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Thread: Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21...Apocalypse or End of the Age?

  1. #1
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    Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21...Apocalypse or End of the Age?

    Hi =)
    Does Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 speak of the Apocalypse or the end of the age? It seems that some people use it as both. How do you know that it speaks of the Apocalypse when the disciples clearly say "end of the age" near the beginning of Matthew 24? What is it speaking of? And if it's speaking of the Apocalypse, how come Jesus says that the generation will not pass until all of these things are fulfilled (or something like that)?
    Thanks =)
    "God created mankind and men created the gods. This is how it is in the worldó
    the men create gods and they worship their creations. It would have been more
    appropriate for the gods to worship mankind!"
    --Gospel of Philip 92 (Author Unknown)


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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekAsianPanda View Post
    Hi =)
    Does Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 speak of the Apocalypse or the end of the age? It seems that some people use it as both. How do you know that it speaks of the Apocalypse when the disciples clearly say "end of the age" near the beginning of Matthew 24? What is it speaking of? And if it's speaking of the Apocalypse, how come Jesus says that the generation will not pass until all of these things are fulfilled (or something like that)?
    Thanks =)
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Last edited by Sirus; Nov 14th 2009 at 08:52 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by GreekAsianPanda View Post
    And if it's speaking of the Apocalypse, how come Jesus says that the generation will not pass until all of these things are fulfilled (or something like that)?
    Because Christ was prophesying about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, not the end of the world. Most of the Revelation concerns itself with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, not the end of time.

    Note that, in the beginning of the chapter (of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem. He was not predicting the fall of a temple in our future, he was predicting the fall of the temple that he was looking right at. That temple fell in 70 AD, marking "the end of the age" of the Old Covenant.

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    So Jesus has already come?

  5. #5
    No. The Olivet Discourse isn't about the second coming.

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    I am referring to what I posted earlier

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward
    Because Christ was prophesying about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, not the end of the world.
    Christ was prophesying about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, AND the end of the world. The events of AD 70, as bad as they were, were a portend of the greater fulfillment which is yet to come.

    For example, I have yet to see any 1st century record of tsunamis, tidal storms, worldwide anguish and terror such as described in Luke 21:25.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    yber makes a good pt above.
    Extend it to include Luke 17 and Matt 25; and you can see the Olivet Discourse is addressing both the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the endtime second coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post

    For example, I have yet to see any 1st century record of tsunamis, tidal storms, worldwide anguish and terror such as described in Luke 21:25.

    Perhaps all of that is to be interpreted spiritually or something. I myself wouldn't do it as such, but how else would one explain tsunamis, tidal storms, etc, if they think this is pointing at the 1st century, especially 70 AD? Perhaps some of the Olivet Discourse may be in relation to the destruction of 70 AD, but there's no way all of it could be.

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    yber makes a good pt above.
    Extend it to include Luke 17 and Matt 25; and you can see the Olivet Discourse is addressing both the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the endtime second coming.

  11. #11
    I am referring to what I posted earlier
    I know.

    Christ was prophesying about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, AND the end of the world. The events of AD 70, as bad as they were, were a portend of the greater fulfillment which is yet to come.
    The Greek speaks of the "end of the age", not the "end of the world". The apostles each believed that they were living on the verge of the "end of the age".

    For example, I have yet to see any 1st century record of tsunamis, tidal storms, worldwide anguish and terror such as described in Luke 21:25.
    The Bible and extra-Biblical sources of the first-century often considered the Roman Empire to be "the whole world", and hence, "worldwide anguish and terror" was, from a Scriptural perspective of "the world", quite possible in the first-century.

    Regarding "tsunamis and tidal storms", I would disagree that that is what Jesus is predicting. I have my reasoning from Scripture, but I'm sure, even after discussion, we'll still disagree, so I'll leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    The Greek speaks of the "end of the age", not the "end of the world".
    I agree
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    The apostles each believed that they were living on the verge of the "end of the age".
    I see you used the words "on the verge", so do you mean they thought 'in their lifetime', or do you mean 'any moment'? They knew well the signs, times, and seasons, but I see no reason to think they thought 'any moment'. Is that what you mean?

  13. #13
    I mean "in their lifetime". That is, Christ prophesied that the "end of the age" would take place during the lifetime of his contemporary, first-century "generation", and the apostles, when writing their letters, when nearing the end of that "generation", each clearly stated several times that the "end of the age" was just about upon them.

    And as I believe, it did happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekAsianPanda View Post
    Hi =)
    Does Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 speak of the Apocalypse or the end of the age? It seems that some people use it as both. How do you know that it speaks of the Apocalypse when the disciples clearly say "end of the age" near the beginning of Matthew 24?
    Because they also asked Him when the temple would be destroyed. I see that question as a different question than the one regarding His coming and the end of the age.

    I don't doubt that the disciples probably assumed that the end of the age would come when the temple was destroyed, but that wasn't the case. We know the end of the age is still future because of Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 28:19-20. Yet we also know that the temple that they asked about that Jesus said would be destroyed was destroyed in 70 AD. So, I don't see how we can conclude anything except that Jesus touched on both what would occur in 70 AD and also on what would occur at the end of the age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    I mean "in their lifetime". That is, Christ prophesied that the "end of the age" would take place during the lifetime of his contemporary, first-century "generation", and the apostles, when writing their letters, when nearing the end of that "generation", each clearly stated several times that the "end of the age" was just about upon them.

    And as I believe, it did happen.
    Do you believe Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 28:19-20 are already fulfilled? And what about this passage:

    Luke 20
    34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world (age) marry, and are given in marriage:
    35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Do you believe the age in question is not the same age that Jesus talks about in Luke 20:34-36, which He calls "this age"? Are people still doing the things that He mentions in that passage that people do during "this age"? Has "that age" or what He calls in other passages "the age to come" come yet?

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