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Thread: When does the PERFECT come?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZAB View Post
    It's crazy to me how people can say things like: "speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers", and yet this statement is not found in the Bible.

    WOW!

    Z.
    So then, you believe that the canon is open, and that the Lord is revealing new doctrine and new teaching every day? Do you believe that a modern man can add to the Bible? Do you think the writings of modern men are scripture?

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    So then, you believe that the canon is open, and that the Lord is revealing new doctrine and new teaching every day? Do you believe that a modern man can add to the Bible? Do you think the writings of modern men are scripture?
    Huh? How do you get that?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    Then he is sadly misguided. From his Doctrinal Statement:

    Then he negates all he says by saying this:

    It is truly a false teaching as even if you read only one of his references--Ephesians 4:12--we are struck with just how wrong he is:

    Ephesians 4:11-12
    Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip Godís people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ.


    He is simply picking and choosing what he chooses to believe. Big mistake--and even bigger, as he is supposed to be a teacher of the word of God.
    Speaking in tongues (known languages) and miracles were for the confirmation of the words the apostles were speaking after Pentecost did indeed have merit. It was for the spreading of the Gospel at the beginning to the world. Now we have the written word and they are not needed. I think what John is saying is that these gifts were for this purpose and not for the edification of themselves which I agree. Your inferring things which are not to be meant.

    I do not see how your quote of Eph has any thing to do with your rebuttal.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    I would agree with your statement . . .

    We had the gift of prophecy in operation during our service this past Sunday. The result? All were edified and encouraged. We were uplifted in faith and had that fire in use stirred. The Lord truly blessed, but if it weren't for the obedience of His people listening to His voice it never would have taken place.

    Churches today who quench the moving of the Holy Spirit truly do not realize what blessing they are denying themselves of.
    Praise the Lord! This past Sunday we had a review of prophecies given to our body over the past 8ish years. There were a collection of 4 prophecies plus a few dreams - all by different people - they have had a great impact on the faith of our small body of believers and have kept us of one accord.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Speaking in tongues (known languages) and miracles were for the confirmation of the words the apostles were speaking after Pentecost did indeed have merit. It was for the spreading of the Gospel at the beginning to the world. Now we have the written word and they are not needed. I think what John is saying is that these gifts were for this purpose and not for the edification of themselves which I agree. Your inferring things which are not to be meant.

    I do not see how your quote of Eph has any thing to do with your rebuttal.
    Okay. Let's just go with that then . . .

    If the apostles needed confirmation for what they were preaching, why do we not need the same thing? Are we supposed to magically shove a book in someone's face and that is automatically going to confirm to them what we are preaching?

    Johnny Sinner: "Wow, I never would have believed you if not for page 94!"
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Speaking in tongues (known languages) and miracles were for the confirmation of the words the apostles were speaking after Pentecost did indeed have merit. It was for the spreading of the Gospel at the beginning to the world. Now we have the written word and they are not needed. I think what John is saying is that these gifts were for this purpose and not for the edification of themselves which I agree. Your inferring things which are not to be meant.

    I do not see how your quote of Eph has any thing to do with your rebuttal.
    Ephesians lists the gifts and then speaks regarding their use. As MacArthur is using that verse in his arsenal of scriptures to promote his false notion, then he hasn't much in the way of backing, does he?

    BTW, edification is important to God.

    I think cessationists are inferring much without merit.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Okay. Let's just go with that then . . .

    If the apostles needed confirmation for what they were preaching, why do we not need the same thing? Are we supposed to magically shove a book in someone's face and that is automatically going to confirm to them what we are preaching?

    Johnny Sinner: "Wow, I never would have believed you if not for page 94!"
    Amen! Not to mention that there are people who hear the truth from one speaking in their particular tongue--and they cannot even read! We ought to let God be God, and many need to be careful--God will not stay in that box He's been put in.


  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZAB View Post
    It's crazy to me how people can say things like: "speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers", and yet this statement is not found in the Bible.

    WOW!

    Z.
    The trinity is not in the bible either does that mean that God is not triune?
    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Okay. Let's just go with that then . . .

    If the apostles needed confirmation for what they were preaching, why do we not need the same thing? Are we supposed to magically shove a book in someone's face and that is automatically going to confirm to them what we are preaching?

    Johnny Sinner: "Wow, I never would have believed you if not for page 94!"
    It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:21 The Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the hearers is all the confirmation God is going to provide. Because the foolishness of God is wiser then men. 1 Cor 1:25

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    Amen! Not to mention that there are people who hear the truth from one speaking in their particular tongue--and they cannot even read! We ought to let God be God, and many need to be careful--God will not stay in that box He's been put in.

    It is impossible for God to invalidate His word. Use care that you do not change God into an image made like you desire Him to be.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    It is impossible for God to invalidate His word. Use care that you do not change God into an image made like you desire Him to be.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Only people who do not grasp the truth of the Word are serving to invalidate God's powerful message of truth to our hearts.

    Seems to me cessationists are rejecting how God chooses to work through His people in the world, and are cherry-picking the Scriptures to suit themselves. It is an insult to Him.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:21 The Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the hearers is all the confirmation God is going to provide. Because the foolishness of God is wiser then men. 1 Cor 1:25

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    And why wasn't "foolishness of preaching" sufficient in and of itself for the apostles or the early church in general?
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    Only people who do not grasp the truth of the Word are serving to invalidate God's powerful message of truth to our hearts.

    Seems to me cessationists are rejecting how God chooses to work through His people in the world, and are cherry-picking the Scriptures to suit themselves. It is an insult to Him.
    And it serves to show why the vast majority of the church today is so ineffective. The church as a whole whines constantly about how wicked this world is and how corrupt our society is . . . yet, what they do not realize is that a good portion of that is our own fault for not believing God.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    But how can it reach its full unity, before the last stone is in place?
    Why are you adding words? He doesn't say full unity.

    Ephesians 4:11-13 ( KJV )
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Notice Paul's words, "He gave", not He will give. It is past tense, Christ gave some men for these different offices.

    Also notice Paul says, "till we come in the unity of the faith". "We", he doesn't say until all Christians who will ever live come into the unity of the faith, he says "we", him and his readers. If you are going to apply this to Christians throughout time, you are going to have to post some Scripture showing how this applies to Christians of all times, because Paul said "we"

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    And why wasn't "foolishness of preaching" sufficient in and of itself for the apostles or the early church in general?
    The NT was in the process of being written. There was considerable effort by folks like the gnostics and them of the circumcision to subvert the scriptures. Even today there are a number of books that claim to be authentic but were not included in our modern bible.The gospel message went first to the Jew and then to the Gentiles. The message to the Jews was confirmed in the signs as told in Joel an evidence from the existing scriptures.

    Why do you feel that preaching is inadequate today? Is the arm of the Lord shortened that He cannot save?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

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