The fourth beast kingdom - The miry clay verses the potter's clay

[T W Taylor]

Hello Beckrl, I am putting all the verses in Daniel 7 having to do with this beast so maybe WE can understand if this is Constantine. I have thought for a long time that Constantine era was where the Roman, (legs of iron) started changing into the Roman - Christian - ten tribes of Israel (iron -clay) era of the Roman Empire. Counting it as 5 don’t really matter that much. You could say, the 4th kingdom just took some partners of Clay and became a weaker, mixed kingdom, -- but still Roman.

Quote - I'm not sure; If the ten are in succession then another comes after them, would that also be in succession making him the eleventh. Then Constantine wouldn't be the one.
Why??? I think he fulfilled the prophecy.

Verse 24 says this horn came after them (the ten) that would make him eleven. I am fairly sure there were a lot more than ten emperors before Constantine, There were 4 Emperors in power when Constantine took power, one died, Constantine defeited the other three.

Da 7:7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

Da 7:8 "I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Da 7:19 "Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet;

Da 7:20 "and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Da 7:23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.

Da 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.

Da 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Revelation 17 is talking about the same kingdoms as Daniel 2 and 7 only goes back before Babylon and take in Egypt and Assyria. The one that is, is Rome #6 (legs of Iron), The one that has not yet come is #7, the Beast (Rome) mixed with the ten horns, or (ten toes -- Rome mixed with clay - Israel) The 8th is the 7th coming again.

Re 17:10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

Re 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

Re 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

Re 17:13 "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

Anything else about Constantine will help. TWTaylor

[Beckrl]

Hello Beckrl, I am putting all the verses in Daniel 7 having to do with this beast so maybe WE can understand if this is Constantine. I have thought for a long time that Constantine era was where the Roman, (legs of iron) started changing into the Roman - Christian - ten tribes of Israel (iron -clay) era of the Roman Empire. Counting it as 5 don’t really matter that much. You could say, the 4th kingdom just took some partners of Clay and became a weaker, mixed kingdom, -- but still Roman.

Quote - I'm not sure; If the ten are in succession then another comes after them, would that also be in succession making him the eleventh. Then Constantine wouldn't be the one.
Why??? I think he fulfilled the prophecy.

Verse 24 says this horn came after them (the ten) that would make him eleven. I am fairly sure there were a lot more than ten emperors before Constantine, There were 4 Emperors in power when Constantine took power, one died, Constantine defeited the other three.

The eleventh emperor was Domitian. He subdue three kings. Galba, Otho and Vitellius. That is only one of many prophecy he fulfills. I can add more later if you are interested.

Da 7:7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

Da 7:8 "I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Da 7:19 "Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet;

Da 7:20 "and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Da 7:23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.

Da 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.

Da 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Revelation 17 is talking about the same kingdoms as Daniel 2 and 7 only goes back before Babylon and take in Egypt and Assyria. The one that is, is Rome #6 (legs of Iron), The one that has not yet come is #7, the Beast (Rome) mixed with the ten horns, or (ten toes -- Rome mixed with clay - Israel) The 8th is the 7th coming again.

Re 17:10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

Re 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

Re 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

Re 17:13 "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

Anything else about Constantine will help. TWTaylor

Take a closer look at Domitian and let me know what you think.

[T W Taylor]

Hello Beckel, I have a problem, (11 from where.) where do we start? Domitian was 15 from Augustus, 11 from Gaius. (just counting backwards). I found another site that says Domitian was 11 from Augustus. Constantine is 12 of British Emperors. (I thought I had it) Constantine is 10 or 11 from when Diocetian split the Empire into east and west. Constantine Reunited the Empire. Domitian and Constantine both had 10 emperors before them. I just don’t know what 10 Daniel is talking about, 10 of the worst, (they were all BAD)

Da 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.
Da 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Quote - The eleventh emperor was Domitian. He subdue three kings. Galba, Otho and Vitellius. That is only one of many prophecy he fulfills. I can add more later if you are interested.

I find that Domitian didn’t sudue or kill these three Emperors.

He (Galba) was met by a troop of Otho's cavalry and was killed

Two weeks shy of his (Otho) thirty-seventh birthday, on 16 April 69, he took his own life.

Vitellius disguised himself in dirty clothing and hid in the imperial doorkeeper's quarters, leaning a couch and a mattress against the door for protection. Dragged from his hiding place by the Flavian forces, he was hauled off half-naked to the Forum, where he was tortured, killed, and tossed into the Tiber.

So back to Constantine. Constantine fulfills all of the prophecy of Daniel 7:24 and 25, except, I still haven’t figured out who the ten Emperors are before him.

Da 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.
Da 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Maximian was captured and reproved for his crimes. Constantine granted some clemency, but strongly encouraged his suicide. In July 310, Maximian hanged himself.

the force of a Constantinian cavalry charge; they also broke ranks and fled to the river. Maxentius rode with them, and attempted to cross the bridge of boats, but he was pushed by the mass of his fleeing soldiers into the Tiber, and drowned
Maxentius' body was fished out of the Tiber and decapitated. His head was paraded through the streets for all to see.

in 325 Constantine accused Licinius of plotting against him and had them both arrested and hanged; Licinius's son (the son of Constantine's half-sister) was also eradicated.[191] Thus Constantine became the sole emperor of the Roman Empire.

We find Constantine did subdue, kill, or pluck out, three Emperors.
Constantine was different from all other Emperors, because he was the first Christian Emperor

quote - Constantine is perhaps best known for being the first Christian Roman emperor;

Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, Constantine also persecuted the Saints.

quote - The emperor saw it as his duty to ensure that God was properly worshippedin his empire, and what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine

quote - From Catholic Encyclopedia,
Evidently Constantine was also capable of persecuting Christians, if they were deemed to be the 'wrong type of Christians'.

Constantine also change times and law

Constantine also enforced the prohibition of the First Council of Nicaea against celebrating Easter on the day before the Jewish Passover

quote -326, Constantine had his eldest son Crispus, by Minervina, seized and put to death by "cold poison" at Pola (Pula, Croatia).[212] In July, Constantine had his wife, the Empress Fausta, killed at the behest of his mother, Helena

quote - new Constantine". Ten emperors, including the last emperor of Byzantium, carried the name. - This is 10 after Constantine.

quote - From Catholic Encyclopedia,
Catholic historians presented Constantine as an ideal ruler
Latin Rite Catholics considered it inappropriate that Constantine was baptized only on his death-bed and by a bishop of questionable orthodoxy, viewing it as a snub to the authority of the Papacy

Constantine Fulfills this scripture, although I don’t know where to start counting, There were 11 Emperors that were first rulers of Briton, there were 10 or 11 from when the split of the Empire, (east and west) until Constantine, - that he unified.

Constantine also change times and law, Causing Christians to break God’s Commandments.

Constantine changed the day of worship of God from the Sabbath to Sunday, changing God’s law, and the ten commandments.

Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest

In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the "venerable day of the sun", referencing the esoteric eastern sun-worship

He changed times, (or seasons) like, Passover to Easter.

Constantine changed the day God said to worship Him on the Passover to another day that would never be on the day of Passover and changed the name to Easter.

quote - Some argue that Easter is little more than an adaptation of a pagan fertility festival and has little to do with Christian tradition.
There is little question that many symbols of Easter have been adopted from various cultures. But this is true for almost all Christian symbols, including the cross (the sign of the fish is the most unique and original Christian symbol).
Quote from, Dating Easter
Passover vs Easter Dates
By N.S.Gill
In addition to the perfectly reasonable desire to keep the memorial on the same day of the week as Christ's Resurrection, there were other, ignoble motives for separating the Christian celebration from the Jewish holy day. In his letter to those not at the Nicene Council, the Emperor Constantine spells out some of what we would refer to as anti-semitism:
"Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."
- Eusebius The Life of Constantine
According to the Jewish calendar, it was possible for a year to have 13 months. Evidently, the Passover month of Nisan was the beginning of the religious year, for Eusebius tells us that the Jews celebrated Passover twice in some years, an indication (to Eusebius) that they didn't know what they were doing:
"They do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error."
- Eusebius The Life of Constantine
Other Reasons for Easter's Date
In "Another View of Easter and Passover," American Sociological Review, Vol. 49, No. 4. (Aug., 1984), John Heeren writes that Jewish leaders supported "the idea that Passover (Nisan 14) should occur after the vernal equinox" and that the Samaritans celebrated Passover after the vernal equinox. The dating of Easter could have been intended to include pagans rather than exclude Jews. it would be fitting for Constantine, as a sun-worshiping pagan, to have selected the vernal equinox, representing the rebirth of the sun, in the same season as the blood-letting pagan Hilaria and Taurobolium festivals.

Le 23:3 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
Le 23:4 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.
Le 23:5 'On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover.
Le 23:6 'And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
Le 23:7 'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.
Le 23:8 'But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.' "

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.


I don’t know how we should count, a time, times and a ½ a time, But if we count a time as 700 years, == It would be 1,750 year. If you count 1750 years from the year of Constantine’s birth in 272 -- It comes to the same year as time, times, and a half a time in Daniel 12:7, counted by 1000 years for a time, = 2,500 years, counted from that year 522BC. -- You can also come to the same year, - when you add the 1,335 years, in Daniel 12:12 to the year the Abomination of Desolation was set up in 687AD. Maybe you can figure out what it means.

Da 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Da 12:12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

This is too long already, It will be Boring, TWTaylor

[Beckrl]

I though it best to start a new thread on this subject.
http://bibleforums.org/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=12