Zechariah 14 - Second Coming?

[DeafPosttrib]

Many Christians believe Second Coming is separate from Rapture in seven year period pap. They nsay, Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming. Many saying Christ only descend from heavevn in the air, but not touch earth at the Rapture. They saying both are difference.

Because many intepreting Zech. 14:4 says that Christ's feet shall touch Mt. Olivet, and causes it shaked cleave in half as valley. They saying this is speaking of Second Coming.

Suppose if they are correct.

Can you find anywhere verse throughout New Testament books saying that Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming?

I haven't find anywhere in the New Testament saying that Christ's feet will touch earth at Second Coming.

My understanding of Zech. 14:4 gives the picture of First Coming that Christ died on the Calvary, when he died, suddenly, there were earthquake strike Jerusalem at same time. Eph. 2:11-14 telling us, that we as Gentiles were separated from the commonwealth of Israel, But, Christ broke the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, became untiy one as the goispel opens to the world from Jersualem.

Also, Zech 14:4 fulfilled that Christ's feet did touched Mt. Olivet - Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 of his sermon about second coming when he was on Mt. Olivet with disciples.

Also, many Christians saying that Second Coming separate from Rapture, as Christ shall come by riding on horse of Revelation chapter 19. While as they saying 1 Thess. 4:13-18 speak of Christ decend out of heaven, not being described of ride on horse.

Ok. The problem is, Neither Matthew chapter 24 or chapter 25 saying that Christ shall come by riding on the horse. Huh?

Even, Zech. 14:4 doesn't saying that Christ rides on the horse either.

Postribs/amills I would like to hear your comment on Zecharian 14:4, is this Second Coming?

Also, pretribs are welcome to discuss on this topic.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[David Taylor]

Postribs/amills I would like to hear your comment on Zecharian 14:4, is this Second Coming?

Phil,
Here's a pretty lengthy thread from the past that discussed this topic pretty thoroughly.

Amill interpretation of Zech 14

p.s.
Many of the threads in that link were archived...I'm not sure if you will be able to see them or not; so if the links don't work, let me know and I can restore them for you.

[Bible2]

Zechariah 14 - Second Coming?

Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' second coming, with all of his saints (Zechariah 14:5b, 1 Thessalonians 3:13), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the second-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21, and Zechariah 14:4 shows that at Jesus' second coming he will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at his first coming he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return like he left.

Regarding the rapture, it won't occur until Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

[ross3421]

Many Christians believe Second Coming is separate from Rapture in seven year period pap. They nsay, Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming. Many saying Christ only descend from heavevn in the air, but not touch earth at the Rapture. They saying both are difference.

Because many intepreting Zech. 14:4 says that Christ's feet shall touch Mt. Olivet, and causes it shaked cleave in half as valley. They saying this is speaking of Second Coming.

Suppose if they are correct.

Can you find anywhere verse throughout New Testament books saying that Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming?

I haven't find anywhere in the New Testament saying that Christ's feet will touch earth at Second Coming.

My understanding of Zech. 14:4 gives the picture of First Coming that Christ died on the Calvary, when he died, suddenly, there were earthquake strike Jerusalem at same time. Eph. 2:11-14 telling us, that we as Gentiles were separated from the commonwealth of Israel, But, Christ broke the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, became untiy one as the goispel opens to the world from Jersualem.

Also, Zech 14:4 fulfilled that Christ's feet did touched Mt. Olivet - Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 of his sermon about second coming when he was on Mt. Olivet with disciples.

Also, many Christians saying that Second Coming separate from Rapture, as Christ shall come by riding on horse of Revelation chapter 19. While as they saying 1 Thess. 4:13-18 speak of Christ decend out of heaven, not being described of ride on horse.

Ok. The problem is, Neither Matthew chapter 24 or chapter 25 saying that Christ shall come by riding on the horse. Huh?

Even, Zech. 14:4 doesn't saying that Christ rides on the horse either.

Postribs/amills I would like to hear your comment on Zecharian 14:4, is this Second Coming?

Also, pretribs are welcome to discuss on this topic.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

It should be clear that it is the second coming.

The problem with understanding this is that there are folks after the second coming which are disobedient as some do and don't choose to worship the king.

There are those which say this is the millennium however as I have stated on other threads I see that in the new world there is again re population from those which will inherit the land from the start ie 144,000. It will be their offspring which will choose to serve or not however not serving has it's consequences as God will rule will a rod of iron.


Mark

[Prophecy Countdown]

Many Christians believe Second Coming is separate from Rapture in seven year period pap. They nsay, Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming. Many saying Christ only descend from heavevn in the air, but not touch earth at the Rapture. They saying both are difference.

Because many intepreting Zech. 14:4 says that Christ's feet shall touch Mt. Olivet, and causes it shaked cleave in half as valley. They saying this is speaking of Second Coming.

Suppose if they are correct.

Can you find anywhere verse throughout New Testament books saying that Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming?

I haven't find anywhere in the New Testament saying that Christ's feet will touch earth at Second Coming.

My understanding of Zech. 14:4 gives the picture of First Coming that Christ died on the Calvary, when he died, suddenly, there were earthquake strike Jerusalem at same time. Eph. 2:11-14 telling us, that we as Gentiles were separated from the commonwealth of Israel, But, Christ broke the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, became untiy one as the goispel opens to the world from Jersualem.

Also, Zech 14:4 fulfilled that Christ's feet did touched Mt. Olivet - Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 of his sermon about second coming when he was on Mt. Olivet with disciples.

Also, many Christians saying that Second Coming separate from Rapture, as Christ shall come by riding on horse of Revelation chapter 19. While as they saying 1 Thess. 4:13-18 speak of Christ decend out of heaven, not being described of ride on horse.

Ok. The problem is, Neither Matthew chapter 24 or chapter 25 saying that Christ shall come by riding on the horse. Huh?

Even, Zech. 14:4 doesn't saying that Christ rides on the horse either.

Postribs/amills I would like to hear your comment on Zecharian 14:4, is this Second Coming?

Also, pretribs are welcome to discuss on this topic.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Hi DeafPosttrib, I hope this is of some help to you.

The timing is the thing that you may need to look at. In 1 Corinthian 15: 49 – 57, we are told of the resurrection of life at trump 7.

Following, after the resurrection, in Rev 19: 1 –9, we are to be blessed at the wedding supper, then from verses 10 – 21 we are to prepare and go to war back on Earth with the Lord.

Now we go to Zechariah 14: 1 – 9, and please note this following verse which is still on the same day of the Lord where all the verses that I have quoted above and below occur upon, even when the Saints return to fight. I will highlight the key words for you in blue.

Zechariah 14: 5.And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
PC

[Firstfruits]

Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' second coming, with all of his saints (Zechariah 14:5b, 1 Thessalonians 3:13), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the second-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21, and Zechariah 14:4 shows that at Jesus' second coming he will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at his first coming he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return like he left.

Regarding the rapture, it won't occur until Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

According to the following scriptures the saints being spoken of are his angels.

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Mk 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Lk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Prophecy Countdown]

Timing of events, firstly of the Lord’s second advent, with the Ancient of Days, where the angels gather up the elect/Saints then on the same day of the Lord with His Saints as part of His heavenly ‘armies’ after the wedding supper return for the battle of Armageddon.

Daniel 7: 8. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Dan 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Isaiah 14: 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14: 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Psalms 48: 2. Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Rev 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Rev 11: 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Zechariah 14: 1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zecariah 14: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Dan 7:10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 5:11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Mt 16:27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works

Mt 25:31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Lk 9:26. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Math 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Math 24: 31..And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 7: 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Rev 19: 7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19: 8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19: 13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19: 14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19: 15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14: 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 14: 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14: 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14: 9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

[Bible2]

Regarding the saints in Zechariah 14:5 being only the angels, that may not be the case. For at Jesus' second coming, he will also bring with him from heaven all the souls of all the human saints who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And after they are resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16), they, along with all the human saints who survived the tribulation, will be caught up together (gathered together, raptured) into the sky to have a meeting with Jesus in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). At that meeting, Jesus will judge all the human saints (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and then marry them (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before they all mount white horses and descend back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14, cf. Revelation 19:7-8) as he wages war against all the armies of the world gathered against Jerusalem (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:2-5). After Jesus defeats all the armies of the world, he will then reign on the earth with all the human saints for 1000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:8-21).

[Firstfruits]

Regarding the saints in Zechariah 14:5 being only the angels, that may not be the case. For at Jesus' second coming, he will also bring with him from heaven all the souls of all the human saints who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And after they are resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16), they, along with all the human saints who survived the tribulation, will be caught up together (gathered together, raptured) into the sky to have a meeting with Jesus in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). At that meeting, Jesus will judge all the human saints (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and then marry them (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before they all mount white horses and descend back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14, cf. Revelation 19:7-8) as he wages war against all the armies of the world gathered against Jerusalem (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:2-5). After Jesus defeats all the armies of the world, he will then reign on the earth with all the human saints for 1000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:8-21).

So that therefore takes place at the same time, or as it is written, in the twinkling of an eye.

Firstfruits

[Hawk]

Many Christians believe Second Coming is separate from Rapture in seven year period pap. They nsay, Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming. Many saying Christ only descend from heavevn in the air, but not touch earth at the Rapture. They saying both are difference.

Because many intepreting Zech. 14:4 says that Christ's feet shall touch Mt. Olivet, and causes it shaked cleave in half as valley. They saying this is speaking of Second Coming.

Suppose if they are correct.

Can you find anywhere verse throughout New Testament books saying that Christ's feet shall touch earth at Second Coming?

I haven't find anywhere in the New Testament saying that Christ's feet will touch earth at Second Coming.

My understanding of Zech. 14:4 gives the picture of First Coming that Christ died on the Calvary, when he died, suddenly, there were earthquake strike Jerusalem at same time. Eph. 2:11-14 telling us, that we as Gentiles were separated from the commonwealth of Israel, But, Christ broke the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, became untiy one as the goispel opens to the world from Jersualem.

Also, Zech 14:4 fulfilled that Christ's feet did touched Mt. Olivet - Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 of his sermon about second coming when he was on Mt. Olivet with disciples.

Also, many Christians saying that Second Coming separate from Rapture, as Christ shall come by riding on horse of Revelation chapter 19. While as they saying 1 Thess. 4:13-18 speak of Christ decend out of heaven, not being described of ride on horse.

Ok. The problem is, Neither Matthew chapter 24 or chapter 25 saying that Christ shall come by riding on the horse. Huh?

Even, Zech. 14:4 doesn't saying that Christ rides on the horse either.

Postribs/amills I would like to hear your comment on Zecharian 14:4, is this Second Coming?

Also, pretribs are welcome to discuss on this topic.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I see the events of Zech. 14:4 happening as part of the "second coming proper", as some would like to say. It's part of Jesus' parousia, but that involves much more than a simple appearance in the sky in glory. Paul used the word parousia purposely. Historically parousia was commonly used to describe the visit of a king to a city in his domain. As the king would approach the city he would be met some distance outside of the town by a select group of dignitaries and close relatives, who would then accompany him in his procession through the city gates to be seen by the resident population. The historical usage of the word parousia clearly pictures what the New Testament describes as occurring at the Second Coming. Believers, both those who have died and those who are still living, will “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) and accompany Him on the last part of his journey back to earth.

With that in mind, I see three stages to Jesus' return:

1) Jesus' appearance in the sky (1 Thess. 4)
2) Jesus' procession on the land (Isa. 63, Hab. 3)
3) Jesus' procession into Jerusalem for His coronation (Ps. 24, Zech. 14:4, Jer. 3:17; Zech. 6:12; Ezek. 43:7)

Jesus is returning in the context of a military campaign around Jerusalem. He will come to ultimately end the battle for Jerusalem (which culminates in the battle of Armageddon). He will appear in the sky, we will be caught up with Him, and then make our way with Him down to the ground where He will march through Edom/Bozrah (modern day Jordan), killing His enemies on His way to Jerusalem (Isa. 34:1-10; 63:1-6; Hab. 3:3-18; Ps. 110:5-6; Deut. 33:2; Num. 24:17-19; Rev. 19:11-16).

I believe Zech. 14:4 happens after the rapture and the campaign through Bozrah, when Jesus marches into Jerusalem and stands on the Mount of Olives. I don't believe that he "lands" there, contrary to common pre-trib doctrine.

Hawk

[John146]

I see the events of Zech. 14:4 happening as part of the "second coming proper", as some would like to say. It's part of Jesus' parousia, but that involves much more than a simple appearance in the sky in glory. Paul used the word parousia purposely. Historically parousia was commonly used to describe the visit of a king to a city in his domain. As the king would approach the city he would be met some distance outside of the town by a select group of dignitaries and close relatives, who would then accompany him in his procession through the city gates to be seen by the resident population. The historical usage of the word parousia clearly pictures what the New Testament describes as occurring at the Second Coming. Believers, both those who have died and those who are still living, will “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) and accompany Him on the last part of his journey back to earth.

With that in mind, I see three stages to Jesus' return:

1) Jesus' appearance in the sky (1 Thess. 4)
2) Jesus' procession on the land (Isa. 63, Hab. 3)

What does this mean exactly? What would it entail? Is this the picture that is painted for us in the NT scriptures that speak of His coming? Not that I can see.

3) Jesus' procession into Jerusalem for His coronation (Ps. 24, Zech. 14:4, Jer. 3:17; Zech. 6:12; Ezek. 43:7)

I see that you use Zechariah 6:12 as one of your scripture references. Is that verse speaking of Jesus being coronated in Jerusalem in the future or is it speaking of something that happened in the past?

Zech 6
12And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Is that not speaking of this temple:

Eph 2
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Is He not already the high priest on His throne in heaven?

Hebrews 4
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus is returning in the context of a military campaign around Jerusalem. He will come to ultimately end the battle for Jerusalem (which culminates in the battle of Armageddon). He will appear in the sky, we will be caught up with Him, and then make our way with Him down to the ground where He will march through Edom/Bozrah (modern day Jordan), killing His enemies on His way to Jerusalem (Isa. 34:1-10; 63:1-6; Hab. 3:3-18; Ps. 110:5-6; Deut. 33:2; Num. 24:17-19; Rev. 19:11-16).

I don't agree with this scenario at all, as you already know. You make it seem as if His coming will be a slow process. How exactly would your scenario line up with Him saying that His parousia would be as the lightning flashes from the east to the west?

[Hawk]

What does this mean exactly? What would it entail? Is this the picture that is painted for us in the NT scriptures that speak of His coming? Not that I can see.

It means that Jesus will literally march on the ground through modern day Jordan slaying His enemies. Rev. 19:11-21.

If it does not mean that, then what does Isa. 63:1-3 mean?

I see that you use Zechariah 6:12 as one of your scripture references. Is that verse speaking of Jesus being coronated in Jerusalem in the future or is it speaking of something that happened in the past?

Zech 6
12And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Is that not speaking of this temple:

Eph 2
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Is He not already the high priest on His throne in heaven?

Hebrews 4
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Of course I agree with your scriptures, but as you know I believe Jesus will sit on an earthly throne - that's where we begin to differ, and many other threads have discussed this topic. But if you have any thoughts on some of the other passages, I'd be happy to discuss them.

I don't agree with this scenario at all, as you already know. You make it seem as if His coming will be a slow process. How exactly would your scenario line up with Him saying that His parousia would be as the lightning flashes from the east to the west?

For other folks reading this thread, the passage in question is Mt. 24:27 and Luke 17:24. It doesn't make sense that Jesus was talking about the speed of His return in this passage. How would every eye see Him, recognize Him as a Jewish human being named Jesus, and mourn if He is traveling around the earth at 130,000 mph? That just doesn't make sense.

If it was talking about the speed of His return, that would be the only passage that speaks of it, in contradiction to the others I pointed out above that reference Jesus actually on the earth as part of His parousia. Our culture has colored our understanding of what Jesus was really speaking of here.

It is much more likely that Jesus was speaking of the visibility of His return. No one will "miss it", in the same manner and brightness that lightning that flashes in the east is seen in the west. Perhaps another translation would be more helpful:

For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Mt. 24:27 ESV)

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Mt. 24:27 NIV)

Hawk

[John146]

It means that Jesus will literally march on the ground through modern day Jordan slaying His enemies. Rev. 19:11-21.

Well, Revelation 19:11-21 certainly doesn't say that.

If it does not mean that, then what does Isa. 63:1-3 mean?

Sometimes literal places are used symbolically in prophetic scripture. I believe this is another example of that. Edom and Bozrah don't even exist anymore. I believe they were used as figures of the type of people that Christ will destroy at His coming. Scripture teaches that Christ is coming to take vengeance on all those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:7-8) and not just on those in certain places.

Of course I agree with your scriptures, but as you know I believe Jesus will sit on an earthly throne

There's no scripture that says He will ever sit on an earthly throne. That would be quite a step down from where He sits now.

- that's where we begin to differ, and many other threads have discussed this topic. But if you have any thoughts on some of the other passages, I'd be happy to discuss them.

I do, but I don't feel like discussing all of them right now. That was just one that stuck out to me because I believe we clearly see the fulfillment of that passage from Zechariah 6 in the temple of the Lord built upon our high priest and corner stone of the temple, Jesus Christ.

For other folks reading this thread, the passage in question is Mt. 24:27 and Luke 17:24. It doesn't make sense that Jesus was talking about the speed of His return in this passage. How would every eye see Him, recognize Him as a Jewish human being named Jesus, and mourn if He is traveling around the earth at 130,000 mph? That just doesn't make sense.

That isn't what I'm saying. Wow. I'm saying He will arrive quickly. One moment He'll be in heaven and the next He'll be descended from heaven and will then be "in the air". It doesn't say anything about Him continuing down to the earth and traveling on the earth. Your scenario doesn't even have Him traveling all across the earth so how could every eye see Him in that scenario? It seems like He could be seen much easier and by more people at once if He is up "in the air".

If it was talking about the speed of His return, that would be the only passage that speaks of it

Really?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

, in contradiction to the others I pointed out above that reference Jesus actually on the earth as part of His parousia.

You are referencing OT scriptures that do not even mention His parousia in them. It can't contradict verses that aren't even related to His parousia.

Our culture has colored our understanding of what Jesus was really speaking of here.

It is much more likely that Jesus was speaking of the visibility of His return.

I believe He was speaking of both how quickly He would come and how visible His coming would be.

No one will "miss it", in the same manner and brightness that lightning that flashes in the east is seen in the west.

Yes, I agree with that.

Perhaps another translation would be more helpful:

For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Mt. 24:27 ESV)

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Mt. 24:27 NIV)

Hawk

Lightning strikes quickly and visibly.

[Hawk]

That isn't what I'm saying. Wow. I'm saying He will arrive quickly. One moment He'll be in heaven and the next He'll be descended from heaven and will then be "in the air". It doesn't say anything about Him continuing down to the earth and traveling on the earth. Your scenario doesn't even have Him traveling all across the earth so how could every eye see Him in that scenario? It seems like He could be seen much easier and by more people at once if He is up "in the air".

Well, I didn't want to lay out my entire scenario, but it certainly does account for Him traveling across the earth so that every eye could see Him, recognize Him, and mourn. If Jesus does not actually "return" to the earth in the same manner in which He ascended to heaven, does the full extent of his parousia simply occur on a cloud? It would seem to me that you have an overly platonic understanding of the second coming, as Mattthehitmanhart pointed out in this post.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

So you believe the "quickly" here is referencing the time it takes for Jesus to descend from heaven to be in the clouds in the air? Do you have any scripture to back that up? Why would that even matter since the entire point of His parousia is to come in context to a military conflict just outside of Jerusalem?

You are referencing OT scriptures that do not even mention His parousia in them. It can't contradict verses that aren't even related to His parousia.

I believe He was speaking of both how quickly He would come and how visible His coming would be.

You seem to have missed my point on the historical idea of a parousia. Jesus meets dignitaries (us) outside of the city (in the air) but proceeds to Jerusalem, where he forcibly takes over and is coronated as King of the earth.

Hawk

[Prophecy Countdown]

Bible2 “And after they are resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16), they, along with all the human saints who survived the tribulation, will be caught up together (gathered together, raptured) into the sky to have a meeting with Jesus in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31).At that meeting, Jesus will judge all the human saints.”

Imho, the judgment of the Saints is made before the day of the Lord and resurrection, and that is acted upon when the sheep are separated from the goats and are called to the wedding supper in the kingdom of God, consequently lifted up in the air. When we are forgiven didn’t Jesus say. “I will remember their sins no more?


Jeremiah 31: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Matthew 11: 28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 10: 14. “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.”
The Lord knows His children.
God’s children of all generations are entered into the book of life from the time of those now sleeping in the dust from the foundation of the Earth, when they confessed their sins and were themselves showing forgiveness towards others. Jesus has the power to forgive our sins instantly as our Sin Bearer.
The nations will be gathered and the judgment division will be carried out before the angels gather up the dead, being raised first, then the living will join them in the air.

The moment Adam knew of sin, he hid from the Lord, in Gen 3: 8 – 9 and so will those under the law, on the day of the Lord.

Rev 6: 14. “Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.”

Rev 6: 15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 6: 16. and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev 7: 1. After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.

Rev 7: 2. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3. saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Rev 7: 4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

9. After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10. and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

11. All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Matthew 25: 31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The division is made before the angels gather His children. They are those whose names were entered into the book of life. Those that are sealed with the seal of God and then, are invited into the everlasting kingdom.

Matthew 25: 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Luke 11: 4. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Luke 17: 3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

1 John 1: 9.“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

No man can put on incorruption, unless judged as being forgiven through the Son and of the Father. It is at the wedding supper that God’s children are given white robes called ‘the righteousness of the Saints.” See Rev 19: 8.

There is no judgment of those found written in the book of life who’s sins at the point of forgiveness and are not remembered by their Lord, those invited to the wedding supper are freed from the Law by the grace of God.
We cannot be changed in our present state, being rightly judged guilty under the law, unless of course, we confess our sins and place our yoke, a heavy burden upon our Sin Bearer’s shoulders where we are forgiven and our sins forgotten.

1 Corinthians 15: 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15: 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15: 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15: 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15: 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15: 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1 Corinthians 15: 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15: 57. But thanks to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The division between the goats and sheep is made before the resurrection. Imho.

Rev 11: And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11: 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 11: 13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11: 14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

From the resurrection we see a great multitude in Heaven and as the case in other verses there does not seem to be any mention of a judgment for those freed from under the law by God’s grace.

Rev 11: 15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11: 16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11: 17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Paul, repeats the following promise from Jeremiah 31: 33 –34.

Hebrews 8: 10. “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:”

May it be so.