Comparisons between Israel and Christians

**John Owen** · Oct 18th 2009, 11:04 PM

In the OT, Israel is God's chosen nation, wheareas in the NT, obviously Christians are God's [chosen] people (not here for a debate of predestination!).

I've always though Israel's journey from bondage in Egypt, being led through the wilderness, to find the promised land, was symbolic of that of Christians gaining their inheritance.

I'm sure I found a good verse on this before, but I can't find it.

Could anyone help me out here?

**SemperReformanda** · Oct 19th 2009, 02:05 AM

Good name, buddy!

Maybe what you're looking for is Romans 4:

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be." He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
(Rom 4:16-25 ESV)

Or Galatians 3:

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
(Gal 3:5-9 ESV)

These speak in more systematic categories, but if you are after something a little more metaphorical, check out 1 Corinthians 10:

I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
(1Co 10:1-8 ESV)

Or 1 Peter 1:

And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
(1Pe 1:17-19 ESV)

One of the great things you can meditate on is the temptation of Christ - he was driven out into the wilderness, being tempted for forty days, but instead of failing, he overcame Satan, and proved himself to be the true Israel. Now we are in him, united with him by the Spirit, joined so that we can too now embody the true chosen people through his victory.

Sweet!

***crossnote*** · Oct 19th 2009, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by John Owen

In the OT, Israel is God's chosen nation, wheareas in the NT, obviously Christians are God's [chosen] people (not here for a debate of predestination!).

I would be very careful here and would make a very careful re-reading of Romans 11.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(Rom 11:25-31)

***thepenitent*** · Oct 19th 2009, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by crossnote

I would be very careful here and would make a very careful re-reading of Romans 11.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(Rom 11:25-31)

I don't think Romans 11:25-31 changes his original assertion. Even under these verses the path for Jews to salvation will always be Christ. Being a son of Abraham in and of itself means nothing. ("God could turn these stones into sons of Abrahm") -Christians are now God's chosen people, whether Jew or Greek. I do think Romans 11 does tell, however, that once the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, there will be a mass conversion to Christ among Jews.

**BroRog** · Oct 19th 2009, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by thepenitent

I don't think Romans 11:25-31 changes his original assertion. Even under these verses the path for Jews to salvation will always be Christ. Being a son of Abraham in and of itself means nothing. ("God could turn these stones into sons of Abrahm") -Christians are now God's chosen people, whether Jew or Greek. I do think Romans 11 does tell, however, that once the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, there will be a mass conversion to Christ among Jews.

Christians are God's chosen persons; the sons of Jacob are God's chosen people.

goykodesh · Oct 19th 2009, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by thepenitent

I don't think Romans 11:25-31 changes his original assertion. Even under these verses the path for Jews to salvation will always be Christ. Being a son of Abraham in and of itself means nothing. ("God could turn these stones into sons of Abrahm") -Christians are now God's chosen people, whether Jew or Greek. I do think Romans 11 does tell, however, that once the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, there will be a mass conversion to Christ among Jews.

Um......Jews don't 'convert' to accept their own Messiah. They continue in their fath with Him as the head.

***thepenitent*** · Oct 20th 2009, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by goykodesh

Um......Jews don't 'convert' to accept their own Messiah. They continue in their fath with Him as the head.

In which case they have converted from non-belief to belief.

***crossnote*** · Oct 20th 2009, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by thepenitent

I don't think Romans 11:25-31 changes his original assertion. Even under these verses the path for Jews to salvation will always be Christ. Being a son of Abraham in and of itself means nothing. ("God could turn these stones into sons of Abrahm") -Christians are now God's chosen people, whether Jew or Greek. I do think Romans 11 does tell, however, that once the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, there will be a mass conversion to Christ among Jews.

As Rom11 says we (gentiles) are grafted in from a wild olive tree whereas the Jews are natural branches, this flies in the face of the posters original statement...
"In the OT, Israel is God's chosen nation, wheareas in the NT, obviously Christians are God's [chosen] people ".

**Sirus** · Oct 20th 2009, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by goykodesh

Um......Jews don't 'convert' to accept their own Messiah. They continue in their fath with Him as the head.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

**stupes** · Oct 20th 2009, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by crossnote

As Rom11 says we (gentiles) are grafted in from a wild olive tree whereas the Jews are natural branches, this flies in the face of the posters original statement...
"In the OT, Israel is God's chosen nation, wheareas in the NT, obviously Christians are God's [chosen] people ".

I don't get why that flies in the face of the OP. Can you explain?

**SemperReformanda** · Oct 20th 2009, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by crossnote

As Rom11 says we (gentiles) are grafted in from a wild olive tree whereas the Jews are natural branches, this flies in the face of the posters original statement...
"In the OT, Israel is God's chosen nation, wheareas in the NT, obviously Christians are God's [chosen] people ".

I think there are some crossed wires here.

The NT is pretty clear that believers in the New Covenant are just that - believers in a covenant which was given to the Jews, but in turn brings the fulness of those who are outside in. I doubt that the OP was saying that there is no continuity between the people of God in the OT and the NT, but if he was, I'll heartily disagree.

**Philip dT** · Oct 20th 2009, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by crossnote

As Rom11 says we (gentiles) are grafted in from a wild olive tree whereas the Jews are natural branches, this flies in the face of the posters original statement...
"In the OT, Israel is God's chosen nation, wheareas in the NT, obviously Christians are God's [chosen] people ".

As I understand Rom 11, the Jews have been cut off to make room for the new branches that stems from the root: Christ:

Rom 11:19-20 "You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. (20) Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear."

So, they have been natural branches, but they are broken off so that believers may be grafted in. So they are not natural branches any more.

**stupes** · Oct 20th 2009, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Philip dT

As I understand Rom 11, the Jews have been cut off to make room for the new branches that stems from the root: Christ:

Rom 11:19-20 "You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. (20) Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear."

So, they have been natural branches, but they are broken off so that believers may be grafted in. So they are not natural branches any more.

But He says the Jews still are the natural branches and will be grafted BACK in:
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

goykodesh · Oct 20th 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by thepenitent

In which case they have converted from non-belief to belief.

You mean they didn't believe in God? Really?

goykodesh · Oct 20th 2009, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sirus

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Your KJV has led you off an a bit of a tangent. The Greek word KJV translates to 'convert' is 'epestrafo.' Epestrafo is also used in the Septuagint. It is translated from the Hebrew word "shuwb." It means 'to turn back', or 'to return.' The writers of the Septuagint used the Greek term 'proselyte' for 'convert.' By the first century 'circumcision' became a coined term also used for 'proselyte' - in this context the sum of the combined rituals of converting a Gentile into Judasim.

At any rate, 'epestrafo' in this context does not mean 'convert' in the context you're suggesting.

That is why it is written:

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

One cannot be 'converted' into their own religion, however one definately can 'turn back' to the LORD.