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Thread: Bullies

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    I think a little seven year old could be physically restrained ...don't you? I restrained my raging son at that age and older and me having a bad back. Even though yes he did hurt me...(before I got him restrained) do you really think the police would understand me 'destroying him' and not put me in jail...?
    You are getting away from your own scenario. Both boys are the same age. How would YOUR child react if a child (the same age) that lives in the projects picked up a fork and attacked your child with the intent of stabbing him?

    Two of the four people he has stabbed were adults that were trying to "restrain" him. When he tried to stab a little girl at my church, the mere threat of violence was enough to immediately stop him.
    For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

    If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

    Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

  2. #32
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    Let me add to that, that I have the luxury of knowing how to disarm people with or without causing great harm. I have used that several times when dealing with weapons at church or at church functions and have not needed to harm someone. I would never, nor would I teach another to cause great harm unless there is no other choice. Children when faced with a real threat do not have the experience needed to do that.

    I actually have a collection of knives in a shadow box in my office that I have taken from people trying to harm me or other church people.
    For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

    If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

    Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Missionary View Post
    You are getting away from your own scenario. Both boys are the same age. How would YOUR child react if a child (the same age) that lives in the projects picked up a fork and attacked your child with the intent of stabbing him?

    Two of the four people he has stabbed were adults that were trying to "restrain" him. When he tried to stab a little girl at my church, the mere threat of violence was enough to immediately stop him.
    You said this happened in church so I assumed their were adults there. I am sorry you had to deal with such things. It took five adults at a school to restrain my son one time..and yes at times he used whatever he could grab as a weapon...if you aren't trained in doing this it is difficult and those teachers were not trained...I was. I could disarm him and restrain him without hurting him. But yes we are getting way, way off topic. Unless your child lives in an area where his life is in danger on a daily basis then I don't see he needs to be taught violent force...to the extreme. A well placed fist in a nose usually stops most attacks without it getting overly harmful.

    HisLeast: I think you'd be hard pressed to find people with lasting consequences to their mental health because their father taught them how to throw a punch. The consequences of years of focused bullying on the other hand are easy to see.
    That wasn't what I was talking about..I even said a good sock in the nose is one thing but you were talking about "pulverize and dislocate joints"!! That is what I was responding too...taking things too far to the extreme...why else would I have said the things I said? Not over a simple punch!

    I just want you both to realize something. Children have bad memories. When they are little you have to tell them 'don't do that' a billion times before they finally remember. Its not their fault..their little brains really don't have good short term memories. It gets really old but eventually they start remembering...it takes them a long time to understand time..days, weeks, etc. They lack as I said before, the ability to see the conquenses of their actions. They never think, 'if I pull the dogs tail what will happen?' they just pull the dogs tail.

    To expect them in the heat of a moment to remember when its ok to use a move that will really hurt someone...no matter how many times you have told them...'its ok ONLY if you are cornered and can't get help' to do this...to expect them to remember that...well its just not going to happen. They will be SO focused on being mad or upset they won't see the teacher standing three feet away and just do it...my son is 13 and I can't get him to remember how to react or what to even say when someone call him a name! Let alone something like that..

    So I am just saying be very careful what you teach and don't expect them to be able to function with an adult mind and memory at the moment its needed cause it won't happen. They will just react and do what you taught then..probably mess it up and it'll end up worse or maybe not as bad.

    My son does have permission to fight if he cannot get help. He knows how to keep someone down on the ground unable to do anything without ever throwing a punch. Not even kicking. He figured this out by himself too. Other then bent glasses no one got hurt...though they all landed in the principles office because my son didn't get help...a parent was standing outside right there watching the kids. I wasn't too upset about it at all. In this case my son wasn't being bullied but saw another kid being hit by a bigger kid and just reacted to defend the smaller one. He got in no trouble with me at all...just reminded him to get an adult next time.

    But something almost happened that day that would have been terrible..and I mean very terrible. At one point my son grabbed this boy by his hood ..he was on the ground and Nate pulled him up and started to knee him in the nose! Now if you have any knowledge of fighting you know the terrible damage this could have caused and even death!! The bones of the nose shattered and can be driven into the brain. It can be a death blow if hit hard enough and Nate was about to use the strongest muscles on his body..his leg muscles.

    I don't know where my son got his idea cause it wasn't from me...but he said when he went to lift his knee it was like his leg froze ...he couldn't move it. He swears an angel was holding his leg so he couldn't do this terrible thing.

    Scared him and me both and brought us both to tears over what could have happened and the fact God was looking out over him. The conquenses of that would have been life changing for my son and this boy...and not in a good way either....

    So I am just asking..please...please be careful what you teach your children...always remember they are children...not little adults either..

    added: You know I think I did tell Nate that move..about the knee to the nose thinking at the time he was so small he couldn't do much damage and of course I told him only if someone was really trying to hurt him..like a life and death situation. Well this happened years later and he was much bigger...also a year older then most other kids in his class cause I held him back a year in school. This boy had hit him a few time as Nate was trying to get him off the other boy..but Nate didn't even have a bruise or anything. The move was certainly not justified...yet like I said, these are children and we cannot expect them to know when to exercise such moves or depend on them to have good judgment on such things..they just can't! They are children. I really regret telling him about that move too.

    I think we have gone off topic enough...

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  4. #34
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    When I told my son to ignore the verbal jabs and walk away, he did. The others would follow him and continue on. It would escalate to pinches and punches. One boy thought it was fun to knee Matt in the groin. When Matt went to the teacher or the principal, the other boys would all stick together and lie and say Matt started it (eh? Eight to one and he "started" it??) The times I went to school only made it worse - the taunts then became, "You sissy - you have to have your mom fight your fights".

    When I taught my son to turn the other cheek, he came home bloody. He thought I had told him to NOT fight, ever.

    Our son was, quite literally, on the verse of suicide. Now - how in the world is being passive looking after my son? Isn't that what God told me to do? To take care of my family in the best way I knew how? Allowing a child to be crippled emotionally by a bully is just as bad as allowing them to get the tar beat out of them by the same bully. The scars may not be as evident but they are certainly just as real. It has to stop, somehow, someway. That way is almost always with a punch that rattles the teeth and sends the bully to their knees. That's the only language they really understand.

  5. #35
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    I think it's notable that one of the first of Jesus' teaching that comes to (at least my) mind in this situation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 5 (New International Version)

    An Eye for an Eye

    38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    is not literally the way Christ responds to the very situation described.

    Quote Originally Posted by John 18 (New International Version)
    The High Priest Questions Jesus

    19Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. 20"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said." 22When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. 23"If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" 24Then Annas sent him, still bound, to Caiaphas the high priest.
    His response was decisive, immediate and non-violent. He confronted the bully and demanded an explanation for his mistreatment, but did not seem concerned with "teaching the guy a lesson he'd never forget" or maybe he was, just not the kind of lesson I'm thinking of. Surly Jesus could have crushed his bones or worse if he choose to, but he didn't. Why? I think it's because Jesus knew he wouldn't need to. That it was God's will to be done and God's protection under which He was living. That's where His confidence came from. No? Shouldn't we all have that confidence?

    I can teach my kid to fight, but listen, I'm not pretending that my kid is perfect either. He's an 8 year old with an 8 year old's judgment. How do I know he will use that self defense appropriately? How do I know that if I do he might not decide to be the bully for a while - and I taught him how! Plus, where does it end? If I'm gonna teach him to fight in case someone tries to fight him, should I also send him to school with a knife in case someone tries to stab him, a gun? When violence was done on Jesus' behalf, he stopped it":
    Jesus Arrested

    47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. 50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[d]
    Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
    52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
    53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
    55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.
    Do I not want my boy to learn the same confidence and trust in God the Father as did Jesus?

    God bless and thanks everyone for the replies.
    "The greatest single cause of atheism in the
    world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus
    with their lips then walk out the door and deny
    Him by their lifestyles. That is what
    an unbelieving world simply
    finds unbelievable."

    ~ Brennan Manning

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy View Post
    Do I not want my boy to learn the same confidence and trust in God the Father as did Jesus?

    God bless and thanks everyone for the replies.
    You can try. That's the way I was raised too. I wouldn't say "confidence and trust in God" was the end result for me though.

  7. #37
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    HisLeast,

    I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that being bullied had the opposite effect on you? Even now?

    The other thing is that Our boy is small for eight and there are high school aged kids on that bus, even if I wanted him to fight, how effective could the boy be against someone two or three times his body weight? I want him to learn that unfair persecution is a real part of this world and that there is always somebody bigger, stronger or a better fighter than you. Only one is bigger than all others:

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel 3 (New International Version)

    The Image of Gold and the Fiery Furnace

    1 King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, ninety feet high and nine feet [a] wide, and set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. 2 He then summoned the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials to come to the dedication of the image he had set up. 3 So the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials assembled for the dedication of the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up, and they stood before it. 4 Then the herald loudly proclaimed, "This is what you are commanded to do, O peoples, nations and men of every language: 5 As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up. 6 Whoever does not fall down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace."
    7 Therefore, as soon as they heard the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp and all kinds of music, all the peoples, nations and men of every language fell down and worshiped the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
    8 At this time some astrologers [b] came forward and denounced the Jews. 9 They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, "O king, live forever! 10 You have issued a decree, O king, that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music must fall down and worship the image of gold, 11 and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. 12 But there are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego—who pay no attention to you, O king. They neither serve your gods nor worship the image of gold you have set up."
    13 Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, 14 and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? 15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?"
    16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."
    19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.
    24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?"
    They replied, "Certainly, O king."
    25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."
    26 Nebuchadnezzar then approached the opening of the blazing furnace and shouted, "Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out! Come here!"
    So Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fire, 27 and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal advisers crowded around them. They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them.
    28 Then Nebuchadnezzar said, "Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king's command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God. 29 Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way."
    30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the province of Babylon.
    That's the sort of faith I pray that I can inspire in my children. Does the world not still work like this? Will the Lord not still protect and favor those with this sort of faith if it be His will and if it's not His will, is it really going to make a difference if I teach my boy's a full-nelson or not?
    "The greatest single cause of atheism in the
    world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus
    with their lips then walk out the door and deny
    Him by their lifestyles. That is what
    an unbelieving world simply
    finds unbelievable."

    ~ Brennan Manning

  8. #38
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    I think we all need to keep in mind each situation is different in what we or our children went through and how it was handled applies to them and their situation and doesn't always fit when giving advise to others too.

    The first thing we need to always try is to contact the school though and work with them.

    Gypsy HisLeast,

    I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that being bullied had the opposite effect on you? Even now?
    Not answering for him but children and teenagers DO kill themselves all the time due to bullying... Yes it crushes their self esteem..makes them feel stupid, horrible, useless and the terror of having to face those kids day after day in school...how any child can even concentrate to learn anything having to deal with the fear of what's coming.. ..its truly hell for them.

    I agree we need to stick to the bible's guidelines on this and parents need to protect their kids..even if that means calling the police or getting a lawyer in the school (if the school can't or won't stop it) to get it stopped. Some parents have to take their kids out of school because they have gotten so depressed they are on the verge of committing suicide. Its really really bad...

    Anyway so did you talk to the bus driver or call the school? Have things gotten better yet?

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  9. #39
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    Sure moonglow, I get that and believe me I'm not trying to take this lightly or to blow it off. I don't want to ignore my responsibility as a parent to protect my children or to provide for my boys a Christian example (even if I'm still not sure what that is in this situation). I'm not a Psychologist, but my understanding of depressive disorders which are severe enough to produce the urge for suicide are characterized by the utter sense of helplessness and hopelessness. Both of which our Lord is willing to supply an endless remedy to, if we're willing to place our faith in Him. I can not simply suspend being a Christian just because it's scary. Simply because I don't like the odds. It's like saying "I'll be Christian most of them times, but when it comes to my kids, no, then I won't take the chance and have to kick butt." My boys will remember how I respond to this situation and it will ultimately (even if not today) become my legacy to them.
    "The greatest single cause of atheism in the
    world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus
    with their lips then walk out the door and deny
    Him by their lifestyles. That is what
    an unbelieving world simply
    finds unbelievable."

    ~ Brennan Manning

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy View Post
    HisLeast,

    I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that being bullied had the opposite effect on you? Even now?
    Not saying that the opposite is true, just that the expected result (confidence and trust in God the Father) didn't happen. And yes, even now in my 30's I'm dealing with residual consequences from that time in my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy View Post
    The other thing is that Our boy is small for eight and there are high school aged kids on that bus, even if I wanted him to fight, how effective could the boy be against someone two or three times his body weight? I want him to learn that unfair persecution is a real part of this world and that there is always somebody bigger, stronger or a better fighter than you. Only one is bigger than all others:
    Be that as it may, if given the choice again I would fight. If I was outsized AND outnumbered I would fight. If all I had left were the shattered and mangled bloody rags of what used to be hands, I would fight. There would be no threat nor action they could inflict that would cause me to submit. They would have to kill or maim me.

    Of all my life's regrets, I regret not fighting the most. I regret the shameful submission. I regret that it was fear of violence that ultimately brought the worst violence. If there was one chance to change anything in ones entire life it would be that. To replace weakness and fear with the fury of a perfect storm.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HisLeast View Post

    Of all my life's regrets, I regret not fighting the most. I regret the shameful submission. I regret that it was fear of violence that ultimately brought the worst violence. If there was one chance to change anything in ones entire life it would be that. To replace weakness and fear with the fury of a perfect storm.
    I get what you are saying, but do you regret these things because you didn't fight or because you let yourself be overcome by fear? Do you really wish that you had hurt these people? Even as our Lord hung dying for us, His words regarding his aggressors were those of forgiveness:

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 23 (New International Version)

    34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
    Isn't fear the enemy here? It's fear which inflicts the sort of damage that Moonglow is describing, not the bully. I'm not talking about teaching my boys to cower away from fights because they are afraid that they have no choice. I'm talking about teaching them to confidently choose not to fight because it is God's will as evidenced by Jesus and if they turn a few hearts by doing it (the bully or other on the bus) then all the more to His glory.
    "The greatest single cause of atheism in the
    world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus
    with their lips then walk out the door and deny
    Him by their lifestyles. That is what
    an unbelieving world simply
    finds unbelievable."

    ~ Brennan Manning

  12. #42
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    I think this has gone on long enough. CoffeeCat (who is a Mediator, buy the way) posted in here and asked that you ease up, get back to the Original Post and use Scripture. With a few exceptions this has not happened. The posts are still centered around whether or not we should "beat bullies to a pulp" which does not discuss the Original Post, nor does it involve the use of Scripture. In my opinion it is also a very poor witness for the non Christian people that may be viewing this thread. Hence, I am closing this thread pending Moderator review. Should you wish to make a case for the reopening of this thread you may do so in Chat to the Moderators, found here. This thread is now closed.

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