Is the tribulation God's wrath?

[The Mighty Sword]

Is the tribulation God's wrath?

The tribulation is a time of the separation of dross, The refinement of the Saints.

[Veretax]

Veretax,

Re 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Who gave John tribulation…God or man? Do we charge God for the tribulation of John? God may have known about John's tribulation, but God did not cause tribulation upon John. If we say God caused persecution upon Jonh, That would be falsely accusing God, because we know that John's persecution came from the hands of the ungodly.
God may know about things and he may permit it, but that does not mean God did the deed.

Stop! you are missing my point, John was going under Tribulation then on Patmos. Was that the Great Tribulation that we find later in Revelation or in Ezekiel or Daniel? No it wasn't. The point I am making is not where the tribulation was coming, but when and what is called Tribulation, and no doubt the people of the early church did suffer great trials, but was it THE tribulation? I don't think so. SO before I continue I want you to understand that in this post that you reply too my point is to show that Tribulation is a word not just used to describe what is done to believers, and it isn't just happening in the end times, it can happen today too, but what makes the Tribulation different is it will be a time of Trial like never before, and never will be again.

Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Christians who have tribulation today… Did God kill them, persecute them and cause bodily harm to those Christians?
Do we charge those deaths and persecutions to God also?

Again missed my point, however, to answer your question, did God heal paul's infirmity? No, he didn't. COuld he have? YOu bet he could have, he didn't because it served his purpose. Do you know that the bible says God sets up one king and tears another down? God is not just involved in the affairs of his people, he is involved in the entire world.

Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
The devil shall cast them into prison and they shall have tribulation. Do we also charge this to God, when it plainly says Satan did it?

God is warning them about it, and is allowing it, the question you should be asking is not if God has a say in this, he certainly does, the question is why, and the Answer is a simple two words. for "His Glory".

Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. This scripture is talking about the woman Jezebel and people like her, God will cast into tribulation. Is Jezabel a saved Christian? NO!

See you just admit that in this case God does bring tribulation to people who are not even Christian! Wow do you not see what you just said you are making my point for me in essence. God brings tribulation and judgment to man in his own time. God allows trial and tribulation to his church for his glory, but also for our edification and refinement. That is why I believe that we are not raptured the moment we believe. There is so much more to it.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If these people washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, they are the Church. Rev 6:11 tells us they were killed

Yes, these people where Christians the CHurch no doubt there, yet, look when this verse appears.. I believe these are the same ones seen in the fifth seal...

Rev 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Why were they slain? For the Word of God and for the Testimony they held. That's the Church, no doubt there.

the next one I covered, so I'll skip ahead

You ask did God kill them? Not directly, but I believe God has a plan for the people of this planet each of us, and he knows the day we will die. He could prevent it or raise is if it was his choosing as we see in a few miracles in the bible.

Now, I think you’ll agree that this is talking about things done to the church, or various churches, or to Christians. But you might not realize it is the same word translated afflicted in James
I agree that tribulation, persecution & affliction is done to the Church. The problem I have is trying to accuse God for those killed & afflicted by the hands of man.

I am not accusing God of it, God's plan is God's plan and better than any one any of us could concot. Besides I don't want to live for ever on this earth, I want to be with him anyways. What was it written? TO live is Christ, to die is gain? No you misunderstand what I am saying. God could snuff out Satan and his angels now if he wanted, he doesn't because it is part of his plan to bring more of Humanity to belief in him. However, the bible tells us not even a single sparrow passes without his notice. I believe God is on the throne and in control even in this time of Tribulation.


I think you want to say its Satans wrath because you don't won't to acknowledge that Satan has hand cuffs on him. Look at the Story of Job, Lucifer wasn't able to do anything with out God's permission and even then he put limits on what he could do. So yes, in the Tribulation satan and his angels will be allowed to run amok, we've been forewarned of it in the Bible, does that change that it was part of God's plan to bring an end to this present age? No I don't think it does.

[Veretax]

We are not appointed to God's wrath. It doesn't say anywhere that we can't experience Satan's wrath even while God's wrath is coming down on unbelievers. It also doesn't say anywhere that we can't be kept safe from God's wrath even while we are still on the earth.

One last thing, as I said in my prior post, Satan has no authority or power that God does not allow him to exercise. That does not mean God is at fault for the evil that he does, but it doesn't mean that he does not plan and allow it to happen. That may same a harsh thing, or a contradiction to some but it really isn't, for how could we know good in the absence of evil? Alas that's not a topic for this forum I think.

[Gods Child]

So how is it that God’s Wrath is being poured out during the Tribulation at the same time as Satan’s wrath? Are we not appointed to wrath as it is written? Remember, Satan has no power to do anything unless God allows it, so how is it Satan’s wrath will be against the Church when we are told we are not appointed to wrath? I find that such thoughts lead me more to a pre-trib rapture than a post-trib, so I’m not sure how your making the leap from here to there.

Scripture is Clear that we as Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, but that does not exclude us from Satan's wrath, nor are Christians exempt from the wrath from the ungodly,,,, for that is what tribulation is. Tribulation to Christians comes from the ungodly, but God did not persecute (tribulation) those Christians.

Is that not what the Scripture shows..
Scripture shows;
God's wrath upon the ungodly...
And Satan's wrath against the Godly.

So by what you are saying; Everytime Satan kills/persecutes a Christian, then we are to accuse God of this killing even though God allowed it?
In essence this is what you are saying....God allowed it, so God killed those Christians. Are you prepared to stand on Judgment day and accuse God of those persecutions/killings by Satan, just because he allowed them...Did God do it?
At this very moment you are already unknowingly accusing God for Satan's wrath/killings when you make such statements like; "Satan has no power to do anything unless God allows it" which in essence you are saying what Satan did, God allowed it, so God is guilty of the outcome of the death of those Christians.

Who is persecuting whom is what you need to see within the tribulation and not wrongfully accuse God when the ungodly kill the Christians.

Are we to go as far as to say God did the killing? Then if God did the killing, then God would have to face the "Great White throne Judgment", because God himself killed a Christian, even thought the scripture is plain that it was Satan who had the wrath & persecuted the Christians...Still...Some blame GOD.

We are not appointed to wrath by God, because God does not appoint wrath to those who are saved....We are never appointed to God's wrath, because we have Salvation....Or are you saying God gives wrath to the saved?

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

[Gods Child]

One last thing, as I said in my prior post, Satan has no authority or power that God does not allow him to exercise. That does not mean God is at fault for the evil that he does, but it doesn't mean that he does not plan and allow it to happen. That may same a harsh thing, or a contradiction to some but it really isn't, for how could we know good in the absence of evil? Alas that's not a topic for this forum I think.

No you didn't get the point.

We are not appointed to wrath means that we as Christians HAVE NEVER BEEN APPOINTED TO WRATH, because we have salvation. We are not appointed to his wrath now and we will NEVER be appointed to his wrath.
That has nothing to do with the Great tribulation. It is just a statement that God has made.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The statement was made...We (Christians) who have salvation are not appointed to God's wrath is all 1 Thes 5:9 is saying....This was true in Paul's day when Paul wrote 1 Thes 5:9...Paul was not appointed to wrath, because Paul had salvation. This is ALL that this scripture saying...
If you are saved (have salvation), then you are not appointed to God's Wrath. This scripture does not just mean the Great Tribulation...It means that all Christians (throughout time) have and never will be appointed to God' wrath, but that does not mean we are not subject to Satan's wrath or we are not subject to the wrath of men.

[Bible2]

I think you need to review revelation, particularly the seals... Look here:

Rev 6:14-17

If one reviews the thread, look to post #21 where this passage was discussed.

but consider that man doesn't try to make an excuse but is clearly saying this is from God, and for good reason, why would satan cast his wrath upon those that are not God's?

What man says is not always right, and Satan would have good reason for man to mistakenly think that the sixth seal, not to mention the entire tribulation, is YHWH's wrath when it isn't, so that Satan during the tribulation can then falsely portray himself to man as the good guy who only loves mankind and only wants to help mankind while YHWH is the bad guy who only hates mankind and only wants to make mankind suffer.

Satan could take great pleasure in not only bringing most of the suffering of the tribulation upon mankind, but then employing that same horrible suffering to help turn mankind, even some believers, completely against YHWH (Isaiah 8:21-22). In this way, Satan could have his cake and eat it too.

why would satan cast his wrath upon those that are not God's?

Why couldn't Satan have wrath against mankind in general? Isn't he deceiving even those who are not God's (2 Corinthians 4:4) so that they will end up in eternal torment in the lake of fire along with him (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46)? Does one think that Satan does this out of a love for mankind?

I believe the Tribulation includes God's wrath

It hasn't been denied that the tribulation includes God's wrath, for the very final stage of the tribulation is definitely God's wrath (Revelation 16). But God's wrath won't be directed against the faithful believers who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

[Veretax]

I will ask one question, and I'd like a Yes or No answer to that question, because without knowing your beliefs on this I'm not sure we can come to an agreement. The question is this:


Can Satan or his fallen angels do anything without the Lord allowing it to happen? Yes or No?


I maintain that the Tribulation is God's Wrath over a span of time. HIs total wrath doesn't fall until the beginning of the vials of Wrath later in Revelation, before that I believe that some will as it is written realize this is from God and will repent, but it will not be enough to stop the final judgment. Just as there was a remnant of Israel that believed the prophecy of Jeremiah and others, but a large number were wiped out by the Babylonians.

Lastly, I believe the entire tribulation is about God's final plan of judgment upon man kind. The seals clearly show the lamb (who is a picture of Christ) removing the seals and then events unfold on earth, then it shows Angels with their trumpets, blowing and each causing some catastrophe or event at God's instruction, and then you see the vials of wrath. I"m not sure what more I can say on this matter, a man convinced unwillingly will remain unconvinced, and unfortunately you have no answered any of my questions satisfactorily to lead me to change my position yet either.

[notuptome]

What is the purpose of the tribulation ie the seventieth week of Daniel? Is it simply to torment those who are on the earth? If so then I would lean toward Satan as the cause of the mayhem. If as I suspect it is to prepare the Jews for the return of their Messiah then I lean more toward Jehovah. Jehovah brings judgment upon the earth because of sin and unbelief. Historically the Jews as a people have received some rather severe correction at the hand of Jehovah. This is the time of Jacobs trouble. The church is not corrected as a group but rather individual believers are chastised to bring forth more fruit. To know who's doing the shooting you need to look at who's getting shot.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Creator]

Tribulation –means to persecute the righteous. .
Tribulation comes from the unrighteous as they persecute the Christians.

God does not persecutes the righteous. In every scripture God’s Wrath is towards the ungodly.

During the GT there are two different wraths going on.

God’s wrath against the ungodly…..and……
Satan’s wrath against the Godly


God’s Wrath
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Satan’s wrath
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time…. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



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You got it , God's Child......you seem to be one of the few that actually understand what the tribulation is all about....Satan's wrath against God's people...

Thanks for standing up for the Truth.

Creator

[Creator]

I maintain that the Tribulation is God's Wrath .....

Very serious mistake, Veretax.

The Greek word for tribulation is "thlipsis" and is NEVER translated as "wrath" in scripture....
The Greek word for 'wrath" in scripture is a totally dffererent Greek word and is never translated as tribulation.

"Thlipsis" (tribulation) is always used to mean the aflliction and persecution endured by God's people from Satan and the world system and is never translated as "wrath".

Please do a word study and you will realize how erroneous this idea is.
"God's Child" got it right from the start.

Creator

[Bible2]

I will ask one question, and I'd like a Yes or No answer to that question, because without knowing your beliefs on this I'm not sure we can come to an agreement. The question is this:

Can Satan or his fallen angels do anything without the Lord allowing it to happen? Yes or No?

No.

I maintain that the Tribulation is God's Wrath over a span of time.

That doesn't follow logically from the preceding idea, because God allowed Satan to do horrible things to righteous Job, yet those things weren't God's wrath against righteous Job.

I believe that some will as it is written realize this is from God

Note that just because it is written that people will say that the sixth seal is God's wrath (Revelation 6:17) doesn't require that it will actually be God's wrath, just as it being written that righteous Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath (Job 19:11) didn't require that it was actually God's wrath. Just as what happened to righteous Job was actually Satan's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath.

I believe the entire tribulation is about God's final plan of judgment upon man kind. The seals clearly show the lamb (who is a picture of Christ) removing the seals and then events unfold on earth, then it shows Angels with their trumpets, blowing and each causing some catastrophe or event at God's instruction, and then you see the vials of wrath.

The first four seals may not be God's judgment against the world because after they're over the martyrs in the fifth seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:9-11). Also, Jesus unsealing the seals could simply be him allowing Satan to bring about the seal events at that time, as opposed to the seal events having to be the work of God. Similarly, when angels of God subsequently sound the first six trumpets, this could simply be God allowing Satan to bring about the first six trumpets' events and destroy one-third of things (Revelation 8:7-9:19), just as subsequently, mid-tribulation, God will allow Satan to cause one-third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:4-9). And subsequently, when God's wrath comes at the very end of the tribulation (Revelation 16), it won't be directed against the righteous believers who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

[Bible2]

What is the purpose of the tribulation

The purpose of the coming tribulation with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4) could be the same as the purpose for righteous Job having to go through his sufferings, and the purpose for the righteous first-century church congregregation in Smyrna having to go through its sufferings at the hands of Satan (Revelation 2:10).

This is the time of Jacobs trouble.

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) may not be the entire tribulation, but could be only the final attack on the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5).

[Veretax]

Very serious mistake, Veretax.

The Greek word for tribulation is "thlipsis" and is NEVER translated as "wrath" in scripture....
The Greek word for 'wrath" in scripture is a totally dffererent Greek word and is never translated as tribulation.

"Thlipsis" (tribulation) is always used to mean the aflliction and persecution endured by God's people from Satan and the world system and is never translated as "wrath".

Please do a word study and you will realize how erroneous this idea is.
"God's Child" got it right from the start.

Creator

I've got two passages that refute that, while generally its talking about Israel or the Church here are two that do not seem to be:


Romans 2:1-9

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": F5 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;


This does not sound like Christians, but those who maybe attend church, but go on self seeking, living for self, and not Christ. The other one I was aware of is actually in one of the letters to Thyatira:

Rev 2:18-23

18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

In this case this is not to the unsaved but God bringing it upon people who are a part of this Church.


Now, having said this, you still seem to miss the point. The time Period of Revelation is often called the Tribulation because of all the Cataclysms, trials, and persecution that likely is going on based on Scripture. However, while it is called that, labeled that by CHristian Circles, it certainly does have God's wrath and judgment. Heck, Jesus told a parable about a farmer who boasted about his crops, so he said in his heart he'd tear down his barns and build greater, then he could relax, and Christ said the Lord said this man was a fool, and his soul was required of him that night, THat's a paraphrase, but God does judge people today, now that judgment probably pales in most comparisons to the judgments in revelation, and especially at the very end, and even the Lake of Fire, but he certainly does judge people, individuals, and certainly nations today in this present age



As to Bible 2, all I wanted was for you to admit that Satan is limited by God on what he can do. It is still Satan who chooses to do those things and I would hold him responsible, but it is important to realize that God does let things happen.

As for the 6th Seal, why can't it be God's wrath? Was it nto God's wrath when Babylon came and took ISrael Captive? Was it nod God's wrath when he struck egypt? Soddom? The Flood, God's wrath is not just reserved for judgment day at the end. That's the other point I am trying to make. It could happen now.

Now the thing that is interesting to debate, is the agents of his judgments, does God do it directly, dispatch an angel, allow a demon or the devil to do it, or does he allow man to do it. We could probably spend a whole thread just discussing that issue.

[Gods Child]

The Greek word for tribulation is "thlipsis" and is NEVER translated as "wrath" in scripture....
The Greek word for 'wrath" in scripture is a totally dffererent Greek word and is never translated as tribulation.

"Thlipsis" (tribulation) is always used to mean the aflliction and persecution endured by God's people from Satan and the world system and is never translated as "wrath".

I've got two passages that refute that, while generally its talking about Israel or the Church here are two that do not seem to be:

Romans 2:1-9

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": F5 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;


This does not sound like Christians, but those who maybe attend church, but go on self seeking, living for self, and not Christ. The other one I was aware of is actually in one of the letters to Thyatira:

Rev 2:18-23

18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

In this case this is not to the unsaved but God bringing it upon people who are a part of this Church.

You are correct about Rev6 in which you said;…
This does not sound like Christians, but those who maybe attend church, but go on self seeking, living for self, and not Christ,
but Rev 2:18-23 is describing the same type of unsaved church member when Rev 2 says; And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent…. I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation
Rev 2:18-23 "she repent not"...should show you that she is the same kind of unsaved Church member as Romans 2:1-9.

I do not see where these two scriptures refute what Creator said.

In that, I do not see where these two scriptures show any of Gods wrath towards a Saved Christians. Both Romans 2:1-9 & Rev 2:18-23 are describing the unsaved, which should show you that God only has wrath on the unsaved.

As to Bible 2, all I wanted was for you to admit that Satan is limited by God on what he can do. It is still Satan who chooses to do those things and I would hold him responsible, but it is important to realize that God does let things happen.

As for the 6th Seal, why can't it be God's wrath? Was it nto God's wrath when Babylon came and took ISrael Captive? Was it nod God's wrath when he struck egypt? Soddom? The Flood, God's wrath is not just reserved for judgment day at the end. That's the other point I am trying to make. It could happen now.

Now the thing that is interesting to debate, is the agents of his judgments, does God do it directly, dispatch an angel, allow a demon or the devil to do it, or does he allow man to do it. We could probably spend a whole thread just discussing that issue.

I am glad to hear that you understand that;
It is still Satan who chooses to do those things and I would hold him responsible,
and you understand that;
that God does let things happen

But I want to make sure that you do not hold to the popular teaching that charges God for the things that Satan does. (aka; charge God for Satan's affliction/persecution/tribulation) The teaching that Charges God for the death of a Christian, because our God is the God of life, not death.

Satan comes to steal, kill & destroy and he is of death, for which he will be judged and found guilty of his doings. God may have allowed it, but God will not be held accountable for it, because God did not do it.

When God had wrath upon Babylon, Egypt, Soddom, the flood…it is important to understand that God only has wrath on the ungodly. In every instance of God's wrath upon the ungodly, the Godly people upon the earth did not experience his wrath.

When Satan/man has wrath it is also important to understand that Satan has wrath upon the Godly. This wrath causes the outcome of affliction and persecution.
Satan's & unsaved men, Affliction/persecution is tribulation upon the true Church of God.

Creator statement was true In which Tribulation is always used to mean the affliction and persecution endured by God's people from Satan and the world system

And you are right, to hold Satan responsible for what Satan does and not charge God for the affliction/persecution/tribulation that Satan or ungodly men cause.



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[Gods Child]

What needs to be done here is to understand what is Satan’s wrath and what is God’s wrath.

We must also understand what the word tribulation means and when Satan & ungodly men cause tribulation (affliction/persecution), that we do not charge God for what Satan & ungodly men do.

Satan’s Wrath on The Saved
Why is the great tribulation called “Great”. Here is your answer;

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
and who is Satan going after?
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is why it is called “Great Tribulation”,.because Satan is cast down and has great wrath against those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So Satan will be on earth causing persecution to the Church (testimony of Jesus Christ). Likewise, we can not Charge God for this “Great Tribulation that Satan causes.

Now let’s look at the other side of the coin;

God’s Wrath on The Unsaved
God’s wrath is towards the ungodly people of the world.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 16: 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. ………14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

No where are we shown that God caused the “Great tribulation” which is persecution/affliction upon the Saved (Godly).

What we need to understand is there is a spiritual battle going on during the same time period described in the book of Revelation; Even though these things are going on at the same time, does not mean all of it is coming from God.

Time of Jacob’s Trouble runs parallel to the time that Satan is cast down and causes “Great Tribulation.
Both these events are running at the same time span and both God and Satan each have wrath going on during this time span.

In which we can see;
Gods time of “Jacob Trouble” is not caused by Satan
Satan affliction/persecution/tribulation is not caused by God.

Satan causes the “Great Tribulation” by afflicting & persecuting those that belong to God. Therefore the “Great Tribulation” wrath of Satan is not caused by God. (Even though God allowed it to happen).

What we should be able to see here is;

Satan has wrath against God’s people
God has wrath against Satan’s people

Which is a spiritual battle between each side (good & evil) and the battle is going on within the same time period.