Do Muslims & Christians Have the Same God?

[decrumpit]

It is also a relative question.

• In an Indian village with no Christians, and one Muslim family who believe in One God, Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Ishmael (erhmm!), Jacob, Moses, David, and part of the truth about Mary and Jesus, the fact is that compared to the Hindu families worshipping Ganesh or Venkateshwara, Muslims do believe in the same God.
• In a Mid-West small town where people don't consider Catholics Christians, then obviously the answer might be different.

Since the NT doesn't discuss Islam our question should be this
- (a) which answer is likely to increase the willingness of Christians to witness as Paul did,
- (b) which answer is likely to have the same results in witness as Paul had?

Well, Catholics CAN be Christians (though they have much wrong in their doctrines). Writing them off as cosigned to hell is another issue, but Catholics believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Other groups like the JWs and Mormons reject Christian beliefs and are not considered Christian because of their novel doctrines.

As for your Hindu town example, the debate is between Islam and Hinduism. Christianity cannot be factored into the equation.

[GreekAsianPanda]

Nope.

Our God and Allah are completely different.

First, they have different names. Our God's name is YHWH and the Islamic god's name is Allah. No, I'm serious; his name is just "God." (Although Muslims try to convince us that the God in the Bible's name is Allah.)

Second, they have completely different personalities. For one thing, it is impossible for YHWH to lie, but Allah is described as "the greatest deciever."

Third, YHWH, as we Christians believe, at least, is a Trinity and Allah makes it very clear that he is just one essense and just one person, and would never have a son.

And...I'm sure there's a whole lot more. But that's all I can think of at the top of my head.

[Steven3]

Hi Xel'Naga
What you say about the truth of the same God being inherent in the revelation to Jews (the OT, not the Mishnah Talmuds etc), and the difference between the spirit in the Quran not being of God is undeniably correct. Nevertheless even what you yourself have said still stops short of saying it is of another God, just as I have stopped short, since we all know "there is no other God" (and demons/idols are not gods De32:17,39, etc. Isaiah 44:6,45:5 etc.etc.).

The original question relates to answer being given to a 7th grade teacher who is going to be checking this thread:

I started this post because I'm hoping that my son's teacher (7th grade) will check in here and follow the thread.

They have been teaching the students lies regarding Islam and Christianity, telling the students that Christians believe that Allah is the same God in the Bible.

My son told his teacher that today, and the teacher said that is only paritially true. So, I'm wondering what they mean by that ....

We can all give opinions but finally, the only thing that really matters is not what our attitudes/opinions might be, but what the inspired NT writers, specifically Paul, say.

Let's start with Paul's attitude to paganism:

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O [Zeus] holy and high one—The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,For in thee we live and move and have our being. (Epimenides, The Cretica - 6thC BC prophet and poet, defender of immortality of Zeus against Cretans who said Zeus was dead)

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity. Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.For we are indeed his offspring... (Aratus,310-240BC, poet: The Phaenomena 1-5).

Everyone here recognises the last lines of these 2 pagan quotes from Paul's speech: Acts 17:22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; [Epimenides] as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ [Aratus].

And again, Paul's attitude to paganism in Romans:

Rom.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. .. 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Obviously Paul condems paganism, obviously Zeus, even when quoted of almost favourably in Acts 17, is actually among the gods in Rom1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man. So obviously Zeus is not the same God as the God of Israel (we can conclude that from comparative OT passages about Baal, Moloch, Rimmon). But the point is, Paul doesn't walk into the Areopagus and take a combative "different God" approach - even if in Romans 1, writing to the church there is an element of that, there's the other side too.






So what is the NT attitude to Islam?

That first depends on identifying what is Islam? Is it 100% pagan. No. Is it Jewish? No. Is it Christian? Not in the sense of anything resembling true Christianity, no. But in historical terms Islam is demonstrably an offshoot of 6thC Arab Christianity. Islam is syncretic (rolling Jewish, Christian, pagan elements up into one) but it is not that much more hairy than many other smaller syncretic Christian sects which were found in Arabia, Egypt, Syria during the 3rd-5th Centuries. The only major difference is that military victory consolidated this particular syncretic Arab Christian sect into a dominant force in the reason [not enormously different from the process which consolidated another syncretic Christian sect into the dominant religion in Utah]. So, what is Paul's attitude to syncretism, syncretic Christian sects rolling up bits of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Arab, etc., thought:
2 Co11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept another gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
Gal 1:7 not that there is another Gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Another Jesus? Yes - the Jesus of the Quran appears to have bypassed the crucifixion and ascended directly into heaven: That the Jews said "We killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who disagree are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for, of a surety they killed him not. No, God raised him Jesus unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise. (al-Qur'an 4:157-158)

Another Gospel? Yes.

But "another God"? Where does the NT say that? This is the problem, where in the NT does Paul speak of "another God". Why not stick to Paul's words in discussing problems that aren't so different from problems Paul faced in his own day? Why not stick to Paul's conciliatory approach shown in Acts 17?
S

[Steven3]

Hi Greek Asian Panda
This has been said before, but Allah is just the Arabic word for God - whether Christian Arab or Muslim Arab. I know that in Malaysia and Indonesia among Evangelicals there has been a movement away from using Allah, but in the older Malay and Indonesianya Bibles the word Allah is still used.

Second, they have completely different personalities. For one thing, it is impossible for YHWH to lie, but Allah is described as "the greatest deciever."

The context is catching deceivers in their own deception:

But the Jews were deceptive, and God was deceptive, for God is the best of deceivers (Arabic makr) (Quran 3:54; cf. 8:30)

Are they then secure from God's deception (Arabic makra)? None deems himself secure from God's deception (Arabic makra) except those that perish. (Quran S. 7:99)

The problem is we do have similar verses in the Bible, though I don't know whether the Arabic Christian versions use 'makra' or 'makr':

2 Thess 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion so that they may believe what is false.

What the Quran says is clearly wrong, God is Truth, and ultimately doesn't decieve, but you can see why such ideas as are found in the Quran were circulating among Christians and Jews in 6thC Arabia.
S


PS - I know this is all sounding as if I'm defending Islam, I consider it is defending Paul's approach, that's all.

[decrumpit]

PS - I know this is all sounding as if I'm defending Islam, I consider it is defending Paul's approach, that's all.

Your motives are noble, but do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christians?

They are even closer than Muslims (we share Bibles, albeit heavily redacted Bibles).

In a spirit of love, I would tell them that they are not Christians, and have divorced themselves from the God of love and are instead following Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, etc.

[vja4Him]

Your motives are noble, but do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christians?

They are even closer than Muslims (we share Bibles, albeit heavily redacted Bibles).

In a spirit of love, I would tell them that they are not Christians, and have divorced themselves from the God of love and are instead following Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, etc.

Amen! If Muslims are worshipping the same god as the Christians' God, then God is schizophrenic!

That's definitely not the God of the Bible who I worship!

[Steven3]

Hi Decrumpit

Your motives are noble, but do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christians?

My opinion is irrelevant, I'm not an inspired apostle. However if the question is, what do I think Paul would have thought? Then I would consider it probable that Paul would include them among those preaching "another Jesus", or in fact "two other Jesus" since the Jesus of Book of Mormon and Watchtower are distinct. Regarding the title "Christian" Paul doesn't go there (bear in mind that it was non-Christians who called Christians that in the first place Acts 11:26, 26:28, 1Pe4:16 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian).

A more relevant question - going back to Islam, might be 2Jn1:7 and how the "discern the spirits" question applies to Islam. From my standpoint Muhammed (and several other strands of Arabic Christianity that predate Muhammed) do in fact deny Christ coming in the flesh - so from that standpoint Islam is anti-kristos, though the word in NT usage isn't as potent as in popular usage today. I mean Islam would be anti-kristos in John's Greek terms, the anti-kristos spirit then, but wouldn't be antichrist in popular English usage meaning a last days son of the devil.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

But again, 2Jn 1:7 doesn't contradict what the 7th Grade teacher was saying that historically the God of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity. How could it be a different God when Islam is only one of the dozens of syncretic Christian sects found in Arabia Egypt and Syria in Muhammed's time.

What's the objective? Do we want to make ourselves feel bigger? Or do we want to follow NT guidelines in how to relate to other "offspring" (to quote Paul quoting Aratus about Zeus again) of our one God?
S.

[vja4Him]

We want to bring people to the One, True, Living God. The Muslims worship a false god, who will NOT save them!

They need to know who the real God is.

What is: syncretic Christian sects?

Islam is not just another Christian sect. Islam is a cult. The god of Islam will not save anyone. Only Jesus will save anyone from their sins.

Hi DecrumpitMy opinion is irrelevant, I'm not an inspired apostle. However if the question is, what do I think Paul would have thought? Then I would consider it probable that Paul would include them among those preaching "another Jesus", or in fact "two other Jesus" since the Jesus of Book of Mormon and Watchtower are distinct. Regarding the title "Christian" Paul doesn't go there (bear in mind that it was non-Christians who called Christians that in the first place Acts 11:26, 26:28, 1Pe4:16 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian).

A more relevant question - going back to Islam, might be 2Jn1:7 and how the "discern the spirits" question applies to Islam. From my standpoint Muhammed (and several other strands of Arabic Christianity that predate Muhammed) do in fact deny Christ coming in the flesh - so from that standpoint Islam is anti-kristos, though the word in NT usage isn't as potent as in popular usage today. I mean Islam would be anti-kristos in John's Greek terms, the anti-kristos spirit then, but wouldn't be antichrist in popular English usage meaning a last days son of the devil.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

But again, 2Jn 1:7 doesn't contradict what the 7th Grade teacher was saying that historically the God of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity. How could it be a different God when Islam is only one of the dozens of syncretic Christian sects found in Arabia Egypt and Syria in Muhammed's time.

What's the objective? Do we want to make ourselves feel bigger? Or do we want to follow NT guidelines in how to relate to other "offspring" (to quote Paul quoting Aratus about Zeus again) of our one God?
S.

[Steven3]

Hi Vja4Him

Amen! If Muslims are worshipping the same god as the Christians' God, then God is schizophrenic!

That's definitely not the God of the Bible who I worship!

Well then it's possible that God doesn't listen to muslim prayers. I would also expect that, and want to believe that, though unfortunately I can't produce a Bible verse to prove it. But we don't own God, it's up to God to decide whom he hears. I can't even find a verse that says God didn't listen to Samaritan prayers when they worshipped him as golden calves. Can you?

All we know from the Bible is that God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews who cheat the poor (OT) or Christians who are wife-beaters (Peter), but he also heard pagan Ninevites when they turned to him.

I feel I'm repeating myself here -- a lot of the attitudes that are coming across on this thread don't measure up to NT standards. The attitudes that many of us have in regard to our superior status in relation to God fall short of the approach taken by Paul in talking to Zeus-worshippers (Acts 17) and in talking about Zeus-worshippers (Rom 1&2).

If we're not careful.. we're going to sound like Pharisees in relation to Samaritans.

[Steven3]

What is: syncretic Christian sects?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/syncretism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism#Christianity

For example - Jereboam introduced a syncretic form of Judaism, he introduced Egyptian practices (though Aaron did it first) of golden calves at Bethel and Dan.

[vja4Him]

Are you saying that you think when Muslims do their Muslim prayers, that God is listening, and pleased with their prayers, and accepting their (Muslim) prayers, the same that He would accept Christians' prayers?

I don't think so. If so, then it would seem like there are many pathways to God, and it really doesn't matter then what religion you hold to or practice, that God will accept you.

That is clearly not what the Bible teaches.

Hi Vja4HimWell then it's possible that God doesn't listen to muslim prayers. I would also expect that, and want to believe that, though unfortunately I can't produce a Bible verse to prove it. But we don't own God, it's up to God to decide whom he hears. I can't even find a verse that says God didn't listen to Samaritan prayers when they worshipped him as golden calves. Can you?

All we know from the Bible is that God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews who cheat the poor (OT) or Christians who are wife-beaters (Peter), but he also heard pagan Ninevites when they turned to him.

I feel I'm repeating myself here -- a lot of the attitudes that are coming across on this thread don't measure up to NT standards. The attitudes that many of us have in regard to our superior status in relation to God fall short of the approach taken by Paul in talking to Zeus-worshippers (Acts 17) and in talking about Zeus-worshippers (Rom 1&2).

If we're not careful.. we're going to sound like Pharisees in relation to Samaritans.

[Steven3]

Hi Vja4Him

Well then it's possible that God doesn't listen to muslim prayers. I would also expect that, and want to believe that, though unfortunately I can't produce a Bible verse to prove it. But we don't own God, it's up to God to decide whom he hears. I can't even find a verse that says God didn't listen to Samaritan prayers when they worshipped him as golden calves. Can you?

All we know from the Bible is that God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews who cheat the poor (OT) or Christians who are wife-beaters (Peter), but he also heard pagan Ninevites when they turned to him.

I feel I'm repeating myself here -- a lot of the attitudes that are coming across on this thread don't measure up to NT standards. The attitudes that many of us have in regard to our superior status in relation to God fall short of the approach taken by Paul in talking to Zeus-worshippers (Acts 17) and in talking about Zeus-worshippers (Rom 1&2).

If we're not careful.. we're going to sound like Pharisees in relation to Samaritans.

Are you saying that you think when Muslims do their Muslim prayers, that God is listening, and pleased with their prayers, and accepting their (Muslim) prayers, the same that He would accept Christians' prayers?

I don't think so. If so, then it would seem like there are many pathways to God, and it really doesn't matter then what religion you hold to or practice, that God will accept you.

That is clearly not what the Bible teaches.

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying what I just said above in red. I'm saying I can't find a verse that says that God never listened to Jews worshipping calves at Bethel and Dan. Can you?

Can anyone on this forum?

I don't want God to listen to the prayers of muslims of course not, I would be very unhappy with God if he did, but if we're in the business of telling God whom he can listen to, I'd want to be sure it was done on the basis of Him having first told us, in the Bible.

[decrumpit]

My opinion is irrelevant, I'm not an inspired apostle. However if the question is, what do I think Paul would have thought? Then I would consider it probable that Paul would include them among those preaching "another Jesus", or in fact "two other Jesus" since the Jesus of Book of Mormon and Watchtower are distinct. Regarding the title "Christian" Paul doesn't go there (bear in mind that it was non-Christians who called Christians that in the first place Acts 11:26, 26:28, 1Pe4:16 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian).

Thanks for the distinction. I know that John Paul II kissed the Quran in accord with Paul's exhortation to "become Jewish" but I would say that the way to appeal to Muslims is not to validate their Quran or say that they worship God, but rather to respect their traditions and treat them with kindness and dignity.

A more relevant question - going back to Islam, might be 2Jn1:7 and how the "discern the spirits" question applies to Islam. From my standpoint Muhammed (and several other strands of Arabic Christianity that predate Muhammed) do in fact deny Christ coming in the flesh - so from that standpoint Islam is anti-kristos, though the word in NT usage isn't as potent as in popular usage today. I mean Islam would be anti-kristos in John's Greek terms, the anti-kristos spirit then, but wouldn't be antichrist in popular English usage meaning a last days son of the devil.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Muslims don't deny Jesus came in the flesh, they deny that he is savior, and that he was a prophet who paved the way for Mohammed.

But again, 2Jn 1:7 doesn't contradict what the 7th Grade teacher was saying that historically the God of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity. How could it be a different God when Islam is only one of the dozens of syncretic Christian sects found in Arabia Egypt and Syria in Muhammed's time.

At best, I would say that Muslims profess or try to worship the same God, but at worst betray everything about Him. It could then be argued that the Jehovah's witnesses are worshiping the God who sent Jesus as the ransom or Mormons and their non-trinitarian God who speaks in mock King James English to Joseph Smith.

And just as those sects broke their ties with the Christian community by introducing bizarre new doctrines, so too Islam by its doctrines.

In post 9 I think I made a fair analogy.

[Athanasius]

Hi Xel'Naga
What you say about the truth of the same God being inherent in the revelation to Jews (the OT, not the Mishnah Talmuds etc), and the difference between the spirit in the Quran not being of God is undeniably correct. Nevertheless even what you yourself have said still stops short of saying it is of another God, just as I have stopped short, since we all know "there is no other God" (and demons/idols are not gods De32:17,39, etc. Isaiah 44:6,45:5 etc.etc.).

Well, it's not exactly stopped short if I say the most that I can say without saying something that doesn't make sense.

[Steven3]

Hi Decrumpit

Thanks for the distinction. I know that John Paul II kissed the Quran in accord with Paul's exhortation to "become Jewish"

Huh, I forgot about the previous pope doing that. I don't want to stand in judgment of him for that since I don't know the context (a visit to Saudi Arabia?), and the job of pope is a politician/diplomat, so maybe he thought it would lessen political tensions and reduce the chance of more 911s? Who knows. Maybe him doing that saved lives? It's a political act.... up to politicians to judge it. I searched for context to the photo on Google and didn't find it, but did find that 6 Nov 2007 King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia made the first ever visit to meet Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican. Can't make the world anything but a safer place for muslims and Christians.

...but I would say that the way to appeal to Muslims is not to validate their Quran or say that they worship God, but rather to respect their traditions and treat them with kindness and dignity.

But no, as far as rank-and-file Christians, no I don't think at all it is a helpful approach to validate the Quran. Any more than to validate the 5th-6th Century (Arabian) Christian legends which form part of the Quran's text source base. But what about Paul, does Paul validate Aratus' The Phaenomena and Epimenides' The Cretica?

Muslims don't deny Jesus came in the flesh, they deny that he is savior, and that he was a prophet who paved the way for Mohammed.

I don't know. The thing is John's test in 2Jn1:7 isn't a test of whether someone says Jesus was a saviour or not (Joshua was also a saviour), it's a test of Jesus coming in the flesh. If it applies forward at all from John's day (and I believe it does) then it would apply to Muhammed's semi-Christian group, just at it applied to other semi-Christian groups on the Arabian peninsula at Muhammed's time.

At best, I would say that Muslims profess or try to worship the same God, but at worst betray everything about Him.

Well that seems a reasonable position to me, one in keeping with Paul's comments about Zeus and Jews.



Hi Xel'Naga
Given that the subforum is Apologetics and Evangelism I've been taking the thead from the point of view of preaching to muslims.

What you say about the truth of the same God being inherent in the revelation to Jews (the OT, not the Mishnah Talmuds etc), and the difference between the spirit in the Quran not being of God is undeniably correct. Nevertheless even what you yourself have said still stops short of saying it is of another God, just as I have stopped short, since we all know "there is no other God" (and demons/idols are not gods De32:17,39, etc. Isaiah 44:6,45:5 etc.etc.).

Well, it's not exactly stopped short if I say the most that I can say without saying something that doesn't make sense.

Well, I agree that's all I'm saying. That we should stop short where Paul does. Bringing it forward to the modern day, do we really think that

• given what the OT says to those who worshipped at Bethel and Dan,
• given what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman,
• given what Paul said to Zeus worshippers in Athens,

...then if Paul was visiting Salt Lake City (rather than Athens) he would walk into the marketplace and say "You Mormons are a cult and worship Satan!", it just isn't the attitude of the Bible to people who worship God badly - given that no Christian on this planet worships God 100% correctly, and that no Christian is 100% sola scriptura, if we're honest we'll acknowledge that other sources, Spurgeon, Calvin, Augustine, Max Lucado, whoever, are working on all of us.

Yes Mormons and Islam have had leaders who've given them other books than the Bible. But both of those books betray their historical Christian origins. If anything the Quran probably has more "Christian" content that Book of Mormon or Pearl of Great Price.
The Christianity of the Qur'an Uncovered
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/qurchr1.html
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/qurchr2.html
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/qurchr3.html
The above links are illuminating, and short. Given that Paul was willing to use extremely tenuous similarities with Zeus in Epimenides and Aratus to preach to Zeus worshippers, it means he did his homework. Likewise if we as Christians are going to take views on the Quran we should also do our homework.
God bless
S.