Who are the "rest of the dead" in Rev 20:5?

[ross3421]

I would like to start a discussion on if these are godly, ungodly, or both.

So who are they?

[Beckrl]

I would like to start a discussion on if these are godly, ungodly, or both. It is a key to understanding the text.

So who are they?

John speaks of the dead, that are not of Christ.(the unjust or ungodly as you put it) "the rest"
For he just spoke of the dead which is alive in Christ (Rev.20:4)

[The Mighty Sword]

Who are the "rest of the dead"

The Grateful Dead

[ross3421]

John speaks of the dead, that are not of Christ.(the unjust or ungodly as you put it) "the rest"

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So are the rest of the dead part of the first resurrection?

For he just spoke of the dead which is alive in Christ (Rev.20:4

Is not Rev 20:4 only the martyred in Christ?

[Beckrl]

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So are the rest of the dead part of the first resurrection?



Is not Rev 20:4 only the martyred in Christ?

In a sence John places a parenthesis or an after thought.
He in verse 4 spoke of those of the first resurrection, those of Christ.
Then goes on and tells of the others "rest of the dead" those of the second death. And adding his clearification of which resurrection "the first resurrection of those that were alive already. [This is the first resurrection] in reference back to those in verse 4.

I believe the key is that those soul's are alive in Christ, not to say they have been resurrected and given a new immortal body, but John shows that there are two groups in an sence the "just" and 'unjust" the just lives even before they are resurrected in there new bodies. On the other hand those "rest" live not again until the thousand years ends.

Again if the scripture tells us that on the Day of the Lord, both the just and unjust is resurrected out of the graves then both will be resurrected at Christ coming which is after the thousand years.


Is not Rev 20:4 only the martyred in Christ

I tend to see it as all of the righteous, those that have been beheaded and those that just refused to except the mark of the beast.

Hope that makes sence.
Beck

[ross3421]

He in verse 4 spoke of those of the first resurrection, those of Christ.
Then goes on and tells of the others "rest of the dead" those of the second death. And adding his clarification of which resurrection "the first resurrection of those that were alive already. [This is the first resurrection] in reference back to those in verse 4.

I would have to disagree. If John meant to say those of Rev 20:4 were part of the first resurrection then he would have stated such in the verse and not waited to state it in verse 5.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Because it does not make sense at first hand does not mean we adjust text to make it fit. The first resurrection has to be speaking of the rest of the dead in the verse it is written.

So the rest of the dead has to be speaking of the rest of the dead believers which will be blessed and take part in the first resurrection. Of course the ungodly are not part of the first resurrection nor are they blessed.

Though you don't agree, there are two groups of believers spoken in the text, those which live and reign those which are priests.

Martyred = those which live and reign
The rest of the dead (believers) = those which are priests and reign.

I believe the key is that those soul's are alive in Christ, not to say they have been resurrected and given a new immortal body,

But it does say judgment was given unto them? Does not one have to be resurrected to be judged?

Again if the scripture tells us that on the Day of the Lord, both the just and unjust is resurrected out of the graves then both will be resurrected at Christ coming which is after the thousand years.

Your saying that the second coming is after a literal 1000 years?


[

B]Is not Rev 20:4 only the martyred in Christ[/B]

I tend to see it as all of the righteous, those that have been beheaded and those that just refused to except the mark of the beast.

Hope that makes sense.
Beck

Can one refuse the mark of the beast and live physically? Scripture states otherwise Beck. I understand if you do not see it this way then your faced with a dilemma which I am trying to show you.

Mark

[Beckrl]

I would have to disagree. If John meant to say those of Rev 20:4 were part of the first resurrection then he would have stated such in the verse and not waited to state it in verse 5.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Because it does not make sense at first hand does not mean we adjust text to make it fit. The first resurrection has to be speaking of the rest of the dead in the verse it is written.

So the rest of the dead has to be speaking of the rest of the dead believers which will be blessed and take part in the first resurrection. Of course the ungodly are not part of the first resurrection nor are they blessed.

Though you don't agree, there are two groups of believers spoken in the text, those which live and reign those which are priests.

Martyred = those which live and reign
The rest of the dead (believers) = those which are priests and reign.



But it does say judgment was given unto them? Does not one have to be resurrected to be judged?




Your saying that the second coming is after a literal 1000 years?


[

Can one refuse the mark of the beast and live physically? Scripture states otherwise Beck. I understand if you do not see it this way then your faced with a dilemma which I am trying to show you.

Mark

Can one refuse the mark of the beast and live physically?
Who are those that Satan goes against? Saints

Revelation 20
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Revelation 13
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I have not said, that the thousand years is literal

[ross3421]

Can one refuse the mark of the beast and live physically?
Who are those that Satan goes against? Saints

Revelation 20
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Satan would go against God's army coming down from heaven. Would it not be possible for the "camp of the saint" to mean this angelic army? I think so.

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Revelation 13
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The word "should" is to be translated "will be"......It would be different if it said "could" be killed. Plus the following verse supports that all are killed without the mark of the beast.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I have not said, that the thousand years is literal

OK. My assumption. Sorry.

Mark

[possumliving]

I would like to start a discussion on if these are godly, ungodly, or both.

So who are they?

Maybe this will help:

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges {and} to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark {or} permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed (happy, to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power {or} authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

The second death is spiritual death. IE, seperation from God for eternity.

Rev 2:11 He who is able to hear, let him listen to {and} heed what the Spirit says to the assemblies (churches). He who overcomes (is victorious) shall in no way be injured by the second death.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowards {and} the ignoble {and} the contemptible {and} the cravenly lacking in courage {and} the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd {and} adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.

Steph

[ross3421]

The second death is spiritual death. IE, separation from God for eternity.

Rev 2:11 He who is able to hear, let him listen to {and} heed what the Spirit says to the assemblies (churches). He who overcomes (is victorious) shall in no way be injured by the second death.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowards {and} the ignoble {and} the contemptible {and} the cravenly lacking in courage {and} the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd {and} adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.

Steph

I agree it is separation but the second death seems pretty physical to be a spiritual death. I mean, we have folks being thrown in a lake of fire and brimstone whereby there is gnashing of teeth or is all this just spiritual.


Mark

[divaD]

Revelation 20
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved
city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Satan would go against God's army coming down from heaven. Would it not be possible for the "camp of the saint" to mean this angelic army? I think so.

I don't quite follow you here. Verse 20 indicates that satan's army, while upon the earth, compassed the camp of the saints about. This would have to mean that the camp of the saints would also have to be on the earth. Then it goes on to continue, by stating, that it was God who caused the fire to come down from heaven. It states nothing about any fire coming down from heaven via any army, nor does it show any army descending onto the earth at that time. With that in mind, where are you drawing your conclusions from?

[Beckrl]

I agree it is separation but the second death seems pretty physical to be a spiritual death. I mean, we have folks being thrown in a lake of fire and brimstone whereby there is gnashing of teeth or is all this just spiritual.


Mark

Just to maybe add some understanding, Those of the second death "the unjust" will receive an immortal body as well, so their body and soul will be in the lake of fire forever.

[Beckrl]

I don't quite follow you here. Verse 20 indicates that satan's army, while upon the earth, compassed the camp of the saints about. This would have to mean that the camp of the saints would also have to be on the earth. Then it goes on to continue, by stating, that it was God who caused the fire to come down from heaven. It states nothing about any fire coming down from heaven via any army, nor does it show any army descending onto the earth at that time. With that in mind, where are you drawing your conclusions from?

David
I'm not trying to answer for Mark, but I refer it to Ezekiel 38:21-23

Beck

[ross3421]

I don't quite follow you here. Verse 20 indicates that satan's army, while upon the earth, compassed the camp of the saints about. This would have to mean that the camp of the saints would also have to be on the earth. Then it goes on to continue, by stating, that it was God who caused the fire to come down from heaven. It states nothing about any fire coming down from heaven via any army, nor does it show any army descending onto the earth at that time. With that in mind, where are you drawing your conclusions from?

DD,

The camp of the saints is in heaven coming down to earth to fight against Satan's army....... the fire coming down from heaven is the second coming and this army.

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Mark

[divaD]

DD,

The camp of the saints is in heaven coming down to earth to fight against Satan's army....... the fire coming down from heaven is the second coming and this army.

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Mark

Hi Mark. I believe I'm beginning to finally see where you're coming from, and how how you are coming to your conlusions. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm getting there.

Per the context of Joel 2, and according to any chronology of that chapter, where does this place verse 28?

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


The keyword I'm wanting to focus on is 'afterward'. After what? Didn't we see in Acts that this prophecy began to be fulfilled? So, if the verses in Joel 2 leading up to verse 28, are primarily about the day of the Lord, then how does verse 28 fit in with that? It would seem to me that verses 28-32 would have to occur before the prev verses recorded in Joel 2 can occur, yet verse 28 speaks of afterwards. Can you or anyone present some insight into that? At this particular time, I'm not even debating what you posted, I'm just trying to understand it.