Pre-trib'ers..what to do with 2 Thes 2?

[penofareadywriter]

2 Thes 2
"1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him(The Rapture), we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for THAT DAY will not come UNLESS the falling away COMES FIRST, AND the man of sin[b] is revealed"


Every pre-trib view of this chapter that I have read is, quite frankly, embarrassing. Their exegesis is a catch 22. You either have to say that the Greek word "apostasia", (which Strong's translates as "a falling away, defection, apostasy") is really the greek word Paul used in 2 Cor 12:8 "afisthmi // aphistemi" which Strong's translates as "depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1,
depart from:".
AND even IF you CHANGE the words around and make "apostasia" mea the rapture, you still have a HUGE context problem. Let me paraphrase this interpretation " Concerning the coming of Jesus AND us meeting Him in the air or the rapture, don't let anyone deceive you, Jesus will not come back and the rapture will not take place UNTIL two things happen. The first thing that must happen before Jesus's return and the rapture is.....the rapture.... and the anti-christ is revealed." Ya..I don't get it either.
Thoughts?

[notuptome]

2 Thes 2
"1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him(The Rapture), we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for THAT DAY will not come UNLESS the falling away COMES FIRST, AND the man of sin is revealed"


Every pre-trib view of this chapter that I have read is, quite frankly, embarrassing. Their exegesis is a catch 22. You either have to say that the Greek word "apostasia", (which Strong's translates as "a falling away, defection, apostasy") is really the greek word Paul used in 2 Cor 12:8 "afisthmi // aphistemi" which Strong's translates as "depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1,
depart from:".
[b]AND even IF you CHANGE the words around and make "apostasia" mea the rapture, you still have a HUGE context problem. Let me paraphrase this interpretation " Concerning the coming of Jesus AND us meeting Him in the air or the rapture, don't let anyone deceive you, Jesus will not come back and the rapture will not take place UNTIL two things happen. The first thing that must happen before Jesus's return and the rapture is.....the rapture.... and the anti-christ is revealed." Ya..I don't get it either.
Thoughts?

This has nothing to do with the rapture. Catching away and falling away are not the same thing. Rapture and apostacy two entirely different things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[penofareadywriter]

Ok....are there ANY pre-trb'ers on this site? Or is my argument just THAT good?

[tfcrew]

Ok....are there ANY pre-trb'ers on this site? .....

Yeah, there are, but why argue about it?

[penofareadywriter]

Yeah, there are, but why argue about it?

Very cute....

[David Taylor]

Yeah, there are, but why argue about it?

I'm not a Pretribber, but if I had to guess as why you haven't had too many hits from Pretribbers, is because your opening salutation, "Every pre-trib view of this chapter that I have read is, quite frankly, embarrassing", comes across a bit harsh towards them.

My guess they don't want to bother, because of the manner in which you started the discussion. (kinda putting them in a corner to begin with)

Just my observation....maybe some of our resident Pretribbers will still drop by and share their thoughts.

[Raybob]

This has nothing to do with the rapture. Catching away and falling away are not the same thing. Rapture and apostacy two entirely different things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No but the "our gathering unto Him" of the first verse IS the rapture. The passage says the rapture can't happen until man of sin is revealed.

Raybob

[mfowler12]

2 Thes 2
"1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him(The Rapture), we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for THAT DAY will not come UNLESS the falling away COMES FIRST, AND the man of sin[b] is revealed"


Every pre-trib view of this chapter that I have read is, quite frankly, embarrassing. Their exegesis is a catch 22. You either have to say that the Greek word "apostasia", (which Strong's translates as "a falling away, defection, apostasy") is really the greek word Paul used in 2 Cor 12:8 "afisthmi // aphistemi" which Strong's translates as "depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1,
depart from:".
AND even IF you CHANGE the words around and make "apostasia" mea the rapture, you still have a HUGE context problem. Let me paraphrase this interpretation " Concerning the coming of Jesus AND us meeting Him in the air or the rapture, don't let anyone deceive you, Jesus will not come back and the rapture will not take place UNTIL two things happen. The first thing that must happen before Jesus's return and the rapture is.....the rapture.... and the anti-christ is revealed." Ya..I don't get it either.
Thoughts?

You attacking a position is not what the Body of Christ is suppose to do. In fact, I see a lot of this in a lot of the threads on this board. Are we not suppose to carry our brother's burdens? How can you carry my burden if you are calling me out on a viewpoint that I hold in prophecy? Last I checked, prophecy is what God knows is going to happen and our opinions of what might happen.

Does it matter who is right or who is wrong? Just in case anybody is keeping score, God is winning because He knows everything that is going to happen. How can we possibly know what's going to happen and when?

Also, just to throw this out there. If Jesus says that He will come in the night as a thief, then I expect Him to come at any moment without my knowing beforehand. If we are experiencing the Tribulation, then we know He is coming. If we know when the 7 years is up, we know when He is coming. The only two views that I think hold up to the end times is that everything is ready for Jesus' return (no remaining prophecy) or there is a rapture of the Church. Both of those fit with Jesus' comment about nobody knowing when He is coming in the "night."

[tfcrew]

..your opening salutation, "Every pre-trib view of this chapter that I have read is, quite frankly, embarrassing", comes across a bit harsh towards them.

Not so much 'harsh' but to whom is shame or humiliation [synonyms of embarrass] a key witness?
Non-believers?
Really?
For to them, all forums of this [religious] nature is insulting.
See what I mean?

[Veretax]

2 Thes 2
"1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him(The Rapture), we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for THAT DAY will not come UNLESS the falling away COMES FIRST, AND the man of sin is revealed"


Every pre-trib view of this chapter that I have read is, quite frankly, embarrassing. Their exegesis is a catch 22. You either have to say that the Greek word "apostasia", (which Strong's translates as "a falling away, defection, apostasy") is really the greek word Paul used in 2 Cor 12:8 "afisthmi // aphistemi" which Strong's translates as "depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1,
depart from:".
[b]AND even IF you CHANGE the words around and make "apostasia" mea the rapture, you still have a HUGE context problem. Let me paraphrase this interpretation " Concerning the coming of Jesus AND us meeting Him in the air or the rapture, don't let anyone deceive you, Jesus will not come back and the rapture will not take place UNTIL two things happen. The first thing that must happen before Jesus's return and the rapture is.....the rapture.... and the anti-christ is revealed." Ya..I don't get it either.
Thoughts?

Forget the issue of the greek translation for moment and consider, why is paul saying this to the Thessalonians? Most of the commentaries I've read believe that Paul wrote this because of the persecution that was going on, and someone or some group had told the Thessalonians that the Day of The Lord had come, making them feel they were abandoned, Paul seems to be making it clear that it hasn't, and to not let someone saying it came already to discourage you.


That's how I understand it, and I don't think you have to be a pre-tribber to understand that interpretation either.

[Kahtar]

I'm (basically) a pre-tribber, and frankly, I have never heard anyone say the 'falling away' is referring to the rapture. The gathering together refers to it. The falling away refers to a time when great numbers of the 'church' as such will turn away to false teachings and apostasy, as we see happening today.

[penofareadywriter]

How can we possibly know what's going to happen and when?

Jesus commands that we know..Matt 24: 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34

Also, just to throw this out there. If Jesus says that He will come in the night as a thief, then I expect Him to come at any moment without my knowing beforehand.

Ok...first, Jesus is coming as a thief in the night...for the children of the night..
1 Thessalonians 5


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they(the people He is coming to as a thief in the night) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye(you and me), brethren (see ), are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Matt 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready...

[penofareadywriter]

I'm (basically) a pre-tribber, and frankly, I have never heard anyone say the 'falling away' is referring to the rapture. The gathering together refers to it. The falling away refers to a time when great numbers of the 'church' as such will turn away to false teachings and apostasy, as we see happening today.

So how can you read this verse and still hold to pre-tib?

[divaD]

Jesus commands that we know..Matt 24: 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34



Ok...first, Jesus is coming as a thief in the night...for the children of the night..
1 Thessalonians 5


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they(the people He is coming to as a thief in the night) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye(you and me), brethren (see ), are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Matt 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready...

IMO, you are spot on. The question that I have never seen a pre-tribber answer is this. If the idea is that the believer will be raptured out prior to the trib, and prior to the 'as a thief in the night' recorded in 1 Thess 5 , then why are they applying the 'as a thief in the night' to a pre-trib rapture, when clearly that is also being applied to the day when Christ returns suddenly and unexpectedly to take vengance on the ungodly?

And finally, why would Paul even tell the brethern that this day should not overtake them like a thief, if they're not even supposed to be there when that happens anyway? And once again, with that in mind, why are the pre-tribbers applying 'as a thief in the night' to a pre-trib rapture? Is there more than one 'returning as a thief in the night' in the Bible? IOW, does Jesus return as a thief in the night twice??

[John146]

I'm (basically) a pre-tribber, and frankly, I have never heard anyone say the 'falling away' is referring to the rapture. The gathering together refers to it. The falling away refers to a time when great numbers of the 'church' as such will turn away to false teachings and apostasy, as we see happening today.

But Paul indicates that "our gathering together unto Him" happens at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 2:1). Is there more than one future "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"? I don't see any evidence in scripture for that.