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Thread: they shall see the Son of man

  1. #1
    Partaker of Christ Guest

    they shall see the Son of man

    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Are the 'we who are alive and remain', included in the "and they"?

    "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds"

    Other questions if I can:

    What is, the sign of the Son of man in heaven?

    Is this sign; "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" going to be seen by those on earth, who are not born again?

    Also I have this thought;

    Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    If the Jews of 'this generation' are suppose to be the same ones who were audiance to Jesus when He spoke this, then they would have more then the sign of Jonas.

    Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Are the 'we who are alive and remain', included in the "and they"?

    "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds"

    Other questions if I can:

    What is, the sign of the Son of man in heaven?

    Is this sign; "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" going to be seen by those on earth, who are not born again?

    Also I have this thought;

    Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    If the Jews of 'this generation' are suppose to be the same ones who were audiance to Jesus when He spoke this, then they would have more then the sign of Jonas.

    Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    I can only add that the usage of the term "tribes of the earth " refers to the tribes of Israel. Then "and they" would again refer to the tribes of Israel.

    Are the 'we who are alive and remain', included in the "and they"?
    Once again Paul included himself in the "we who are alive and remain" so yes it would include the "and they"


    Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas
    What sign was that? Three days and Three nights

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    What is, the sign of the Son of man in heaven?
    Most people read the phrase "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", and interpret it to mean that a sign will appear in the sky that heralds the Son of Man. Meaning, most people read it so that "in heaven" is an attribute of "the sign".

    But, if I'm not mistaken, the Greek text applies "in heaven" to "the Son of Man", not "the sign". Meaning, "the sign" is a herald of "the Son of Man in heaven".

    • The context of Matthew 24 is found in Matthew 21.33-45, 22.1-15, 23 (especially 23.32-39), and 24.1-3. The context is: the religious Jewish leadership had become corrupt and wicked, and it was murdering and oppressing the righteous followers of God. In turn, God would bring judgment upon the wicked. This would include the destruction of the city of Jerusalem, and the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem.
    • Matthew 24.4-24 is about signs and events that would precede the destruction of the nation of Judea. There would be famines, earthquakes, plagues, civil wars, and persecution of Christ's followers. This all began to happen within just a few years of Christ's ascension to heaven.
    • Matthew 24.29 contains "prophetic language". Those who are familiar with the Old Testament prophets will recognize this language and understand that Christ is not prophesying about a series of cosmic catastrophes that will destroy the planet, but that he is instead prophesying about the destruction of a nation (in this case, Judea, as he blatantly names it in 24.15-16) using "poetic hyperbole". This "cosmic catastrophe" language is, Scripturally, an expression describing the overthrowing of authorities and powers (governments, essentially). Christ is not describing the universe falling apart, he's describing the authority of Judea as falling apart.
    • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven
      • Finally, in Matthew 24.30 Christ says that there will appear "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven". He is not predicting, for example, that a giant cross made out of lightning will appear in the sky (per the Left Behind series). What he is predicting is that "the sign" he has already described will appear that proves that he, the Son of Man, is in heaven at God's right hand. What Christ is saying here is that a certain event that he has already predicted will take place, proving to those who condemned him that he indeed is the Messiah and the Son of God. What is this event? Why is this event "the sign" that will vindicate Christ's claims as to his identity? It is because it is an event that no one believed would ever happen. It is the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem. Christ prophesied several times and in several ways that the temple would be destroyed. His own disciples had trouble understanding this prediction [Matthew 24.1-3], and the corrupt religious folk who condemned him mocked his prediction that the temple would be destroyed.

    • and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
      • The Greek word translated here as "earth" also means "land", and the phrasing "the tribes of the earth" (or "the tribes of the land") is referring to the Jewish peoples, not every nation upon the planet. The Jewish peoples shall mourn, because their nation, Judea, had been conquered, their city, Jerusalem, had been overthrown, and their temple had been destroyed. They're mourning because their homeland had been completely devastated.

    • and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
      • As I describe in this post, Christ is not talking about his second coming here. (Note: For those who wish to trap me in my words, I am not saying there is not a second coming. I am simply saying that this specific prophecy is not about it.) Just like the "cosmic catastrophe" language in verse 24.29 is "poetic hyperbole" for God's judgment upon a nation, so also is the "coming on the clouds" an Old Testament idiom that refers to God bringing judgment upon a people. In this case, Christ is identifying himself with God by claiming that he will be the one "coming on the clouds of heaven" against the nation of Judea. (Of course, the first question to be asked is, "how did they see Christ coming on the clouds if he didn't literally come on the clouds"? The same way a person can say "I see" when they finally grasp a math problem. They aren't "seeing" in the sense of visible sight, they're "seeing" in the sense that they finally understand something. What they are "seeing" is that Christ, in a position solely reserved for God, has come against them in judgment.)
        • This is why John (in the Revelation) almost verbatim quotes Christ here. The Revelation is, for the most part, about God's judgment upon apostate Israel and the city of Jerusalem. This is why (following the greeting) the Revelation really begins with John saying, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over him." John is saying, "Look, Christ is coming with judgment, and everyone will recognize this, including the people who crucified him, and all of the Jewish peoples will mourn because of him." It is the exact same message Christ was making in Matthew 24.



    In short: First, Christ described how Judea and Jerusalem would be assaulted by Gentile armies (the Romans, in 67 AD). [24.15-28] Then, he described the overthrow of the Judean government. [24.29] Then, he described how his claims to his identity ("the Son of Man in heaven", at God's right hand) would be vindicated by "the sign" (the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem, his claim of which is the context for the whole Olivet Discourse). [24.30a] The tribes (i.e., the Jewish peoples) would mourn the destruction of their land [24.30b], and they would know for certain that Christ, in the authority of God, had come upon them in judgment. [24.30c]
    Last edited by markedward; Sep 20th 2009 at 10:12 PM. Reason: [Typo.]

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Most people read the phrase "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", and interpret it to mean that a sign will appear in the sky that heralds the Son of Man. Meaning, most people read it so that "in heaven" is an attribute of "the sign".

    But, if I'm not mistaken, the Greek text applies "in heaven" to "the Son of Man", not "the sign". Meaning, "the sign" is a herald of "the Son of Man in heaven".

    • The context of Matthew 24 is found in Matthew 21.33-45, 22.1-15, 23 (especially 23.32-39), and 24.1-3. The context is: the religious Jewish leadership had become corrupt and wicked, and it was murdering and oppressing the righteous followers of God. In turn, God would bring judgment upon the wicked. This would include the destruction of the city of Jerusalem, and the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem.
    • Matthew 24.4-24 is about signs and events that would precede the destruction of the nation of Judea. There would be famines, earthquakes, plagues, civil wars, and persecution of Christ's followers. This all began to happen within just a few years of Christ's ascension to heaven.
    • Matthew 24.29 contains "prophetic language". Those who are familiar with the Old Testament prophets will recognize this language and understand that Christ is not prophesying about a series of cosmic catastrophes that will destroy the planet, but that he is instead prophesying about the destruction of a nation (in this case, Judea, as he blatantly names it in 24.15-16) using "poetic hyperbole". This "cosmic catastrophe" language is, Scripturally, an expression describing the overthrowing of authorities and powers (governments, essentially). Christ is not describing the universe falling apart, he's describing the authority of Judea as falling apart.
    • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven
      • Finally, in Matthew 24.30 Christ says that there will be appear "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven". He is not predicting, for example, that a giant cross made out of lightning will appear in the sky (per the Left Behind series). What he is predicting is that "the sign" he has already described will appear that proves that he, the Son of Man, is in heaven at God's right hand. What Christ is saying here is that a certain event that he has already predicted will take place, proving to those who condemned him that he indeed is the Messiah and the Son of God. What is this event? Why is this event "the sign" that will vindicate Christ's claims as to his identity? It is because it is an event that no one believed would ever happen. It is the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem. Christ prophesied several times and in several ways that the temple would be destroyed. His own disciples had trouble understanding this prediction [Matthew 24.1-3], and the corrupt religious folk who condemned him mocked his prediction that the temple would be destroyed.
    • and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
      • The Greek word translated here as "earth" also means "land", and the phrasing "the tribes of the earth" (or "the tribes of the land") is referring to the Jewish peoples, not every nation upon the planet. The Jewish peoples shall mourn, because their nation, Judea, had been conquered, their city, Jerusalem, had been overthrown, and their temple had been destroyed. They're mourning because their homeland had been completely devastated.
    • and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
      • As I describe in this post, Christ is not talking about his second coming here. (Note: For those who wish to trap me in my words, I am not saying there is not a second coming. I am simply saying that this specific prophecy is not about it.) Just like the "cosmic catastrophe" language in verse 24.29 is "poetic hyperbole" for God's judgment upon a nation, so also is the "coming on the clouds" an Old Testament idiom that refers to God bringing judgment upon a people. In this case, Christ is identifying himself with God by claiming that he will be the one "coming on the clouds of heaven" against the nation of Judea. (Of course, the first question to be asked is, "how did they see Christ coming on the clouds if he didn't literally come on the clouds"? The same way a person can say "I see" when they finally grasp a math problem. They aren't "seeing" in the sense of visible sight, they're "seeing" in the sense that they finally understand something. What they are "seeing" is that Christ, in a position solely reserved for God, has come against them in judgment.)
        • This is why John (in the Revelation) almost verbatim quotes Christ here. The Revelation is, for the most part, about God's judgment upon apostate Israel and the city of Jerusalem. This is why (following the greeting) the Revelation really begins with John saying, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over him." John is saying, "Look, Christ is coming with judgment, and everyone will recognize this, including the people who crucified him, and all of the Jewish peoples will mourn because of him." It is the exact same message Christ was making in Matthew 24.
    In short: First, Christ described how Judea and Jerusalem would be assaulted by Gentile armies (the Romans, in 67 AD). [24.15-28] Then, he described the overthrow of the Judean government. [24.29] Then, he described how his claims to his identity ("the Son of Man in heaven", at God's right hand) would be vindicated by "the sign" (the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem, his claim of which is the context for the whole Olivet Discourse). [24.30a] The tribes (i.e., the Jewish peoples) would mourn the destruction of their land [24.30b], and they would know for certain that Christ, in the authority of God, had come upon them in judgment. [24.30c]
    Mark, that's much better and more insightful than my response

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Are the 'we who are alive and remain', included in the "and they"?
    One way to answer this question is to ask ....... have the dead in Christ been risen at this point?

    It would appear that In verse 30 and to include 31 that it is in different order than Thess.

    Thess - dead in Christ rise then alive and remain

    Matt - alive and remain then dead in Christ rise

    "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds"
    The "and they" are "the tribes". Beck correctly states they are the tribes of Israel.

    Other questions if I can:

    What is, the sign of the Son of man in heaven?

    Is this sign; "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" going to be seen by those on earth, who are not born again?
    This is the sign the Jews have been looking for.......

    Re 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:


    Also I have this thought;

    Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    If the Jews of 'this generation' are suppose to be the same ones who were audience to Jesus when He spoke this, then they would have more then the sign of Jonas.

    Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    I think there are two generations in view in Matt 24. There are evil and adulteress generations to which Christ's words speak and they will only see the sign of the death, burial, and resurrection as we do today as they did yesterday. However there will be a generation which will see ALL the things spoken in Matt 24 which have yet come to pass whereby they will see the sign of Christ descending (not ascending). And note at this time of this sign and his coming there are the 144,000 faithful tribes of Israel.

    Mark

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