There is no sin?

[butterfly/ghost]

Good day everybody.

My name is Anne, I'm on the wrong side of sixty. I've been seeking some sort of understanding all my life, and it keeps eluding me. Through a Christian friend of mine, I found this site, and have browsed for quite a while.

Recently I saw a thread in this section, which really struck me, because the non Christian who voiced the opinion was saying something which I personally have believed for over fifty years... that is, since as long as I've been able to formulate philosophical thoughts.

However... seeing it here, something struck me wrong, and I've been in a bit of a state ever since. Perhaps I've been horribly wrong.

The position taken by the non Christian was this... that sin isn't really "sin", it's simply a misunderstanding... sin is what happens when we don't understand, or when we put ourselves in a certain position, and that sin doesn't really matter anyway, because God is perfect, and therefore he can't have created imperfection.

For years this has made perfect sense to me.

The problem I'm having now is this.

The non Christian said that when something happens, and it's considered sin, and we seek for justice, it is because the victim put themselves in a position where something happened.

How can this be the case when the victim, for example, is a child, and the aggressor has been stalking them on the way to school for weeks?

This one comment from the non Christian has really shook me, and made me feel quite sick, not because this ever happened to me, but because it did happen to people I cared about.

I know for a fact that if a little girl is raped, it's not her fault.

Please understand me, I'm not saying that I'm converted or anything... but what I am saying is that I'm really shocked that this is the attitude of at least one non Christian posting on this board. May I ask, what is the Christian perspective on this?

My mother was sexually abused in a religious context when she was a little girl, and she was always told it was because she was a sinner. For years I thought it was the church who said things like this, it came as a real shock to read it from someone who I thought had the same moral outlook as me. (The thread I'm referring to is locked, I don't know if I'm able to talk to the man who started it, in case I misunderstood him, but I wish you hadn't locked it, because I'd have liked to see how people addressed this comment of his.)

[Vhayes]

My mother was sexually abused in a religious context when she was a little girl, and she was always told it was because she was a sinner. For years I thought it was the church who said things like this, it came as a real shock to read it from someone who I thought had the same moral outlook as me. (The thread I'm referring to is locked, I don't know if I'm able to talk to the man who started it, in case I misunderstood him, but I wish you hadn't locked it, because I'd have liked to see how people addressed this comment of his.)

Good day to you, Anne,

I have no idea who told your mother she was assualted because she was a sinner but they were/are wrong in more ways than I can list.

The person who abused her IS a sinner. Period. She was a victim.

I don't remember the thread you are speaking of but maybe a moderator can locate it for you and a new thread can be started to address your concerns.

By the way, I'm pleased to meet you!
V

[butterfly/ghost]

It is nice to meet you too. My friend who is a Christian knows you and I've read some of your posts before. I've not always understood them, but I've always been interested, and you seem like a very nice person.

The people who told my mother than she was a sinner were teachers and nuns, and family members. She was very little when it first happened. When she was a teenager something else happened to her (resulting in me) and she never told anybody. She left the contry and didn't speak to most people from her family until the last five years of her life. She seemed fairly happy and at peace when she died. She told me not to blame Christians but I couldn't help it. Espcially when I met my ucles and autns, I could see why she'd left the country. They all looked down on me as though it was my fault what happened, and yet if she'd got an abortion they'd have hated her even more.

My mum was beautiful by the way. She never married, and I was her only child.

[moonglow]

Hi and welcome to the board!

I am truly sorry your mother was convinced she must have somehow deserved to be abused...how horrible! But sadly not uncommon. This still happens even today when families can't bear the idea they put their child in danger...they blame the child or deny it happened...refuse to listen...usually this is because a relative did the abusing and its someone they love and its all so horrifying they can't face up to it...so they try to excuse it by blaming the child. Sometimes they use religion or the bible in a twisted way to explain the abuse. No child deserves to be abused even if they were a terror...their just is no excuse for abusing a child....ever. I can see why that would turn you away from our faith... Your poor mother probably carried that guilt her whole life..

Yes people willfully sin. I doubt you would think a family killed or terribly hurt in a car accident caused by a drunk driver was their fault for being on the road. How could they possibly know a drunk driver would be out driving too? We certainly don't expect everyone to stay at home all the time out of fear they might be hit by a drunk driver and if they are...its somehow their fault. Even the courts of law blame the drunk driver...not the people they hit. The drunk driver choose to go out drinking knowing full well later they would be driving putting others in danger. While no drunk plans on hitting other people and killing them...they know its a possibility..this kind of thing is sadly on the news far too often. They chose to sin in other words...and sin never happens in a void...it always affects others.

While God is perfect and did originally create perfect people in a perfect world...people chose to sin and in sinning, things are far, far from perfect now. He gave us free will to choose to do good or chose to do evil. So in answer to your question...yes their is sin. We can't watch the news, read the paper without reading about sin.

Glad you are here and I hope we can answer your questions!

[moonglow]

It is nice to meet you too. My friend who is a Christian knows you and I've read some of your posts before. I've not always understood them, but I've always been interested, and you seem like a very nice person.

The people who told my mother than she was a sinner were teachers and nuns, and family members. She was very little when it first happened. When she was a teenager something else happened to her (resulting in me) and she never told anybody. She left the contry and didn't speak to most people from her family until the last five years of her life. She seemed fairly happy and at peace when she died. She told me not to blame Christians but I couldn't help it. Espcially when I met my ucles and autns, I could see why she'd left the country. They all looked down on me as though it was my fault what happened, and yet if she'd got an abortion they'd have hated her even more.

My mum was beautiful by the way. She never married, and I was her only child.

How very sad... These people obviously didn't know the love of Christ or anything about forgiveness...

I was conceived out of wedlock myself and my grandmother was abusive to me because of this m(when I was very young only)...I never blamed God though...but then for much of my life I didn't remember the abuse or realize the connection either until later. My grandmother made my mom move and lift heavy furniture hoping she would miscarry... My dad and mom did marry...back then that was considered the 'right thing to do'..even though mom said she didn't know if she loved dad or not. They had two more children then when I was 11 he died in a car accident. I have gone through alot of depression and turmoil in my life in dealing with all of this but God has been my Rock and got me through. Some people as I said, seem to use religion as a means to hurt and abuse others which is very, very sad indeed. This is the sin in people though, not in the bible and not in God. They take His Words and twist them to their own means...just to hurt others... Rather then seeing the grace, the mercy and the love He meant for us.

I am glad at least you didn't have to be raised around these people..

[Vhayes]

Well - you just made me cry - which is fine! I cry easily and I laugh just as easily.

Your mother sounds as though she was a delighful, loving, forgiving and nurturing person. I'll look forward to meeting her when I finally go home.

There are a couple of things about sexual abuse in children and teens that really, really bothers me as an individual. We seem to treat the victim as "damaged goods" which only solidifies their sense they have done something "wrong". They need to hear over and over and over again by those closest to them that THEY haven't done anything wrong. We, as a society and even as families, seem to fail in this for some reason. The other thing that bothers me (and this isn't near as prevalent as it was years ago) is the way the perpetrator is protected. As I said, this isn't near as common as it used to be and today, I sometimes fear we err on the far side of that and go on witch hunts.

I get the thought from your post that your mother was Roman Catholic. In regards to your family, my thoughts (and my thoughts only) are this; Catholics are raised to believe intimacy between a man and a woman is for the sole purpose of procreation. I personally believe God gave us our bodies and the way they fit together for many reasons, only one of which is to procreate. When a person is raised up with the idea that one should only be intimate with the sole purpose of having children, the act itself becomes tainted and "dirty" because it is such an enjoyable act.

I don't know if what I've said makes any sense to you at all. I just want you to know, your mother did not sin when she was abused. It was the abuser who sinned. I'm sure she sinned in other ways in her lifetime because we all do - we are human - but in this instance, I do not believe anyone would or should say she sinned.

I hope that gives you a bit of peace. Please hang around for a while and get to know us a bit better. Ask questions as they occur to you and maybe get to see a side to Christianity and Christians you've never seen before.

V

[butterfly/ghost]

Hi and welcome to the board!

I am truly sorry your mother was convinced she must have somehow deserved to be abused...how horrible! But sadly not uncommon. This still happens even today when families can't bear the idea they put their child in danger...they blame the child or deny it happened...refuse to listen...usually this is because a relative did the abusing and its someone they love and its all so horrifying they can't face up to it...so they try to excuse it by blaming the child. Sometimes they use religion or the bible in a twisted way to explain the abuse. No child deserves to be abused even if they were a terror...their just is no excuse for abusing a child....ever. I can see why that would turn you away from our faith... Your poor mother probably carried that guilt her whole life..

Yes people willfully sin. I doubt you would think a family killed or terribly hurt in a car accident caused by a drunk driver was their fault for being on the road. How could they possibly know a drunk driver would be out driving too? We certainly don't expect everyone to stay at home all the time out of fear they might be hit by a drunk driver and if they are...its somehow their fault. Even the courts of law blame the drunk driver...not the people they hit. The drunk driver choose to go out drinking knowing full well later they would be driving putting others in danger. While no drunk plans on hitting other people and killing them...they know its a possibility..this kind of thing is sadly on the news far too often. They chose to sin in other words...and sin never happens in a void...it always affects others.

While God is perfect and did originally create perfect people in a perfect world...people chose to sin and in sinning, things are far, far from perfect now. He gave us free will to choose to do good or chose to do evil. So in answer to your question...yes their is sin. We can't watch the news, read the paper without reading about sin.

Glad you are here and I hope we can answer your questions!

Thank you for your lovely friendly answer.
I wish I'd had the courage to speak to Christians before now, I always thougth they'd be just like my mother's family. But you know what's the lovely thing, my Mother when she died didn't carry anythin with her. I know her family thought she should carry the guilt with her for her whole life, and I think most of her life she thought she should carry the guilt for her whole life too. But when she died she didn't have any of that weighting down on her at all, she just seemed so peaceful and happy. She had a sister from Ireland come over and say that it was her fault her mother died (I say her mother, but I won't say my grandmother) Her sister said it was my mother's fault that her own mother died so sad and al alone. I ended up screaming at teh sister (my aunt) and telling her to get out of my mother's room, she was dying, and the last thing she needed was some harpy who never loved her when she was alive coming and gloating when she was dying.

And my mother when I came back just held my hand and smiled and asked me to pray for my aunt.

She said she wished she hadn't been so confused and messed up and sad when she was younger, she wished she'd known what she knowed now.

And when I asked her what that was she just smiled and said, "everythings going to be allright, God loves you."

I would have said I didn't give a damn about god, but you know, she was dying. And hten she just smiled, and told me she loved me.

She did live another three weeks, but we never talked about god again. The very last thing she did was smile. I didn't know she was going to die. I thought she'd just woken up. She turned her head and looked at me, and smiled, and I thought she was getting better or brighter or something. Then alll the instruments started making noises and she was gone.

So I suppose I'm writing because I've known a few Christians who seem to have what my mother had, and they're truly happy. And they don't seem like what non Chrisitans say about Chrisitans. They don't seem like my aunt or those people.

When I say a few Christians, I mean only a few. I've steered clear of you guys like the plague.

But still, I'm sixty seven, and I've seen a lot of people die.

There's only one person I saw die with a smile beside my mother, and that was a Christian woman I was doin care work for. It just hit me... maybe my Mum was a Christian after all. She was never religious, but she cry when I told her I didn't believe in Jesus., I think that was the only time I ever saw her cry.

[Vhayes]

maybe my Mum was a Christian after all. She was never religious

Oh my dear - God's children are the most "unreligious" people you will ever, ever meet.

Please hang around. I'd so love to get to know you.
V

[butterfly/ghost]

Well - you just made me cry - which is fine! I cry easily and I laugh just as easily.

Your mother sounds as though she was a delighful, loving, forgiving and nurturing person. I'll look forward to meeting her when I finally go home.

There are a couple of things about sexual abuse in children and teens that really, really bothers me as an individual. We seem to treat the victim as "damaged goods" which only solidifies their sense they have done something "wrong". They need to hear over and over and over again by those closest to them that THEY haven't done anything wrong. We, as a society and even as families, seem to fail in this for some reason. The other thing that bothers me (and this isn't near as prevalent as it was years ago) is the way the perpetrator is protected. As I said, this isn't near as common as it used to be and today, I sometimes fear we err on the far side of that and go on witch hunts.

I get the thought from your post that your mother was Roman Catholic. In regards to your family, my thoughts (and my thoughts only) are this; Catholics are raised to believe intimacy between a man and a woman is for the sole purpose of procreation. I personally believe God gave us our bodies and the way they fit together for many reasons, only one of which is to procreate. When a person is raised up with the idea that one should only be intimate with the sole purpose of having children, the act itself becomes tainted and "dirty" because it is such an enjoyable act.

I don't know if what I've said makes any sense to you at all. I just want you to know, your mother did not sin when she was abused. It was the abuser who sinned. I'm sure she sinned in other ways in her lifetime because we all do - we are human - but in this instance, I do not believe anyone would or should say she sinned.

I hope that gives you a bit of peace. Please hang around for a while and get to know us a bit better. Ask questions as they occur to you and maybe get to see a side to Christianity and Christians you've never seen before.

V

Thank you V.

Yes, my mother was raised Roman Catholic. After I was born, she never went back to a Catholic mass, but she did tell me that she went to confession to a Catholic priest, and told him what had happened. She said that he told her that in God's eyes she was as pure a virgin as the day she was born, and that the man who did it to her, who was in a position of authority and should hav known better was going to reap all the condemnation for what he'd done to her. He did also tel her that she could go back to mass and take communion, but she never dared do it. It was years before she told me what had happened (in fact, I heard it from her sister, who said it was her fault... she was fourteen at the time. I only just saw her birth certificate, I'd always thought she was older than that.)

But when she got sick she was in hospital a lot, and there was this nurse who used to sing hymns round the place. Not because she was being pushy or trying to say anything but just because she was singing and those were the songs she liked. And my mum started singing those songs too, and it annoyed me, till I tried to have arow with the nurse.

She was a Jamaican lady, and when I told her why I was angry she was singing hymns round my Mum she started crying, saying she was so sorry what my Mum had gone through. I'd never seen anyone cry about it before. Then this nurse told me that everything works out for good to those that love him. Apparently that's in the Bible. She told me that I was the good that God gave my Mum... that she knew my Mum loved God, and she knew God loved my Mum, and that my Mum was a Christian whatever her family said.

And that was the nurse who was in the room with me when my Mum died a few months later. I just think this isn't what I thought would ever happen.

[daughter]

Hello ANNE! I'm glad you finally posted here. I'm sure you will find that people are very kind to you here, and interested in hearing from you and answering your questions.

[Vhayes]

Anne, the verse you are thinking of is this:
Romans 8
28 - And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

God can take the most horrible of circumstances and use them for the ultimate good of His child. He's done that in my life many times, taken circumstances that are beyond abysmal and used them to show me His love and to demonstrate to others His mercy and grace, His power and might.

It sounds as though that nurse was placed in that part of the hospital at just the right time. Your mother needed to hear those songs, you needed to see her peace.

Being a Christian isn't about church attendance, it isn't about following a set of rules and regs, it isn't even about being a "good person" and having good works - it's ALL about Jesus and what we do with Him. Do we believe Him to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world or do we consign Him to being a good man, a prophet or a nutbag. Do we make Him Lord of our lives or do we tell Him we can do it better than He? Do we trust Him like a child, place our hand and our heart in His care and leadership or do we continue walking in our own knowledge.

This is the good news of the gospel:
John 3
16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 - "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 - "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[AvgJoe]

Hello Anne. Welcome to the forum! We hope you'll hang around for awhile.

May I ask, what is the Christian perspective on this?

From a Christian perspective, no matter what crime or sin, it is never the victim's fault for what has happened, it is always the lawbreaker's, the one who commits the crime/sin, who is at fault. Anyone, Christian or not, who says otherwise is perverting the truth.


What is sin?

People often, mistakenly, associate sin with religion and God’s wrath and denying yourself some pleasure. But sin, put simply, is anything you do that hurts yourself, others, or God. In other words, to commit sin is to make a mistake.

In the Bible, the word ‘sin’ comes from the same root word in Hebrew that is used to express the verb ‘to miss the target’. That target is keeping God's law, perfectly. When we lie, we miss the target, we sin. When we covet other people's possessions, we miss the target, we sin. When we fail to love others as we love ourselves, we miss the target, we sin. Romans 3:23 says that “…all fall short of God’s glorious standard (target).” Everyone sins.

When we miss the target, we sin. When we sin, we offend God. This offense against God results in a judgment. Laws are laws because they have penalties. There is no law without a penalty. Therefore, breaking God's law brings judgment, which is separation from God. "But your sins have made a separation between you and your God,"(Isaiah 59:2). And, "the wages of sin is death..." (Rom. 6:23). So, to sin, to break God's law, results in judgment, an eternal judgement which is separation from God.

I'm here to tell you that it doesn't have to end there. Jesus came to take our place and die for our sins (1 Pet. 2:24). This means that Jesus bore our sin in His body on the cross and paid for them, every last one of them. He took the judgment upon himself. This further means that anyone who trusts in what Jesus did on the cross will have his sins removed; he will be saved from God's future judgment. Jesus is the bridge, over the chasm of separation that our sin has caused, between us and God.

So, replying to the question "What is sin?" is best answered by saying that it is breaking God's law. All people have sinned. Therefore, all people are under God's judgment -- except for those who've trusted in God's provision to escape that judgment.

[moonglow]

Thank you for your lovely friendly answer.
I wish I'd had the courage to speak to Christians before now, I always thougth they'd be just like my mother's family. But you know what's the lovely thing, my Mother when she died didn't carry anythin with her. I know her family thought she should carry the guilt with her for her whole life, and I think most of her life she thought she should carry the guilt for her whole life too. But when she died she didn't have any of that weighting down on her at all, she just seemed so peaceful and happy. She had a sister from Ireland come over and say that it was her fault her mother died (I say her mother, but I won't say my grandmother) Her sister said it was my mother's fault that her own mother died so sad and al alone. I ended up screaming at teh sister (my aunt) and telling her to get out of my mother's room, she was dying, and the last thing she needed was some harpy who never loved her when she was alive coming and gloating when she was dying.

And my mother when I came back just held my hand and smiled and asked me to pray for my aunt.

She said she wished she hadn't been so confused and messed up and sad when she was younger, she wished she'd known what she knowed now.

And when I asked her what that was she just smiled and said, "everythings going to be allright, God loves you."

I would have said I didn't give a damn about god, but you know, she was dying. And hten she just smiled, and told me she loved me.

She did live another three weeks, but we never talked about god again. The very last thing she did was smile. I didn't know she was going to die. I thought she'd just woken up. She turned her head and looked at me, and smiled, and I thought she was getting better or brighter or something. Then alll the instruments started making noises and she was gone.

So I suppose I'm writing because I've known a few Christians who seem to have what my mother had, and they're truly happy. And they don't seem like what non Chrisitans say about Chrisitans. They don't seem like my aunt or those people.

When I say a few Christians, I mean only a few. I've steered clear of you guys like the plague.

But still, I'm sixty seven, and I've seen a lot of people die.

There's only one person I saw die with a smile beside my mother, and that was a Christian woman I was doin care work for. It just hit me... maybe my Mum was a Christian after all. She was never religious, but she cry when I told her I didn't believe in Jesus., I think that was the only time I ever saw her cry.

It does sound like your mom believed in Jesus and wanted you too and wanted you to know that peace. I am sure she also understood though why you turned away from God...that is sad. You and I both have ever reason to reject God considering what happened to us...I could have blamed Him for what my grandma did to me....but why would I? I mean He didn't do it...she did.

Now there are people who claim to be Christians that seem to only know how to blame and hate of which you have meant many...they make me want to avoid Christians too! But I know the bible well enough now to know this isn't how its suppose to be...nor what God wants either. Neither of us can follow imperfect human beings to find Him...we have to find Him on our own...which I did and I pray one day you will too.

Post and read when you feel up too it.

[th1bill]

... Hello Anne and welcome! It drives me insane when religious people call themselves Christian. The truth about Christianity is that there are two, completely, separate forms of it. A quick read of the Gospel of John will teach you that Jesus, God in the flesh of a man, rejected all the religious people in favor of those few that sought His friendship and were willing to obey Him. In that last sentence you find both classes of Christians today. There are a few, like most of the members of this forum, that have a personal relationship with God and then there are the other, estimated, 97% that are attending services because they have found their favorite flavor of religion.
... The followers of Jesus do their very best to remember the woman caught in the act of adultery and we try our best to conduct ourselves just as Jesus did in her case. Jesus/God did no condemn her but rather sent her on her way with the command not to do it any more. (This incident is found in the Gospel of John.) You see, God is the God of new beginnings ad it is His perfect will that none should perish but that all should repent and come to eternal salvation.
... I was raised an atheist and did not convert until my forty-fifth birthday. I am now on the same side of sixty as yourself and I was guilty of just about every sin in the catalog and God loved me anyway. I can also promise you that He loved and forgave your mother of any sin she did commit and I'm just as certain that the cad that raped her was and is the only one guilty of the sins in that matter.
... I pray that you will find that peace that your mom knew at the end. If you'll just hang around here we'll do our best to help you introduce yourself to Jesus and then we'll know that you have found what you seek after. From the sound of it I would guess that your mom is in Heaven praying for you and nothing would give me and the others here more pleasure than to know you will spend eternity with her... in Heaven.

[tango]

Hi Anne, welcome to the forum!

There are all sorts of misunderstandings about sin.

Some people like to think "well I'm not so bad", they might have fiddled their expense claims but figure that's trivial against rapists and killers.

Other people decide that they prefer relative morality where they do what they think is right. But what they think is right often turns out to be what favours them, and too bad for the other guy. All dressed up in fine-sounding words, of course.

Still others decide that they can do what they want because there won't be any consequences. Perhaps they believe there is nothing after death, perhaps they believe in reincarnation and getting as many chances as it takes to "get it right".

Then there are the overly religious who are very fond of pointing out that YOU are a sinner and they, naturally are holy.

The Bible is very clear. Romans 3:23 tells us we have all sinned and fallen short of God's standard. So the person who fiddled their expenses has fallen short, as has the rapist and the killer. Hebrews 9:27 tells us we die once and then are judged. Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death.

So it's clear that none of us is holy enough to make it into heaven on our own, and that sin leads to death. Which all sounds pretty bleak on the face of it. But then we see the good news, and it all gets better.

John 3:16 tells us that God loved the world enough to send Jesus, so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 John 1:8-9 tells us that we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin, but that if we confess our sins God will forgive us and cleanse us. And Romans 8:1 says that now there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus.


So we can see that we have all sinned, we have all fallen short of God's standard, and we have all effectively failed the test that gets us into heaven. But God doesn't want us to perish, and sent Jesus to die for us. Because Jesus died we don't have to die, Jesus opened the way to heaven for us all.