The fourth beast kingdom - The miry clay verses the potter's clay

[ross3421]

There have been a lot of threads lately TRYING to link Rome to the fourth beast. However the fourth beast is a demonic kingdom of Satan upon the earth in the final days.

The miry clay verses the potter's clay

Miry clay and the ten toes does not represent a revived Roman Empire. It represents the future demonic kingdom which will pervade the earth prior to the coming of Christ.

Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided

Potter's Clay and Iron do not mix, but they will be divided from each other. Why can't they mix? Side note, try at home to mix a clump of clay with iron it will neither mix nor stick to the metal.

Potter's clay is a reference to believers, God is the potter, we are the clay....

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

So there is a prophetic understanding in which Daniel is saying here. The fourth kingdom is of iron and clay as we shall see part "potter's and part "miry". The potter's clay is that part which shall not mix.

It is divided because under the fourth beast when a person of fierce countenance arises (little horn) people need to chose whom they will serve; God or mammon, Mark or no Mark, beast or Christ. The potter's clay represent those who will not mix with this system and fornicate with this whore nor receive his mark The potter's clay is the believers which shall be on earth during this time. This clay cannot mix.

Now, let's go to the clay which shall mix......

Dan 2:41 but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Miry - full of, or having the nature of mire; swampy. covered with mire; muddy. "miry clay" or better termed "mud" can mix and stick to iron. You cannot mold mud thus this is not molded by God.

So where does this "miry" clay come from? The pit.

Ps 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

Their father is the devil and molded after him....

Now we see this "miry" clay mingle with the seed of men. Interesting. The understanding is that this is the demonic indwelling; miry clay from the pit + the seed of men.

Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves * with the seed of men:


"As in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be".


In Christ, Mark.

[Beckrl]

So what would be your conclusion? That the iron was the Roman empire and the clay was the Pharisees

[T W Taylor]

Hello Ross3421,
The clay and the iron are already mixed, and are already not sticking together, A year or so ago when They (The E U) wrote their, (I think) constitution, and had to have a vote on it. Even some that wrote it Like France (I think Ruben) voted it down. I find the sons of Israel still use a Hebrew word to say who they are. Ish - that means man. France- Frank-ish Jew-ish Eng-ish Brit-ish Scot-ish Ire-ish Swed-ish Iceland-ish Dain-ish Spain-ish I’m sure you can think of more, The only one that I can think of that don’t work is Turkey, Turk-ish (Esau, brother of Israel) TWTaylor

[ross3421]

So what would be your conclusion? That the iron was the Roman empire and the clay was the Pharisees

The iron is the forth kingdom, a kingdom without name. It is a beast kingdom, the kingdom of Satan upon the earth.

ala kingdom of God is also without name (ie country ect....)

The potter's clay are those as I mention who oppose this kingdom. The miry clay are those which align themselves with this kingdom

[Beckrl]

The iron is the forth kingdom, a kingdom without name. It is a beast kingdom, the kingdom of Satan upon the earth.

ala kingdom of God is also without name (ie country ect....)

The potter's clay are those as I mention who oppose this kingdom. The miry clay are those which align themselves with this kingdom

True, the fourth kingdom is without a name, but could be seen in history as the next great kingdom after the third kingdom. Which has been given as Greece (leopard, Daniel 7:4-7) Which the first is Babylon.

[Romulus]

If we look at Daniel's four Kingdoms in clear succession as it is historically, we can see the following:

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome

I don't believe their is any warrant to suddenly stop when history is clear that these were the four great Kingdoms that existed. Why leave off Rome? Rome was one of the greatest empires that existed, why stop at Medo-Persia or Greece?

There is no future Kingdom. God's Kingdom was the last and it was signified by the stone as crushing all the others. God's Kingdom now reigns making all others past, present, future obsolete. Scholars are generally in agreement that the 4 Kingdoms above are what was mentioned in Nebuchadnezzar's statue and Daniel's four beasts.

As for the clay mixed in with iron. Rome was the empire of iron. For the answer of what was the clay, there is only one nation ever referred to scripturally as "clay".

Jeremiah 18

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

How was Israel mixed with Rome? If we simply look at the New Testament we can see that greatest persecutors of 1st century Christianity was indeed Rome and Israel. Israel stoned the prophets sent to her and rejected her Messiah when Pilate told them here is you King and they shouted, we have no King but Caesar. First Century Israel(not the remnant) was in league with Rome since Christ's time and throughout the New testament we can see that both Israel and Rome tried to eliminate Christianity through the murder of the prophets and apostles. Israel was judged in it's destruction in 70 A.D.

The picture of iron mixed with clay can only be seen when we keep it in it's proper context, the first century. In the first century, did not the one unshakable Kingdom arrive forever as shown in the rock? Christ is reigning now and forever.

Just my opinion.

[T W Taylor]

Hello Romulus, You are correct with most of your post, there are about three things that we should think about.

Quote - If we look at Daniel's four Kingdoms in clear succession as it is historically, we can see the following:

You have these four kingdoms correct, but we need to count them again
You have it correct, but it looks like the feet are another kingdom.

Da 2:32 (!) This image's head was of fine gold, (2)his breast and his arms of silver, his (3)belly and his thighs of brass,
Da 2:33 (4)His legs of iron, his (5) feet part of iron and part of clay.


You are correct here also,

Quote - As for the clay mixed in with iron. Rome was the empire of iron. For the answer of what was the clay, there is only one nation ever referred to scripturally as "clay".
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

You are correct about Israel. Why are you Now you are talking about Judah.

Quote - How was Israel mixed with Rome? If we simply look at the New Testament we can see that greatest persecutors of 1st century Christianity was indeed Rome and Israel. Israel stoned the prophets sent to her and rejected her Messiah when Pilate told them here is you King and they shouted, we have no King but Caesar. First Century Israel (not the remnant) was in league with Rome since Christ's time and throughout the New testament we can see that both Israel and Rome tried to eliminate Christianity through the murder of the prophets and apostles. Israel was judged in it's destruction in 70 A.D.

Judah is one of the 13 tribes of Israel that will not be a part of those CLAY TOES
Thank you, Hope I’ve been of some help. TWTaylor

[Beckrl]

Hello Romulus, You are correct with most of your post, there are about three things that we should think about.

Quote - If we look at Daniel's four Kingdoms in clear succession as it is historically, we can see the following:

You have these four kingdoms correct, but we need to count them again
You have it correct, but it looks like the feet are another kingdom.

Da 2:32 (!) This image's head was of fine gold, (2)his breast and his arms of silver, his (3)belly and his thighs of brass,
Da 2:33 (4)His legs of iron, his (5) feet part of iron and part of clay.

How many kingdoms?

Daniel 2

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 7
3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

You are correct here also,

Quote - As for the clay mixed in with iron. Rome was the empire of iron. For the answer of what was the clay, there is only one nation ever referred to scripturally as "clay".
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

You are correct about Israel. Why are you Now you are talking about Judah.

Quote - How was Israel mixed with Rome? If we simply look at the New Testament we can see that greatest persecutors of 1st century Christianity was indeed Rome and Israel. Israel stoned the prophets sent to her and rejected her Messiah when Pilate told them here is you King and they shouted, we have no King but Caesar. First Century Israel (not the remnant) was in league with Rome since Christ's time and throughout the New testament we can see that both Israel and Rome tried to eliminate Christianity through the murder of the prophets and apostles. Israel was judged in it's destruction in 70 A.D.

Judah is one of the 13 tribes of Israel that will not be a part of those CLAY TOES
Thank you, Hope I’ve been of some help. TWTaylor

One of the 13?

[T W Taylor]

Hey Beckrl, YES how many are there? I always heard there were 12, Maybe we should count them! Lets go to Revelation 7
Re 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
(1) Re 7:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
(2) of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
(3) of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
(4) Re 7:6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
(5) of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
(6) of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
(7) Re 7:7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
(8) of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
(9) of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
(10) Re 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
(11) of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
(12) of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
(13) --- Where is DAN He is a son too
TWTaylor note I started to go to Genesis, But I think there are 14

[Beckrl]

Hey Beckrl, YES how many are there? I always heard there were 12, Maybe we should count them! Lets go to Revelation 7
Re 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
(1) Re 7:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
(2) of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
(3) of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
(4) Re 7:6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
(5) of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
(6) of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
(7) Re 7:7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
(8) of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
(9) of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
(10) Re 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
(11) of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
(12) of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
(13) --- Where is DAN He is a son too
TWTaylor note I started to go to Genesis, But I think there are 14

Just before Jacob died, he pronounced benedictions. Judah was assigned the role of leader. Jacob predicted Zebulun would live by the coast. Three of the sons, Reuben (the first-born), Simeon and Levi were scolded; the last two for their massacre of the people of Shechem. Their sister Dinah had been raped by a man of Shechem and Simeon and Levi had exacted what they considered appropriate revenge. Reuben was criticized for sleeping with one of his father's concubines. As punishment, Levi was not assigned a territory, but each of the other brothers was. This should mean 11 tribes, but Joseph received two portions (which should have been the right of the eldest son), one in the name of each of his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.






The "sons" and tribe names are:

• Eastern
• Judah
• Issachar
• Zebulun
  Southern
• Reuben
• Simeon
• Gad
  Western
• Ephraim
• Manesseh
• Benjamin
  Northern
• Dan
• Asher
• Naphtali

Although Levi was dishonored by being denied territory, the tribe of Levi became the highly honored priestly tribe of Israel. It won this honor because of its reverence for God during the Exodus.
But how is the tribes related to the four beast?

[stupes]

There have been a lot of threads lately TRYING to link Rome to the fourth beast. However the fourth beast is a demonic kingdom of Satan upon the earth in the final days.

The miry clay verses the potter's clay

Miry clay and the ten toes does not represent a revived Roman Empire. It represents the future demonic kingdom which will pervade the earth prior to the coming of Christ.

Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided

Potter's Clay and Iron do not mix, but they will be divided from each other. Why can't they mix? Side note, try at home to mix a clump of clay with iron it will neither mix nor stick to the metal.

Potter's clay is a reference to believers, God is the potter, we are the clay....

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

So there is a prophetic understanding in which Daniel is saying here. The fourth kingdom is of iron and clay as we shall see part "potter's and part "miry". The potter's clay is that part which shall not mix.

It is divided because under the fourth beast when a person of fierce countenance arises (little horn) people need to chose whom they will serve; God or mammon, Mark or no Mark, beast or Christ. The potter's clay represent those who will not mix with this system and fornicate with this whore nor receive his mark The potter's clay is the believers which shall be on earth during this time. This clay cannot mix.

Now, let's go to the clay which shall mix......

Dan 2:41 but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Miry - full of, or having the nature of mire; swampy. covered with mire; muddy. "miry clay" or better termed "mud" can mix and stick to iron. You cannot mold mud thus this is not molded by God.

So where does this "miry" clay come from? The pit.

Ps 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

Their father is the devil and molded after him....

Now we see this "miry" clay mingle with the seed of men. Interesting. The understanding is that this is the demonic indwelling; miry clay from the pit + the seed of men.

Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves * with the seed of men:


"As in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be".


In Christ, Mark.

I believe we have seen Rome divided amongst itself throughout the centuries. The Holy Roman Church always tried to unite the kings of Europe under itself. But the kings wanted the power over the church - so we have that division. And we also see the rival kings throughout Europe vying for power. Some almost united the empire - like Charlemagne. And others certainly tried to do it by force - Napoleon, Hitler, Bismark, Wilhelm II. It was no coincidence that many of these short empires were called the Holy Roman Empire. It is certainly in the spirit of Rome. In my opinion. It's manifest destiny - ever pushing west......

[ross3421]

[SIZE=3]
But how is the tribes related to the four beast?

God's kingdom government

Land

God has a government which shall be ruled by kings, thus he is literally the king of kings. There will be 12 kings which shall be over 12 tribes, then another 4 kings with rule over 1/4 or 3 tribes each. On top of that you have one king over the land.

City

You have 7 additional kings which shall be rule over the church. Then of course we have the king of kings which shall be over the entire kingdom.



So the four beast are 4 kings which shall rule over the tribes of Irsael. Likewise Satan's kingdom copies the same structure.


Mark

[T W Taylor]

Hello Beckrl,
Quote - Just before Jacob died, he pronounced benedictions. Judah was assigned the role of leader. Jacob predicted Zebulun would live by the coast. Three of the sons, Reuben (the first-born), Simeon and Levi were scolded; the last two for their massacre of the people of Shechem. Their sister Dinah had been raped by a man of Shechem and Simeon and Levi had exacted what they considered appropriate revenge. Reuben was criticized for sleeping with one of his father's concubines. As punishment, Levi was not assigned a territory, but each of the other brothers was. This should mean 11 tribes, but Joseph received two portions (which should have been the right of the eldest son), one in the name of each of his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.

Hey Beckrl, I missed - Judah was assigned the role of leader But you know how my eyes are. But I see that Ephraim took the firstborn place from Reuben and Manasseh took Simeon’s second born place When Israel adopted them.

Don’t the firstborn take the role of leader?
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.

In Genesis 48 Israel adopted them and gave them the blessings.
Ge 48:5 "And now your two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

Here in genesis 29:32 and33 we find that Reuben was born first and Simeon was the second born. ( 1st and 2nd )
Ge 29:32 So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, "The Lord has surely looked on my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me." Ge 29:33 Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, "Because the Lord has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also." And she called his name Simeon.

Quote - As punishment, Levi was not assigned a territory

I don’t think having the Lord as a inheritance is a punishment.
De 18:1 "The priests, the Levites-all the tribe of Levi-shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and His portion.
De 18:2 "Therefore they shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance,as He said to them.

Quote - But how is the tribes related to the four beast?

The toes of clay in the 5th beast are 10 of the tribes of Israel. TWTaylor

[Beckrl]

God's kingdom government

Land

God has a government which shall be ruled by kings, thus he is literally the king of kings. There will be 12 kings which shall be over 12 tribes, then another 4 kings with rule over 1/4 or 3 tribes each. On top of that you have one king over the land.

City

You have 7 additional kings which shall be rule over the church. Then of course we have the king of kings which shall be over the entire kingdom.



So the four beast are 4 kings which shall rule over the tribes of Irsael. Likewise Satan's kingdom copies the same structure.


Mark

Mark, thanks I see the connection now. 4 kings which shall rule over the tribes of Irsael. Is that in daniel? Scripture please.

[Beckrl]

Hello Beckrl,
Quote - Just before Jacob died, he pronounced benedictions. Judah was assigned the role of leader. Jacob predicted Zebulun would live by the coast. Three of the sons, Reuben (the first-born), Simeon and Levi were scolded; the last two for their massacre of the people of Shechem. Their sister Dinah had been raped by a man of Shechem and Simeon and Levi had exacted what they considered appropriate revenge. Reuben was criticized for sleeping with one of his father's concubines. As punishment, Levi was not assigned a territory, but each of the other brothers was. This should mean 11 tribes, but Joseph received two portions (which should have been the right of the eldest son), one in the name of each of his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.

Hey Beckrl, I missed - Judah was assigned the role of leader But you know how my eyes are. But I see that Ephraim took the firstborn place from Reuben and Manasseh took Simeon’s second born place When Israel adopted them.

Don’t the firstborn take the role of leader?

Genesis 49:
10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

By rights, the sovereignty belonged to Reuben, Jacob's firstborn. But Reuben had sinned against his father, forfeiting this right, which was then transferred to Judah.

Even thou the first born blessing was given to Ephraim, When the other sons of Jacob plotted to kill Joseph, Judah saved his life. "What shall we profit by killing our brother and covering his blood?" argued Judah. "Let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not harm him with our own hands, for he is our brother, our own flesh."

Quote - As punishment, Levi was not assigned a territory

I don’t think having the Lord as a inheritance is a punishment.
De 18:1 "The priests, the Levites-all the tribe of Levi-shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and His portion.
De 18:2 "Therefore they shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance,as He said to them.

When Jacob was giving his dying blessing. Those that had been unfaithful were cursed, and did not receive a blessing. Those that were faithful received a good blessing. Levi and Simeon were both cursed, and would be scattered among the other tribes.

God continued this punishment. The tribe of Levi was allowed to be priests in the temple, but they were not allowed to own any land. They had no land inheritance, and had to live off what others gave them. The lord's inheritance is that they would live off other's blessing.

Quote - But how is the tribes related to the four beast?

The toes of clay in the 5th beast are 10 of the tribes of Israel. TWTaylor

Were in scripture, are is that an assumption?

Should we conclude just because the image has ten toes that they refer to the 10 tribes of Israel?