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Thread: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

  1. #31
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    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Just did an update on Tom you might want to read here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...09#post2571409

    Thanks. God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  2. #32

    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Just did an update on Tom you might want to read here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...09#post2571409

    Thanks. God bless
    I wanted to encourage you. It seems very clear that you and your family are doing everything you can to help your nephew. That is something to be proud of. Psalm 46 may also provide comfort. Also I saw that there is a forum on this board for Counseling Requests. Maybe they can help you find a support group in your area that you can go to in person(in person so you can meet the people you are dealing with-most good support groups do not judge or exclude in any way even if you are still working to have an exact diagnosis) that might help you deal with daily things that you have to deal with like medication, hospital processes, and just listening to you as you deal with this. I hope this encourages you.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by inhope View Post
    I wanted to encourage you. It seems very clear that you and your family are doing everything you can to help your nephew. That is something to be proud of. Psalm 46 may also provide comfort. Also I saw that there is a forum on this board for Counseling Requests. Maybe they can help you find a support group in your area that you can go to in person(in person so you can meet the people you are dealing with-most good support groups do not judge or exclude in any way even if you are still working to have an exact diagnosis) that might help you deal with daily things that you have to deal with like medication, hospital processes, and just listening to you as you deal with this. I hope this encourages you.
    That link I posted goes to the counseling forum...but no one on here could offer much help. I realize you are new here and didn't realize that. But I am posting on another board...one I belonged to (well still do) for parents of children/teens with mental illnesses. They have more experience and more access to some sites and have been able to help more.

    I know at one local mental health place here they have parent support meetings..I have gone to them in the past when my son was having problems. Also went through their NAMI workshop too. I am (so far anyway) not dealing with Tom on a day to day basic like Rich has. I don't know if he would be interested in something like this or not..but I could let him know.

    The group I went too had parents of mostly young children in it. (though that was years ago). I am sure there are others in town though. To be frank..and I realize this will probably come off harsh which I am sorry about but many of the parents or grandparents attending these support groups had some pretty major issues themselves and many were extremely negative. They were worn out, burnt out, done in and hopeless...extremely needy...which is understandable. But the fact is they needed support and couldn't really ofter support to others. What I am saying is ..I found the meetings draining and very discouraging...not helpful at all I am afraid. I didn't go very often because of that. I needed hope, encouragement not just hearing about how hard things were with everyone's kids that week.

    Now later when my son was doing better I was asked to attend...I guess to ofter that hope and encouragement to the other parents but you know what? They didn't seem one bit interested. Which was very puzzling to me. So I never went back.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  4. #34
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    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    My sister adopted three children many years ago (all of adult ages now) that were taking by the state from their bio-mother's due to extreme physical or sexual abuse...her and her husband didn't know how serious the abuse was or would have gotten them all into therapy right away. Sadly its also common for those with untreated mental illness to neglect or abuse their children or self medicate by using street drugs or drinking in order to feel 'normal'. All this does of course is make everything much worse. On top of it, these types of mental illnesses can be inherited. All three of my sister's adopted children are dx with bipolar...among other things. One suffered a type of brain damage from his 15 yr old mother doing drugs while pregnant with him so he has a low IQ, a severe learning disability...does not progress what he hears correctly so something said or explained to him he explains later in a completely different way then he was told. This makes it very hard to reason with him...let alone learn in school. Many problems there..too many to list.
    Bless you and your sister. You both have given it all. Imagine those 3 kids without the loving home your sister gave them. They are given a base and although they are not able to "fully" embrace it as normal kids do what would their world be without that base?

    Hope your sister is doing well and is able to persevere without ending up in the "red area" herself.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Bless you and your sister. You both have given it all. Imagine those 3 kids without the loving home your sister gave them. They are given a base and although they are not able to "fully" embrace it as normal kids do what would their world be without that base?

    Hope your sister is doing well and is able to persevere without ending up in the "red area" herself.
    Thanks! She is trying to rebuild her life...(not excluding her adopted adult children though right now she cannot emotionally deal with Tom at all) and has remarried...though he has three troubled adult children of his own and one just got out of prison and is staying with them. I pray......things go well with him! Maybe one of them will learn something and make positive changes in their lives and live a normal...happy and healthy life.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  6. #36

    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    That link I posted goes to the counseling forum...but no one on here could offer much help. I realize you are new here and didn't realize that. But I am posting on another board...one I belonged to (well still do) for parents of children/teens with mental illnesses. They have more experience and more access to some sites and have been able to help more.

    I know at one local mental health place here they have parent support meetings..I have gone to them in the past when my son was having problems. Also went through their NAMI workshop too. I am (so far anyway) not dealing with Tom on a day to day basic like Rich has. I don't know if he would be interested in something like this or not..but I could let him know.

    The group I went too had parents of mostly young children in it. (though that was years ago). I am sure there are others in town though. To be frank..and I realize this will probably come off harsh which I am sorry about but many of the parents or grandparents attending these support groups had some pretty major issues themselves and many were extremely negative. They were worn out, burnt out, done in and hopeless...extremely needy...which is understandable. But the fact is they needed support and couldn't really ofter support to others. What I am saying is ..I found the meetings draining and very discouraging...not helpful at all I am afraid. I didn't go very often because of that. I needed hope, encouragement not just hearing about how hard things were with everyone's kids that week.

    Now later when my son was doing better I was asked to attend...I guess to ofter that hope and encouragement to the other parents but you know what? They didn't seem one bit interested. Which was very puzzling to me. So I never went back.

    God bless
    I think it is fine to be frank about your experience with the support group. It is one option but may not be the best option for you. I have experienced that addressing these things is like other health problems. Finding the help you actually need can be the biggest challenge of all. Most of the time you have to help yourself get your own help if that makes sense. On a regular basis I have to deal with ill-informed people who are very convinced they are giving me helpful information. That is one of the reasons I emphasize prayer. I believe God's knowledge is infinite and the direct relationship we have with God is one's best hope. What often comforts me is my belief that God knows what I am going through whether or not anyone else has a clue. Today I spent all morning trying to find someone who could attend a pretty basic meeting with my employer just as a witness. I called all kinds of faith-based organizations with what I would consider a pretty basic request which is attend the meeting as an impartial person and witness the process as an honest person in case any clarification was needed later (my understanding of a situation can sometimes be different from the average person). The purpose of the meeting is for my employer to work with me on fulfilling my job duties after guidance from my doctor. Each faith agency had some reason about why this just wasn't something they could help me with. So I will attend the meeting with God by my side (apparently his representatives did not think my situation worthy ). I think the biggest challenge facing religion today is the ability of the practitioners to actually apply it to daily life and other people. Hebrews 13 might be of comfort. I hope this helps.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by inhope View Post
    I think it is fine to be frank about your experience with the support group. It is one option but may not be the best option for you. I have experienced that addressing these things is like other health problems. Finding the help you actually need can be the biggest challenge of all. Most of the time you have to help yourself get your own help if that makes sense. On a regular basis I have to deal with ill-informed people who are very convinced they are giving me helpful information. That is one of the reasons I emphasize prayer. I believe God's knowledge is infinite and the direct relationship we have with God is one's best hope. What often comforts me is my belief that God knows what I am going through whether or not anyone else has a clue. Today I spent all morning trying to find someone who could attend a pretty basic meeting with my employer just as a witness. I called all kinds of faith-based organizations with what I would consider a pretty basic request which is attend the meeting as an impartial person and witness the process as an honest person in case any clarification was needed later (my understanding of a situation can sometimes be different from the average person). The purpose of the meeting is for my employer to work with me on fulfilling my job duties after guidance from my doctor. Each faith agency had some reason about why this just wasn't something they could help me with. So I will attend the meeting with God by my side (apparently his representatives did not think my situation worthy ). I think the biggest challenge facing religion today is the ability of the practitioners to actually apply it to daily life and other people. Hebrews 13 might be of comfort. I hope this helps.
    Wow I am sorry to hear that. I would have gone with you and be a witness. Though sometimes I get things confused too... So I don't know how much help I would be...but I would at least try.

    I think because of lack of understanding...and lack of being educated in this area is the reason many churches shy away from it which is really a shame.

    Sorry btw I am so slow in replying! I didn't see this updated on my subscriptions for some reason so didn't know you had replied..plus I wasn't on here much for a number of days as my son's birthday was this weekend and we had a party for him Saturday so I was very busy with plans and doing all of that. Yesterday and today have been busy too. very..! I have gotten behind on my online stuff I am afraid.

    I hope things went well for you at work. Tom is still in the hospital and calling Rich daily...many times mostly to talk about when he 'thinks' he is getting out..is overly focused on that, rather then working on his issues of which he has many. He should be taking advantage of what they have to offer rather then being so overly focused on when he gets out. He is still not being realistic about things at all. They are continuing to adjust his medication too which it sounds like he needs. Its rather disappointing to us that it seems nothing has changed with him. He is also continuing to blame others for things he has done too. Of course he has only been there a little over a week. Frankly I think he needs to be there a few months but I doubt they will keep him that long (and yea I know I am repeating myself on that..lol) guess I am just frustrated..wishing his progress was going better is all.

    Hope you are well!

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  8. #38

    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Wow I am sorry to hear that. I would have gone with you and be a witness. Though sometimes I get things confused too... So I don't know how much help I would be...but I would at least try.

    I think because of lack of understanding...and lack of being educated in this area is the reason many churches shy away from it which is really a shame.

    Sorry btw I am so slow in replying! I didn't see this updated on my subscriptions for some reason so didn't know you had replied..plus I wasn't on here much for a number of days as my son's birthday was this weekend and we had a party for him Saturday so I was very busy with plans and doing all of that. Yesterday and today have been busy too. very..! I have gotten behind on my online stuff I am afraid.

    I hope things went well for you at work. Tom is still in the hospital and calling Rich daily...many times mostly to talk about when he 'thinks' he is getting out..is overly focused on that, rather then working on his issues of which he has many. He should be taking advantage of what they have to offer rather then being so overly focused on when he gets out. He is still not being realistic about things at all. They are continuing to adjust his medication too which it sounds like he needs. Its rather disappointing to us that it seems nothing has changed with him. He is also continuing to blame others for things he has done too. Of course he has only been there a little over a week. Frankly I think he needs to be there a few months but I doubt they will keep him that long (and yea I know I am repeating myself on that..lol) guess I am just frustrated..wishing his progress was going better is all.

    Hope you are well!

    God bless
    In terms of the meeting it turned out okay. I was blessed to find an employment specialist who could advise me before and after the meeting and it ended up taking more than 1 meeting and all of my time and energy for about a week. It was hard. It gave me confidence to go through the process. In the end it was good to go by myself with God by my side.

    The hospital might be a really good source of information about more long term help for your nephew. If you can find a good doctor and a good nurse they can be a really good resource if you catch them when they're not busy or stressed out. Maybe it might help your nephew if he had someone to talk to on a regular basis. I don't know if that would be a psychologist or a church counselor but someone your family can place their trust in. It is nice that you are able to have good things like the birthday party going on too. I have experienced the frustration of dealing with friends/family who seem unable to make any progress whatsoever and only prayer has helped me deal with that issue. I just try not to judge no matter how upset at them I get. Hope your nephew is doing better lately

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by inhope View Post
    In terms of the meeting it turned out okay. I was blessed to find an employment specialist who could advise me before and after the meeting and it ended up taking more than 1 meeting and all of my time and energy for about a week. It was hard. It gave me confidence to go through the process. In the end it was good to go by myself with God by my side.

    The hospital might be a really good source of information about more long term help for your nephew. If you can find a good doctor and a good nurse they can be a really good resource if you catch them when they're not busy or stressed out. Maybe it might help your nephew if he had someone to talk to on a regular basis. I don't know if that would be a psychologist or a church counselor but someone your family can place their trust in. It is nice that you are able to have good things like the birthday party going on too. I have experienced the frustration of dealing with friends/family who seem unable to make any progress whatsoever and only prayer has helped me deal with that issue. I just try not to judge no matter how upset at them I get. Hope your nephew is doing better lately
    Thanks. I am glad things worked out with your employer.

    Tom is still in the hospital and they won't release him until he has a place to go too with a support system in place. So Rich has been talking to the local mental health place here and others in trying to get something set up for Tom. Its mostly up to the hospital or the social worker now to talk to the mental health place and get things set up. It takes time. Meanwhile all Tom can think about is getting out...he is just obsessed with that and we feel isn't focusing on his issues and dealing with them while he has the intense care he is getting...so that is frustrating for us. Doesn't seem like anything with him has really changed. He gets fixated on one thing and that seems to be all he can think about. I don't know if medication can help with that though. Yet other times he is all over the place going from one topic to another!

    I am sure they will set him up with a therapist here and get things straightened out with his insurance. As it is, they only extended it for this month ..its a big confusing mess on that because he should have it no matter what as long as he is considered disabled...which he is and probably always will be.

    Thanks for everything again! I hope the Christmas season isn't being too stressful for you and that things are going well for you.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  10. #40

    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Thanks. I am glad things worked out with your employer.

    Tom is still in the hospital and they won't release him until he has a place to go too with a support system in place. So Rich has been talking to the local mental health place here and others in trying to get something set up for Tom. Its mostly up to the hospital or the social worker now to talk to the mental health place and get things set up. It takes time. Meanwhile all Tom can think about is getting out...he is just obsessed with that and we feel isn't focusing on his issues and dealing with them while he has the intense care he is getting...so that is frustrating for us. Doesn't seem like anything with him has really changed. He gets fixated on one thing and that seems to be all he can think about. I don't know if medication can help with that though. Yet other times he is all over the place going from one topic to another!

    I am sure they will set him up with a therapist here and get things straightened out with his insurance. As it is, they only extended it for this month ..its a big confusing mess on that because he should have it no matter what as long as he is considered disabled...which he is and probably always will be.

    Thanks for everything again! I hope the Christmas season isn't being too stressful for you and that things are going well for you.

    God bless
    Things are a lot less stressful now that the job stuff has settled down. I was really blessed to find the employment specialist who worked with me on the workplace difficulties which were really getting hard. Just a thought but it sounds like health and medication issues aside that your nephew might also be a little bored. Without work, school, a hobby, household chores, just something productive to do each day it can be hard to really feel like you're a part of daily life (and these kinds of things often ease the obsessive thoughts and fixations just by keeping someone busy for a little while) I am sure hospital paperwork is overwhelming so good luck with that part. Maybe later on your nephew could qualify for a job training or school assistance program? (Don't know how much of this is out there but seems like there are a few programs for this) Also as I understand, medications can be more effective when there is daily exercise (as long as exercise type matches medication type)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by inhope View Post
    Things are a lot less stressful now that the job stuff has settled down. I was really blessed to find the employment specialist who worked with me on the workplace difficulties which were really getting hard. Just a thought but it sounds like health and medication issues aside that your nephew might also be a little bored. Without work, school, a hobby, household chores, just something productive to do each day it can be hard to really feel like you're a part of daily life (and these kinds of things often ease the obsessive thoughts and fixations just by keeping someone busy for a little while) I am sure hospital paperwork is overwhelming so good luck with that part. Maybe later on your nephew could qualify for a job training or school assistance program? (Don't know how much of this is out there but seems like there are a few programs for this) Also as I understand, medications can be more effective when there is daily exercise (as long as exercise type matches medication type)
    Glad to hear you are doing well.

    Believe me everyone has tried to get Tom into a normal daily routine. Like I said my sister set him up in a nice apartment last spring and even got him a job for the summer but he didn't take care of his apartment..didn't wash dishes, let food sit in pans...didn't take out trash or wash his clothes though he knows how to do these things he just didn't. At that time he was on his meds. And he had an IEP for school but he just caused so many problems there and wouldn't do the work...

    He basically doesn't want to do anything but party and get drunk and who knows what. His focus on life is just completely unrealistic. I found out why he wants to leave the mental health hospital so badly...he can't smoke there and even though its been three weeks and he shouldn't be having physical withdrawals anymore that is all he can think about...getting out so he can smoke..

    At any rate he is suppose to get out tomorrow. Mom and Rich are going to drive up there...three hours to get there and three hours back! Sadly Tom hasn't changed one bit (which they can tell by the many phone calls). I figure he is headed to being an alcoholic or addicted to drugs... His future is very bleak because he refuses to live any kind of a normal life...just wants to do what he wants to do. We figure him taking his meds won't last long either.

    I really truly feel at this point only God can save Tom. His future will be an early death...or prison because of his big mouth and aggressive behavior...he really makes people angry...especially with all the lying he does and the horrible thing is he can't see this...doesn't understand at all where he is headed. He tends to find and hang out with people that are rough..and cruel and not to be trusted which is why we fear so much for his safety.

    Please pray for him.

    Thank you.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  12. #42

    Re: MINDS ON THE EDGE: Facing Mental Illness

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Glad to hear you are doing well.

    Believe me everyone has tried to get Tom into a normal daily routine. Like I said my sister set him up in a nice apartment last spring and even got him a job for the summer but he didn't take care of his apartment..didn't wash dishes, let food sit in pans...didn't take out trash or wash his clothes though he knows how to do these things he just didn't. At that time he was on his meds. And he had an IEP for school but he just caused so many problems there and wouldn't do the work...

    He basically doesn't want to do anything but party and get drunk and who knows what. His focus on life is just completely unrealistic. I found out why he wants to leave the mental health hospital so badly...he can't smoke there and even though its been three weeks and he shouldn't be having physical withdrawals anymore that is all he can think about...getting out so he can smoke..

    At any rate he is suppose to get out tomorrow. Mom and Rich are going to drive up there...three hours to get there and three hours back! Sadly Tom hasn't changed one bit (which they can tell by the many phone calls). I figure he is headed to being an alcoholic or addicted to drugs... His future is very bleak because he refuses to live any kind of a normal life...just wants to do what he wants to do. We figure him taking his meds won't last long either.

    I really truly feel at this point only God can save Tom. His future will be an early death...or prison because of his big mouth and aggressive behavior...he really makes people angry...especially with all the lying he does and the horrible thing is he can't see this...doesn't understand at all where he is headed. He tends to find and hang out with people that are rough..and cruel and not to be trusted which is why we fear so much for his safety.

    Please pray for him.

    Thank you.

    God bless
    I didn't see that info about the apt/job in other posts so didn't know you guys had tried that. It is hard hard hard to see friends/family suffer I will pray As discouraging as it can be, you never know, God's grace and mercy can come at any time.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by inhope View Post
    I didn't see that info about the apt/job in other posts so didn't know you guys had tried that. It is hard hard hard to see friends/family suffer I will pray As discouraging as it can be, you never know, God's grace and mercy can come at any time.
    That is ok..kind of confusing because I started out posting on that other thread then ended up over here..lol. I hope you had a Merry Christmas!

    Tom got out on Thursday..Rich and mom drove three hours up there to get him then three hours back...long day for them. Got him set up in another hotel with a microwave and a mini frig...

    They had invited him to Christmas Eve services at his church and I invited him to ours...he decided to go to ours. Nate (my son) and Tom went to a movie that afternoon then had supper here then we went to the Christmas Eve service which was very nice..then I took him back to his room. Picked him up the next day and took him to mom's and we all had Christmas there. He forgot to take his morning meds though and Rich could tell. Tom was talking about smoking every ten minutes it seemed like and by supper time I had enough of that and told him we don't want to hear about his cigars or cigarettes or smoking all day long! It was very annoying. He gets so fixated on things then that is all he talks about. Other then that he was alright...I mean well Tom is Tom and no amount of meds or therapy is ever going to change that.

    Like he got the idea if he couldn't smoke and started having withdrawals he would throw up and have a seizure.. I told him I didn't know where in the world he got that idea but no one throws up or has seizures from cigarettes withdrawals. Street drugs they might but not cigarettes. He gets these weird ideas and thinks they are true. He has always been like that.

    The next day all of us except Tom went out of town to my sisters for Christmas...Tom is still not invited because of his behavior towards my sister...his mom.

    And yesterday he has his first assessment appointment with a different local mental health center here that mom and Rich went too. In a couple of weeks he will see a therapist then a med dr. Meanwhile Rich is calling him every morning to tell him to take his meds...he did that on Saturday (Christmas) and Tom said he would take it ..got something to eat then went back to sleep and forgot to take them. Rich is now staying on the phone with Tom to make sure he takes them. Tom just can't remember on his own. Not on a regular day to day basis so Rich talked to Tom's mom about that ...what can be done about it. The last time he was on meds and living in the city they had someone come out to his apartment every day to make sure he took them but he started hiding from them just so he wouldn't have to take them... Said he didn't like how they made him feel. I said yea and then you weren't on your meds and were driving everyone crazy and he said, lets not get into that.

    I am just praying hard for him cause I think that is all that is going to save Tom...I really do.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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