Comparisons between Israel and Christians

[Philip dT]

So regarding the part that is blinded. God blinds them - concludes them in unbelief for the sake of us Gentiles - and then send them to hell?

For the same argument, one could ask: has God kept the Gentiles outside of His covenant people, and then send them to hell?

That is why Paul says: "unsearchable are his judgments" etc. (end Rom 11). In fact, Paul discusses this exact question in Rom 9. God basically hardened their hearts after they already rejected Him. Also in Rom 11:20 "because of unbelief they were broken off"

And it is not as if all Jews were mere marionettes in the hardening, for many did believe (e.g. Nicodemus, Paul) and are still believing today. And many of them are still coming to faith in Christ. (Those that still expect a political, earthly Messiah stay disillusioned). Thats why Paul also says:

Rom 11:22-23 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief*, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

* if they believe

Cheers
Ph

[stupes]

For the same argument, one could ask: has God kept the Gentiles outside of His covenant people, and then send them to hell?

What? I don't even come close to understanding that. Paul makes it clear that Gentiles are grafted in along with Israel. And their is no blinding imparted onto the Gentiles.

That is why Paul says: "unsearchable are his judgments" etc. (end Rom 11). In fact, Paul discusses this exact question in Rom 9. God basically hardened their hearts after they already rejected Him. Also in Rom 11:20 "because of unbelief they were broken off"

Yup - and Paul warns us Gentiles to not be high minded and think more of ourselves than we ought to.

And it is not as if all Jews were mere marionettes in the hardening, for many did believe (e.g. Nicodemus, Paul) and are still believing today. And many of them are still coming to faith in Christ. (Those that still expect a political, earthly Messiah stay disillusioned). Thats why Paul also says:

The problem is that some of the disillusioned have been concluded in unbelief by God Himself. Which is why Paul tells us to have mercy on them.

Rom 11:22-23 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief*, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

* if they believe

Cheers
Ph

How can one believe while they are blinded by God? This is also stated as "God has concluded them in unbelief". So how can they believe while God is making them not believe? Are they stronger than God? Are they expected to overpower God's will? Your view makes absolutely no sense.

Paul is the remnant spoken of in the start of chapter 11. Which is natural branch that was never cut off. The remnant is still going until this day - these are the Jews that are saved and come to Christ now and in times past. Just as the unnatural branch was grafted in and is still going until this day - as Gentile Christians come to salvation. The blinded in part are the ones that shall be grafted in - they have been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles - and when God reveals Jesus to them (Zech 12), those that remain not in unbelief will be saved. But them that are blinded now have no power to believe until then.

[Philip dT]

Stupes.

As I understand it, their blindness was not merely imparted unto them without them having a choice in it:

Rom 11:20 says that they were broken off because of their unbelief. Rom 9:22 says "[God] endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." They were already "fitted to destruction" long before their harts were hardened regarding the gospel. The hardening of their harts was therefore after they already turned their back on God.

The remenent is refereing to believing Jews (Christians), not unbelieving Jews.

[stupes]

Stupes.

As I understand it, their blindness was not merely imparted unto them without them having a choice in it:

Rom 11:20 says that they were broken off because of their unbelief. Rom 9:22 says "[God] endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." They were already "fitted to destruction" long before their harts were hardened regarding the gospel. The hardening of their harts was therefore after they already turned their back on God.

Yup - absolutely true. This was the case from the moment they stepped foot out of Egypt. Except by the grace of God, to bring us to His son - us Gentiles would be no different. Which is why Paul says to not be high minded.

The remenent is refereing to believing Jews (Christians), not unbelieving Jews.

As I stated in my last post - I agree - the remnant is referring to believing Jews, like Paul, Peter, the list goes on and on. They are of the natural branch that was never cut off. The natural branch that is cut off and later grafted in are those Jews that have been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles - and remain not in unbelief at the time God removes the blindness. God has kept them in blindness so as not to shorten the time of the Gentiles. This blindness has allowed you and I to be born and come to Christ. This is why Paul tells us to have mercy on the Jews - because some are blinded for our sake. Not all will be saved in that day, but we don't know which ones.

[goykodesh]

I think we should leave judgement up to God. Our command is to love.

[Philip dT]

Yup - absolutely true. This was the case from the moment they stepped foot out of Egypt. Except by the grace of God, to bring us to His son - us Gentiles would be no different. Which is why Paul says to not be high minded.



As I stated in my last post - I agree - the remnant is referring to believing Jews, like Paul, Peter, the list goes on and on. They are of the natural branch that was never cut off. The natural branch that is cut off and later grafted in are those Jews that have been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles - and remain not in unbelief at the time God removes the blindness. God has kept them in blindness so as not to shorten the time of the Gentiles. This blindness has allowed you and I to be born and come to Christ. This is why Paul tells us to have mercy on the Jews - because some are blinded for our sake. Not all will be saved in that day, but we don't know which ones.

Then we see it very much in the same way, except for (if I understand you correctly) the fact that I understand that the time when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, is the time of the end / when Jesus comes back.

Cheers
Ph.

[stupes]

Then we see it very much in the same way, except for (if I understand you correctly) the fact that I understand that the time when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, is the time of the end / when Jesus comes back.

Cheers
Ph.

I also think the fulness of the Gentiles is when Jesus comes back - and I think Zech 12 and 13 are a vision of this. The chapters feel like an account of Armageddon from Judah's perspective. This verse stands out as to how and when the blindness is removed: "[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Chapter 13 goes on to describe how 2/3 of the people of the land will be cut off and 1/3 will be refined and saved. Is this literal? I don't know - but clearly not all will believe on Jesus - but clearly some will - for some mourn greatly for Him.

[goykodesh]

Stupes, Phillip,

Regarding the fullness of the Gentiles, you're arguments have led me to be convinced the fullness of the Gentiles will be when He returns. Thank you.