God is in Charge, not in Control? Bill Johnson

[penofareadywriter]

Wow.
God is in handcuffs, and our prayers are the keys that open them so He may act???

How large man has become in his own eyes,
and how small we have made God.

I agree with the good woman above, but let me also say that I find so many things wrong with that video.
Primarily, it’s not Biblical.
To say that God is incapable (or to imply it, which it seem like he is) of stepping into his creation without it being Armageddon is ludicrous.
He says, when the Director steps on stage the play is over. I’m so sad that we have shrunk down God to a small entity that he is now incapable of acting on his creation unless we somehow empower him to do so.
What a mockery of God. How tragic that in thousands of years we have not learned the lessons of our forefathers. Fear God. Fear his wrath. Fear his justice.
God interacted with the creation long before the incarnation of Jesus and I see no reason why he still cannot.
The part about us taking off the cuffs of God is astonishing. I would find it incredible if when I did, God said, My child, you thought too highly of me and you feared me too much. I specifically limited myself so you guys could run the Earth, calling me down when you needed me. But thanks for the props.
Is this the lesson of the video to us that God is bound by our choices? That God can act when we invoke Him.
What a shame.

Hear was referring to the great John Wesley's saying..."God does nothing but in answer to prayer."

And He was not saying that if God stepped on the stage, Armageddon is here. He is saying that if God was to just start micro-managing peolpe...then they no longer have free will.

We are not making man bigger than God...we are honestly trying to take God at His word...just as you are. So can we turn down the harshness please.

[ZAB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBnGE9pmkXw

I would love to here every ones thoughts on this one!

(Its only 3 mins long)

Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Sin, trial, tragedy and afflictions are simply a TOOL in the hand of God to perfect His people (Rom_8:35-39, Rom_5:3-4; Gen_50:20; Deu_8:2-3, Deu_8:16; Psa_46:1-2; Jer_24:5-7; Zec_13:9; 2Co_4:15-17, 2Co_5:1; Phi_1:19-23; 2Th_1:5-7; Heb_12:6-12; Jam_1:3-4; 1Pe_1:7-8; Rev_3:19)

Z.

[penofareadywriter]

Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Sin, trial, tragedy and afflictions are simply a TOOL in the hand of God to perfect His people (Rom_8:35-39, Rom_5:3-4; Gen_50:20; Deu_8:2-3, Deu_8:16; Psa_46:1-2; Jer_24:5-7; Zec_13:9; 2Co_4:15-17, 2Co_5:1; Phi_1:19-23; 2Th_1:5-7; Heb_12:6-12; Jam_1:3-4; 1Pe_1:7-8; Rev_3:19)

Z.

Yes...God can "work" a tragedy out for the good of a believer if they will run to God.
But this verse by default excludes the them that DON"T love God...right? So this verse is not a proof text that God is secretly "controlling" or have a purpose behind every tragedy.

[Longsufferer]

A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 3:27
Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:
John 19:11

[penofareadywriter]

A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 3:27
Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:
John 19:11

Right...free will is power that is given to us. What we DO with that power is a different story and is not in the scope of this text.

[ZAB]

Yes...God can "work" a tragedy out for the good of a believer if they will run to God.
But this verse by default excludes the them that DON"T love God...right? So this verse is not a proof text that God is secretly "controlling" or have a purpose behind every tragedy.

God allows in His wisdom what He could easily prevent in His power. Man's free will plays a role too.

Z.

[John146]

Does not Frame quote Open Theists? And I do plan on reading books by Open Theists at some point. It doesn't follow that you have to read books by Open Theists in order to read a response to the subject.

Actually, it does follow. You should know what they actually claim to believe instead of relying on someone who opposes their belief to tell you what they believe. The opponent of a belief is more likely to misrepresent the belief they oppose than give you an accurate portrayal of it.

If the crucifixion is ordained by God, meaning that God has made that event settled in the future, does that not also mean that God has ordained the events leading up to the crucifixion?

To some extent, I suppose. But does that mean He ordains them randomly or based on His foreknowledge? For example, was Judas Iscariot chosen before the foundation of the world or from birth to be the one to betray Jesus or did God know that because of the decisions Judas would make, he would be a good one to choose to help fulfill His plan of having Christ die for the sins of the world? In other words, if Judas had made different decisions than he made before that occurred, couldn't God have chosen someone else to be the one who He knew would betray Jesus?

While it was God's will for Jesus to be rejected and crucified, it wasn't His will for Jerusalem as a whole to reject Jesus, as we can see from Matthew 23:37-38. So, God does control some things and other things He does not. But even when He is not controlling things He is still in charge or in control, however you want to put it. Nothing happens without Him allowing it to happen.

[John146]

Right...free will is power that is given to us. What we DO with that power is a different story and is not in the scope of this text.

I agree. Well said.

[John146]

Can anyone explain how God is in complete control where such a statement doesn't result in God being the controller of man's sin?

No, I'm sure no one can explain that.

If God can't even tempt someone how can anyone state that He controls mankind to sin? If He doesn't control mankind to sin then He is not in complete control.

Yep. Staying with the theme of this thread, Him not being in complete control (controlling everything) does not mean He is not completely in charge (sovereign ruler over all).

It's really not that difficult of a concept to understand. If God is in "complete" control then He must, by the very definition, be forcing mankind's sin.

This does not fit with what the word tells us about our Lord.

I agree.

[John146]

Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Sin, trial, tragedy and afflictions are simply a TOOL in the hand of God to perfect His people (Rom_8:35-39, Rom_5:3-4; Gen_50:20; Deu_8:2-3, Deu_8:16; Psa_46:1-2; Jer_24:5-7; Zec_13:9; 2Co_4:15-17, 2Co_5:1; Phi_1:19-23; 2Th_1:5-7; Heb_12:6-12; Jam_1:3-4; 1Pe_1:7-8; Rev_3:19)

Z.

Do people just automatically love God with no choice of their own? I don't believe so. That would mean people are nothing more than puppets. How can puppets love anyone? Notice that He doesn't work all things together for good for all people, but just for those who love Him.

[blessedmommyuv3]

I think both sides of these discussions often fall into a ditch. Here's one verse where God said he looked for someone that would pray so that he would act differently. But upon not finding an intercessor, he destroyed the land.

Ezek 22:29-31
9 "The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice. 30 "I searched for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one. 31 "Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord God.
NASU

Is God handcuffed? No. But intercessors can and do influence him and he desires to be influenced. We see the same thing with God and Moses. Moses stood in the gap with Israel and God spared them.

Ps 106:23
23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them,
Had not Moses His chosen one stood in the breach before Him,
To turn away His wrath from destroying them.
NASU

So not only do we have scripture that says Moses prayed for Israel when God would have destroyed them. But we have it confirmed in the Psalms that God would have done so had Moses not intervened.

God is not handcuffed. But man can influence God because God wants to be influenced by man. It doesn't make man higher than God at all.

People sometimes say that God will answer prayers according to the will of man, but that is a wrong thinking too. It seems to me that there are things God wants to do but will not do without someone praying about it (like show mercy in the scriptures above).

Great thoughts, Mark.
Don't you think, though, that we are inspired to pray by the Holy Spirit living within us?
I believe that just as God initially grants to us the faith necessary to believe in Him,
He prompts us to pray for situations which He intends to act upon. If we are praying according to His will, His answer to our prayers is always in alignment with what He purposes to do.

In Christ,
Jen

[Brother Mark]

Great thoughts, Mark.
Don't you think, though, that we are inspired to pray by the Holy Spirit living within us?
I believe that just as God initially grants to us the faith necessary to believe in Him,
He prompts us to pray for situations which He intends to act upon. If we are praying according to His will, His answer to our prayers is always in alignment with what He purposes to do.

In Christ,
Jen

Yes, partly. However, the verse I quoted seems to go against that package kind of deal you are mentioning. I'll post it again.

Ezek 22:30-31
30 "I searched for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one. 31 "Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord God.
NASU

He wanted to find someone to stand in the gap but he didn't find anyone. That's why I think both sides get in ditches. Scripture says God can change his mind because of the prayer of men. Yet, many won't believe the dozens of verses that state he does change his mind. Moses changed God's mind with a prayer when he stood in the gap. There are times when God won't change his mind as he illustrated with Saul. It was done and nothing was going to change that. Then there are times when he desires to show mercy and he looks for someone to stand in the gap but finds no one as the verse above states. Then there are times when he is going to destroy a group and finds someone standing in the gap, as he did with Moses, and stays his hand.

Why do we need to explain such verses away? Many try to explain away the scriptures where God chooses. Others try to explain away the scripture where God can be influenced by man. Why not believe the whole counsel? Do we really need to try and explain away the scriptures to fit into our understanding? Is it not better to believe it and know that we are limited in our understanding till such a time as God illumines us? Scripture does teach that our prayers influence God. He also says that "we have not because we ask not", indicating that God is simply waiting to be influenced by our asking.

[BroRog]

Yes...God can "work" a tragedy out for the good of a believer if they will run to God.
But this verse by default excludes the them that DON"T love God...right? So this verse is not a proof text that God is secretly "controlling" or have a purpose behind every tragedy.

You haven't given due weight to the phrase "all things".

[penofareadywriter]

You haven't given due weight to the phrase "all things".

But the "all things" is limited to a group..namly those that love God.

[BrckBrln]

If you don't mind, I have another question relating to anthropomorphic language. Take this verse, for instance.

It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. Exodus 31:17

Not only does the verse say God rested but that he was refreshed. Do you take this literally? If you don't, what does this teach us about God?