Can't Find Jesus

[DarkCrystalShard]

If time goes back infinitely then it would be impossible to get to the point in time we are at right now. The idea that the universe has 'always existed' in an impossibility.

Congratulations, you are no longer an atheist, you are agnostic, and that is definitely a step in the right direction. Now that you know there is a God I suggest you begin seeking Him out with everything you've got.

May God bless your quest, kimosabe...see you at the foot of the cross.

Onward indeed!

I'm not sure how it follows that if time is infinite that it would be impossible to get to to the time that is now.

However, the whole idea of time is funky. To the best of my knowledge, time is a measurement of motion. No motion, no time. At the point of a singularity, would there be time? Hmm.

And you and I are operating using different definitions of agnostic. I earned my bachelor's degree in philosophy, so it's really hard for me to get away from the term as it was originally defined. I know that most people mean something on par with "someone who doesn't know of any deities exist" when they say agnostic, but what it originally meant (as per Thomas Huxley) is someone who believes it is impossible to know if God/god/gods/etc existed. This meant that you could end up with agnostic Christians. One prime example is Immanuel Kant, who believed that you couldn't know if God existed, which is why faith was so profoundly important. I am not an agnostic, because I don't believe it is impossible to know God (although I suppose it might be).

[Dani H]

And you and I are operating using different definitions of agnostic. I earned my bachelor's degree in philosophy, so it's really hard for me to get away from the term as it was originally defined. I know that most people mean something on par with "someone who doesn't know of any deities exist" when they say agnostic, but what it originally meant (as per Thomas Huxley) is someone who believes it is impossible to know if God/god/gods/etc existed. This meant that you could end up with agnostic Christians. One prime example is Immanuel Kant, who believed that you couldn't know if God existed, which is why faith was so profoundly important. I am not an agnostic, because I don't believe it is impossible to know God (although I suppose it might be).

Ahh a philosophy major. I'm actually contemplating going that route. Either that, or history or humanities. Jury is still out.

As the philosopher type, you may enjoy Francis Schaeffer. Interesting stuff. Highly recommended.

As to "agnostic Christians" it's impossible to be a Christian and not know that God exists.

John 17:3

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

"know" = Gr. "eidon"

1) to see
a) to perceive with the eyes
b) to perceive by any of the senses
c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
d) to see
1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
2) to pay attention, observe
3) to see about something
a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
4) to inspect, examine
5) to look at, behold
e) to experience any state or condition
f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
a) to know of anything
b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
1) of any fact
2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
3) to know how, to be skilled in
c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

True faith, by the way, has everything to do with knowledge. Because how can we trust that which we do not know? Faith is never blind. Otherwise it would be called "assumption." Big difference, yes?

[DarkCrystalShard]

DaniHansen, the problem you have with "agnostic Christian" could be that you and Kant might be defining "knowledge" differently.

The number of definitions you get of "knowledge" as a philosophy major is rather astounding.

Good luck with deciding on a major!

[watchinginawe]

Anyway! watchinginawe, you asked me how I could seek something I don’t believe in. I’ve been thinking about your question. I have an answer, and I’ll try to convey it the best that I can.

I sometimes have what you might call, for lack of a better term, spiritual experiences. I’ve had these experiences for a long time, but I’ve been having them more frequently in the recent months. I went on a trip this weekend in hopes of having one of these experiences.

Hello DarkCrystalShard. I'm not sure what to say.

I can say that I have felt similarly to the way you described after doing cocaine. Almost exactly. I didn't think much about sin either in that condition, it actually enhanced my sinful activity without any feeling of guilt but rather of almost enlightenment.

But such is the case for chemically induced states. Are you describing a chemically induced state, either pharmaceutical or natural?

I hope not, but I mention it becuse I have been there, done that.

It is a good thing to realize that there is a spiritual. I'm not altogether sure how you reconcile that with the views you have stated in the thread. I think you could work on invalidating your current beliefs a bit if you truly believe there is a spiritual element to your being. Or perhaps you can take time here after some reflection and post "what DarkCrystalShard believes". And then contemplate "what DarkCrystalShard is truly seeking". Let's see where you are in the process.

God Bless!

[Gulah Papyrus]

I'm not sure how it follows that if time is infinite that it would be impossible to get to to the time that is now.

If time goes back infinitely then an infinite amount of time would have to have passed for us to be here now. Impossible.

You believe in a creator...you said it yourself.

So now you have a new starting point - God exists! ...now seek Him out.

[DarkCrystalShard]

Hello DarkCrystalShard. I'm not sure what to say.

I can say that I have felt similarly to the way you described after doing cocaine. Almost exactly. I didn't think much about sin either in that condition, it actually enhanced my sinful activity without any feeling of guilt but rather of almost enlightenment.

But such is the case for chemically induced states. Are you describing a chemically induced state, either pharmaceutical or natural?

I hope not, but I mention it becuse I have been there, done that.

I'm not taking any kind of drugs to get high. I am on some prescription medication that I've been on for some years, but not the kind of medication that makes you high. I have been assured by multiple doctors that is not possible to get high off of or addicted to my medication (I am somewhat addiction phobic, so I've asked about it a lot). However, it is not outside the realm of possibility that my brain is malfunctioning in some manner that is causing me to feel this way.

It is a good thing to realize that there is a spiritual.

Ehh . . . "realize" and "feel" aren't really the same thing to me.

I'm not altogether sure how you reconcile that with the views you have stated in the thread.

I have not reconciled them. That's probably the issue at hand.

I think you could work on invalidating your current beliefs a bit if you truly believe there is a spiritual element to your being. Or perhaps you can take time here after some reflection and post "what DarkCrystalShard believes". And then contemplate "what DarkCrystalShard is truly seeking". Let's see where you are in the process.

God Bless!

I think I am seeking to frame what I'm feeling. I would prefer not to frame it in terms of mental illness. If it is mental illness, I would prefer that it not go away.

If time goes back infinitely then an infinite amount of time would have to have passed for us to be here now. Impossible.

You believe in a creator...you said it yourself.

So now you have a new starting point - God exists! ...now seek Him out.

That's not what I said, and I don't see how it's impossible. Difficult for the human mind to comprehend? Certainly. But that doesn't mean it is impossible.

[Gulah Papyrus]

That's not what I said, and I don't see how it's impossible. Difficult for the human mind to comprehend? Certainly. But that doesn't mean it is impossible.

You seem to be flirting with intellectual dishonesty...are you saying that it is possible for an infinite amount of time to have passed and now we're here?

Originally Posted by Gulah Papyrus
So you believe that something created everything?

Well, either that or everything always existed.

It's okay brother, you are exactly right and it's okay to acknowledge it. If you are honestly seeking truth you are going to have to be open to it when it presents itself.

[tt1106]

I don't believe in God because I don't know how to. Maybe there's more to it. I don't know.

You said you don't believe in any God. Do you believe in the possibility of God?

You have asked for revelation, and have asked Jesus to come into your heart?

Who have you asked? Again, if you don't believe in God, then you are just talking to the air.

Jesus finds those who seek him. He talks about a Mustard seed of Faith.
Do you have a mustard seed of Faith?

Why do you want to know Jesus. You don't believe in "sin" because you don't believe in God.
What purpose does it serve to know or get to know the God of the Universe?

I would ask? If you don't believe in "sin" as an offense against God, because there isn't a God.
Have you experienced guilt? Assuming you have, and you connect it to a biological event or cause.
Let's start with right and wrong. You have a sense of right and wrong. You admit as much in your analogy of Sally.
If you expand that, I think you would find that you have an innate sense of right and wrong. For example, you can use your brain to decide right from wrong for situations that you have never encountered.
if you have felt guilt, this is based upon some sense of right and wrong.
Do you believe that?

[DarkCrystalShard]

You seem to be flirting with intellectual dishonesty...are you saying that it is possible for an infinite amount of time to have passed and now we're here?

Yes. How is that intellectually dishonest?

It's okay brother, you are exactly right and it's okay to acknowledge it. If you are honestly seeking truth you are going to have to be open to it when it presents itself.

Even if I say something created everything, that doesn't mean that something was God. Furthermore, I still don't see how it is impossible for time to be infinite. There are also other possibilities, like time having a beginning even if everything didn't (given that time is a measure of motion).

[DarkCrystalShard]

Actual infinite cannot exist in reality though...

For instance, what's infinite minus infinite? I'm to tired to expand, plus I packed my books away for reference...

think about it. it's philisophically sound, I think...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/...rticle&id=5855

I can't get into that link, and I'm not certain that the question itself isn't abusing the notion of infinity. From what I understand, infinity isn't really a number like that, so it's like asking, "What is green minus green?" Even if you can't subtract infinity from infinity, or green from green, doesn't mean they aren't real.

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57069.html

[watchinginawe]

I think I am seeking to frame what I'm feeling. I would prefer not to frame it in terms of mental illness. If it is mental illness, I would prefer that it not go away.

That is helpful. Not trying to discourage you in any way, but I think you can scratch the Christian God off of your list for potential explanations for now. The reason is that Christianity is based off of a specific need and purpose for which Jesus Christ died for. Without the realization of that need and purpose, there really isn't anything "Christian" happening. Simply put, you don't see a need for Jesus. Jesus offers this about that sentiment:

Luke 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.

28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Jesus Christ doesn't offer anything of value to you (yet) and thus you have no basis on which to form a proper relationship. But Jesus Christ is faithful and will always be ready to heal those who find themselves somewhat short of whole. I hope you will remember this as things progress with you and continue to seek.

God Bless!

[Dani H]

I can't get into that link, and I'm not certain that the question itself isn't abusing the notion of infinity. From what I understand, infinity isn't really a number like that, so it's like asking, "What is green minus green?" Even if you can't subtract infinity from infinity, or green from green, doesn't mean they aren't real.

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57069.html

Have you ever considered that dimensions exist outside of the space-time continuum and that what we know as such and can measure as such, is only part of everything that actually exists as a whole?

When we say "God is eternal" it's not just to do with time. God actually is everywhere and every-time at once, if you can somehow wrap your head around that concept. Eternity is actually inside of Him, not the other way around. As is time, and everything else. Because it all came from Him. We are currently in time. He is not because He's outside it, or it's actually in Him. You have to be willing to set linear thinking aside and encompass something a bit more far-reaching and wider in scope.

Really, philosophy and Christianity are totally compatible. All you have to do is let the mental lid blow off and think outside of things thus far considered.

[DarkCrystalShard]

That is helpful. Not trying to discourage you in any way, but I think you can scratch the Christian God off of your list for potential explanations for now. The reason is that Christianity is based off of a specific need and purpose for which Jesus Christ died for. Without the realization of that need and purpose, there really isn't anything "Christian" happening. Simply put, you don't see a need for Jesus. Jesus offers this about that sentiment:

Luke 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.

28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Jesus Christ doesn't offer anything of value to you (yet) and thus you have no basis on which to form a proper relationship. But Jesus Christ is faithful and will always be ready to heal those who find themselves somewhat short of whole. I hope you will remember this as things progress with you and continue to seek.

God Bless!

I'm not sure what to make of what you are saying to me. Wouldn't most people who identify as Christian say that if I died right now, as I am, that I would go to hell? Christians are always telling me that I need to find Jesus right now because I am currently unsaved and could die at any moment, thereby damning my soul for all eternity. How do I connect this with not being able to find Jesus because I'm not sick (in keeping with the metaphor)?

Also, there have been many times in the past where I have been significantly less than whole. I'm actually more whole right now than I've ever been in my entire life before. You see, I was abused as a child, and this left me with a host of problems. Only a few years ago I was so clinically depressed that my counselor was warning my mother that I was at real risk of committing suicide. It was really bad. I remember lying down on the floor of one of my classrooms because it felt as if gravity was pulling me towards the window rather than the floor, and I was afraid if I got up I wouldn't be able to stop myself from jumping out the window. Clearly I overcame this, but I did so without becoming a Christian. So maybe if I start having trouble in the future I will be able to find God, but I may have already gone through the worst period of my life (oh, do I ever hope that I have!).

[DarkCrystalShard]

Have you ever considered that dimensions exist outside of the space-time continuum and that what we know as such and can measure as such, is only part of everything that actually exists as a whole?

Yep. That is entirely possible. In fact, some explanations of the big bang include different dimensions smacking into each other. It's all terribly neat.

I like science.

[watchinginawe]

I'm not sure what to make of what you are saying to me. Wouldn't most people who identify as Christian say that if I died right now, as I am, that I would go to hell? Christians are always telling me that I need to find Jesus right now because I am currently unsaved and could die at any moment, thereby damning my soul for all eternity. How do I connect this with not being able to find Jesus because I'm not sick (in keeping with the metaphor)?

DarkCrystalShard, I am not wanting to discourage you. At the same time, I would not want you to be deceived into thinking that Christianity embraces just anything that makes us happy or gives us security. I like Jesus' example and won't try to replace it. Jesus can do (has done) something for you. It does no good to seek Jesus without seeking that which he can do for you. Jesus knew that the "righteous" would not accept Him for the purpose for which He came. They did not "need" Him. This would include you in your present thinking. You are self righteous. That isn't an insult, that is your self description. I will grab a quote to make sure you understand:

Once again, I get stuck. I do not agree that I have sinned against God (I don’t believe in God, and I have issues with the idea of sin). I don’t know how to turn toward Jesus.
...
When this holy feeling fills me, I am cut off from the ideas of hell and sin and the need for salvation and anything else like that; the only thing this “voice” speaks to me of is love. Even if I try to contemplate hell or sin or any such thing, it’s like the very ideas are repelled from me. When I’m experiencing this feeling, I would never describe myself as some stained and tainted creature that needs grace to be made worthy.

So it is on the above that I am wanting you to connect. You are self righteous, meaning you have self sufficiency in your righteousness and therefore have no problem to be cured.

We have had some in the forum here who describe warm feelings when they have a vision of Vishnu, etc. (I might have the spelling wrong on that). But that simply is not Christian. For now, what you are explaining to us as your experiences and your seeking to put them in a frame of reference, I think you can pretty clearly mark Jesus Christ off of the list of potential answers. That isn't to mean though that your idea of what you believe your experiences are is accurate. It is filtered by your current beliefs as I mentioned in my opening post to you. So the Holy Spirit might very well be bothering you about all of this (conviction) but when you assemble that into your current beliefs it sort of gets mispresented.

Also, there have been many times in the past where I have been significantly less than whole. I'm actually more whole right now than I've ever been in my entire life before. You see, I was abused as a child, and this left me with a host of problems. Only a few years ago I was so clinically depressed that my counselor was warning my mother that I was at real risk of committing suicide. It was really bad. I remember lying down on the floor of one of my classrooms because it felt as if gravity was pulling me towards the window rather than the floor, and I was afraid if I got up I wouldn't be able to stop myself from jumping out the window. Clearly I overcame this, but I did so without becoming a Christian. So maybe if I start having trouble in the future I will be able to find God, but I may have already gone through the worst period of my life (oh, do I ever hope that I have!).

No, we do not need to go backward or fall destitute to find God. You are right there. Nevertheless, God can be found when we are most destitute. God doesn't abandon us in our greatest times of need.

And here. Maybe the whole thing is a seed that hasn't yet germinated. In the mean time, you need truth. It won't serve you well to believe something about Jesus that just isn't so. If you want to find Jesus, you will find Him when you seek Him for the purpose He died for. It is THAT which can save you, assuming you need saved. There is a reason that we Christians refer to Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. Jesus isn't your Lord and Saviour if He hasn't bought you and saved you.

On what basis are you seeking Jesus? As one who doesn't need Jesus? That is what Jesus is expressing in the scripture I gave you. Also, as I pointed out before, since what you might be seeking is contradictory to what one might find in Jesus (what they believe will result in seeking Jesus), then a proper identification of exactly what you are seeking would be beneficial.

God Bless!