totally and completely ignoring this passage..certain ones are constantly up in arms over whatever the government is currently doing and fighting against it...not saying as Christians we can't object and exercise our rights as citizens in this nation, but too many are crossing the line here I think. They seem to think its our job to make sure the government does good things...stays line with God...but the bible never instructs us to do such a thing..it simply says WE should submit to the government as God is in control of it. People seem act like God isn't in control and its somehow only up to us to make sure our government behaves...

So we strive against it..fight against it as if this verse isn't there: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

I think Christians really need to start actually doing what the bible says in regards to this passage. I dread what will happen if they keep rebelling against it.

God bless

You're singing my song, Sis. No need for a chorus from me. Thanks!